Flying into SNA/John Wayne Airport later, a class C. Any advice?

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smltk1

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smltk1
I'm planning on flying into SNA later during the day for the experience. I have been to several other class C airports in the Los Angeles area, including Burbank (BUR), Ontario (ONT), and Santa Barbara (SBA).

I've been studying everything I can about the airport but I'm wondering if there's anything I should know, especially from the people that have flown in there.

Also, I've heard of a landing fee in effect though I cannot verify if it exists or not. Any fees for a small Censsa 172 that's just landing and taxing back for departure? THanks in advance.
 
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smltk1 said:
I'm planning on flying into SNA later during the day for the experience. I have been to several other class C airports in the Los Angeles area, including Burbank (BUR), Ontario (ONT), and Santa Barbara (SBA).

I've been studying everything I can about the airport but I'm wondering if there's anything I should know, especially from the people that have flown in there.

Also, I've heard of a landing fee in effect though I cannot verify if it exists or not. Any fees for a small Censsa 172 that's just landing and taxing back for departure? THanks in advance.
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I am not aware of any fees unless you stop at an FBO.
If you are VFR you will most likely end up landing on 19L/1R. Even if you are doing an approach in VFR conditions and they are busy they may ask you if you can take the smaller runway.
Since you will be departing the area immed on depature I think you will have to talk to clearance delivery. If you end up landing on 19L go to the end, left on Hotel and right into the "midfield" runup area. If you end up on the other side you can ask for the "tower" runup, which is approx. in front of the tower.

If you are doing this IFR the following is just interesting trivia :)

There are 4 standard VFR departures. "Orange" (330 heading), "Mesa"(220 heading), "Newport" (110 heading), "El Toro" (070 heading). If you ask for a "Mesa Departure" you will get flight following, if you ask for a "Mesa local" you will not be handed off to Socal approach.

greg
 
I am coming in there in a couple of weeks. I have been there once before, with a CFI, during my training. I seem to remember that you needed to know the VFR departure pretty cold (we were transistioning North to the Sacramento area) and flew over LAX. My CFI thought we would be vectored pretty bad coming in, but we weren't. On departure, the controllers seemed to have short fuses (one of them went off on the CFI, because he thought we had used a different departure procedure than we did and accused him of not knowing it). It was a little intimidating for a student, at the time.
 
John221us said:
I am coming in there in a couple of weeks. I have been there once before, with a CFI, during my training. I seem to remember that you needed to know the VFR departure pretty cold (we were transistioning North to the Sacramento area) and flew over LAX. My CFI thought we would be vectored pretty bad coming in, but we weren't. On departure, the controllers seemed to have short fuses (one of them went off on the CFI, because he thought we had used a different departure procedure than we did and accused him of not knowing it). It was a little intimidating for a student, at the time.
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The VFR departure clearance you should get is
"Turn left/right heading XXX, maintain VFR at or below 2400, advisories on fff.ff, squawk nnnn." at some point in your climb the tower will tell you contact Socal. It is your responsibility to remain out of the airspace you shouldn't be in, mainly the LAX class B.

You may have used one of the transition routes through the Class B that requires a specific procedure and that was the issue with ATC. When I go VFR north I go around the east side and below the outer rings of the class B.

greg
 
You are probably right. We did use the VFR transistion through Bravo. It happened pretty quickly and I was not PIC. I think I will follow your advice, when I am there in a couple of weeks.
 
Any east coast people have no idea what these west coast people are talking about? I learned in a class D surrounded by mostly class E and all these transition routes and exclusion areas have me completely lost.
 
david0tey said:
Any east coast people have no idea what these west coast people are talking about? I learned in a class D surrounded by mostly class E and all these transition routes and exclusion areas have me completely lost.
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New York or maybe Boston are about the closest I've seen. SoCal and the LA Basin in particular is some pretty serious airspace.

If you want to go as direct as possible, you've got to be on your toes and able to communicate well with ATC.....otherwise, you're taking the long way around.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
If you park on the East side of the field expect a taxi clearance back to the runway of A, H, C hold short of L.

Unless you can take an intersection departure at J. It can get busy down at the end sequencing the airliners and GA at the C / L intersection and crossing the left side to get to the right runway.

Park on the west side and you avoid most those issues.
 
KSNA is my home airport. Feel free to give me a call if you want some quick tips. I'm on PDTime. 949-285-6582

On arrival, make sure you are on flight following. So Cal approach will help you along. Just make sure you know where the LAX class bravo is. LAX class bravo is the mother of all mistakes. They take it very seriously.

Departure is easy so long as you are not heading through Class B. Sounds like you will be so be ready. The minute you transfer from SNA tower to So cal departure they will ask you how you plan on navigating LA Class B airspace. You will need to get a clearance prior to taxi with clearance delivery. I generally tell them in advance which route I intend to take getting through Class B. Maybe overkill but I think they pass it along to So Cal. DO NOT ENTER CLASS B until you hear the words "you are cleared into CLASS B airspace". Don't assume anything until you have heard those words. If you don't hear them, ask! The controllers that work the LAX class B airspace mean business. They are really by the book.
Be familiar with the approved transition routes. Some of them require that you get to an altitude (can't recall how high exactly) that is very difficult to get to in a short period of time. Especially if you are in a small 172ish airplane. There is a lower route so you might want that one. Buy the paper Chart for the Class B transition. Don't rely on foreflight.

I have done the LAX transition a bunch, and still get nervous. If your prepared it will go easy. If you go out on an instrument flight plan you won't have to worry about any of this. I fly a bunch but my route of flight is generally the opposite direction of LAX.

The LA basin is the most intimidating I have encountered. (never been to Boston or NY)

Gas at SNA is $8 per gallon plus. Tie downs are expensive too. I'm gone many weekends so if you are coming a weekend that I am away, you are welcome to my spot.

Good luck. And welcome!
Andy
 
I've decided that flying into strange busy airspace is sure to come with some snappy comments from ATC. I am just ready for it and focus on avoiding a B bust or similar. I just had Orlando rattle off a clearance that I couldn't understand. I asked them to say the route again and was told to make sure I was ready to copy this time and listen better... Ok fine. Then they assigned me a VFR BR route ( I was IFR) that I couldn't load in my GPS, thank god for foreflight.


In my dealings with SoCal expect the same kind of warm reception and "special" routes.

I try to always file and get the clearance on the ground so you can focus on it prior to leaving. Arriving I ask to follow the slope in even on a visual if other airspace is close and/or I'm unfamiliar.
 
andybean said:
KSNA is my home airport. Feel free to give me a call if you want some quick tips. I'm on PDTime. 949-285-6582http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/#

On arrival, make sure you are on flight following. So Cal approach will help you along. Just make sure you know where the LAX class bravo is. LAX class bravo is the mother of all mistakes. They take it very seriously.

Departure is easy so long as you are not heading through Class B. Sounds like you will be so be ready. The minute you transfer from SNA tower to So cal departure they will ask you how you plan on navigating LA Class B airspace. You will need to get a clearance prior to taxi with clearance delivery. I generally tell them in advance which route I intend to take getting through Class B. Maybe overkill but I think they pass it along to So Cal. DO NOT ENTER CLASS B until you hear the words "you are cleared into CLASS B airspace". Don't assume anything until you have heard those words. If you don't hear them, ask! The controllers that work the LAX class B airspace mean business. They are really by the book.
Be familiar with the approved transition routes. Some of them require that you get to an altitude (can't recall how high exactly) that is very difficult to get to in a short period of time. Especially if you are in a small 172ish airplane. There is a lower route so you might want that one. Buy the paper Chart for the Class B transition. Don't rely on foreflight.

I have done the LAX transition a bunch, and still get nervous. If your prepared it will go easy. If you go out on an instrument flight plan you won't have to worry about any of this. I fly a bunch but my route of flight is generally the opposite direction of LAX.

The LA basin is the most intimidating I have encountered. (never been to Boston or NY)

Gas at SNA is $8 per gallon plus. Tie downs are expensive too. I'm gone many weekends so if you are coming a weekend that I am away, you are welcome to my spot.

Good luck. And welcome!
Andy
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I am coming on the 15th and probably leaving on the 17th. My ultimate destination is the Dana Point area. I wonder if I would be better off staying east of the Class B and landing at CRQ? If I do end up at SNA, I will probably use Atlantic. It will simplify the whole rental car thing. In any case, I probably will go east and avoid the transition, as advised.
 
Captain said:
If you park on the East side of the field expect a taxi clearance back to the runway of A, H, C hold short of L.

Unless you can take an intersection departure at J. It can get busy down at the end sequencing the airliners and GA at the C / L intersection and crossing the left side to get to the right runway.

Park on the west side and you avoid most those issues.
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Depends alot on what you are flying. In light GA pistons, I've always been given 19L for departure. Never had a problem with the 121 traffic, but it is possible that I have just missed the rush.
 
CRQ would be a snap. With no traffic its about 25-35 minute drive to Dana Point. Much more GA friendly. And a beautiful drive down the 5 to Dana Point. Problem with KSNA is that they are really not set up for transient GA (GA services). 19L is dedicated almost exclusively to GA and there is quite a bit of GA traffic. But once on the ground, they really stick it to you for tiedowns, gas, etc. Palomar is much better set up for GA. Although, the folks in the Tower at SNA are just fantastic (including clearance delivery)

Also when heading home, you will be in the system, have some time to ready yourself for the transition route of choice through the Class B.

All that said, its a good experience coming into SNA and you will be better for having conquered it. I actually took my private out of KSNA. Did my Solo right there off 19L.

I did not notice if you are IFR rated. But we get the marine layer here quite often. It generally burns off in the afternoon. Before I was instrument rated I used to land up at Big Bear and wait out the marine layer. Palm Springs can work as an alternative also if the marine layer is solid.
 
andybean said:
CRQ would be a snap. With no traffic its about 25-35 minute drive to Dana Point. Much more GA friendly. And a beautiful drive down the 5 to Dana Point. Problem with KSNA is that they are really not set up for transient GA (GA services). 19L is dedicated almost exclusively to GA and there is quite a bit of GA traffic. But once on the ground, they really stick it to you for tiedowns, gas, etc. Palomar is much better set up for GA. Although, the folks in the Tower at SNA are just fantastic (including clearance delivery)

Also when heading home, you will be in the system, have some time to ready yourself for the transition route of choice through the Class B.

All that said, its a good experience coming into SNA and you will be better for having conquered it. I actually took my private out of KSNA. Did my Solo right there off 19L.

I did not notice if you are IFR rated. But we get the marine layer here quite often. It generally burns off in the afternoon. Before I was instrument rated I used to land up at Big Bear and wait out the marine layer. Palm Springs can work as an alternative also if the marine layer is solid.
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I am VFR. Big Bear would be cool, my dad lives there, but my Cherokee 140 doesn't climb well at high DA :( It sounds like you are recommending CRQ, then? I am not sure about the transition, I was thinking about just going east of the Class B airspace. I will be coming from SBA on my way in and will probably just head out over the Cajon pass on my way out.
 
John221us said:
I am VFR. Big Bear would be cool, my dad lives there, but my Cherokee 140 doesn't climb well at high DA :( It sounds like you are recommending CRQ, then? I am not sure about the transition, I was thinking about just going east of the Class B airspace. I will be coming from SBA on my way in and will probably just head out over the Cajon pass on my way out.
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I wouldn't go down to CRQ. It will probably be a little cheaper for fuel and tie down but you have to spend more time and gas to get there. Atlantic is going to charge you a daily fee or you have to buy their expensive gas. Atlantic is on the East side and very easy to get to the freeway to go south. If we don't have a marine layer and you can get on the road by 1pm drive down Jamboree to PCH and try to enjoy the view. It may take you an hour (40 minutes minimum) to get to Dana Point. If you get here later or you want a faster drive take the 73 Toll Road ($5, I think) to the 5, approx 30 minutes with no traffic.

For the arrival coming from Santa Barbara, I guess your best Class B transition is the Shoreline Route. When you come out the south side turn down the coast and head for the Huntington Beach pier. That's the standard VFR starting point to get into SNA from that area. When you get to the pier turn to 060 degrees and start looking for the airport, you will most likely be switched to the tower when you get to the pier. At first they may give you instructions to do a right downwind for 19R but that is likely to change to cross over the tower above 1200 feet for a left downwind to 19L.

If you go around the east side from the VNY VOR track V186 east to V394 south. They may make you go to Mile Square Park, it's the big mile square park out the left window if you are on V394. If you are lucky they may vector you straight in. If they give some instructions you don't understand just tell them it is your first time into SNA, they will most likely be gentle.

In either case, I think a climb to 5500 leaving SBA will work. Don't know if you have been to Santa Barbara before but it seems everytime I have left there they make me fly runway heading for several miles out over the Pacific before letting me turn back.

greg
 
Good info. I fly into SBA every couple months and yes, the departure procedure is pretty consistent. It does give you a scenic view of the coast :)
 
I am leaving tomorrow afternoon for SBA and then flying to SNA on Friday afternoon via the Coastal Route. The route back on Sunday to LHM will probably use the Coastal Route, as well and then cross the mountains at the Grapevine (I5). Hopefully the marine layer will cooperate, but my flying will all be in the afternoon.
 
John221us said:
I am leaving tomorrow afternoon for SBA and then flying to SNA on Friday afternoon via the Coastal Route. The route back on Sunday to LHM will probably use the Coastal Route, as well and then cross the mountains at the Grapevine (I5). Hopefully the marine layer will cooperate, but my flying will all be in the afternoon.
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Looks like we will be having the Marine layer through the weekend. Today should be the worst, I am 3 miles from the airport and it is still OVC, the forecast is for late AM clearing after today. Enjoy the flight and your stay.

greg
 
river_rat said:
Looks like we will be having the Marine layer through the weekend. Today should be the worst, I am 3 miles from the airport and it is still OVC, the forecast is for late AM clearing after today. Enjoy the flight and your stay.

greg
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Thanks for the first hand observation.:)
 
Thanks, I can probably just keep up with ForeFlight, though :) It looks like SBA won't clear until mid to late afternoon today, but I am planning on getting there around 6:00, so I should be OK.
 
Uneventful flight to SBA and I greased the landing (too bad I was the only witness, other than the controller). Tomorrow I need to get my son's stuff from his dorm to storage and then I will test my skills in the L.A. Airspace.
 
John221us said:
Uneventful flight to SBA and I greased the landing (too bad I was the only witness, other than the controller). Tomorrow I need to get my son's stuff from his dorm to storage and then I will test my skills in the L.A. Airspace.
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Moving stuff is always fun, at least it is a cool day.
I remember the year I spent at UCSB, too much Ultimate Frisbee not enough studying.

I hope the marine layer lets up more than the forecast so you can get out of there.
 
I went in and out of there a couple times today IFR. Great controllers, and besides a funky routing it was a non event.
 
DavidWhite said:
I went in and out of there a couple times today IFR. Great controllers, and besides a funky routing it was a non event.
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I don't have my IR. I ended up moving stuff for three of them and didn't finish until 6:00. SBA cleared, but SNA was at 2,200 feet and predicted to drop to 1,500 by the time I got there, so I ended up driving it. Over a 4 hour drive in stop and go traffic.
 
SNA is really not that big a deal - very busy for sure. Remember you have airlines departing for places like Chicago and New York from 5700' . . . .a 'short field' for sure.

It is likely that from the NE/N/NW arrivals that you will be told to proceed direct Mile Square Park - which is, wait for it, a mile square park. Mostly.

Then you are vectored to usually 19L for landing - if you are closed traffic they'll keep you in 19L. Then almost all GA departures are on the 2700' 19L.

If you state that you are unfamiliar or 'first time to this airport' they will pay more you more attention . . . . ATC does not want you to screw up since it makes their job easier.
 
Do you know where in KSNA (John Wayne Airport) I can park to pick up and friend?
I can't find GA parking and called couple of FBOs and they are charging over $30 just for parking and providing any services. Do they have any GA transient parking ?
 
odachoo said:
Do you know where in KSNA (John Wayne Airport) I can park to pick up and friend?
I can't find GA parking and called couple of FBOs and they are charging over $30 just for parking and providing any services. Do they have any GA transient parking ?
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Call the dude from earlier in this thread and ask if he can tag your friend onto the airport in some discreet location, and borrow an unused tiedown for 5 minutes.

If you don't do this, I'd slightly favor Atlantic over Signature.. they're a little less "rapey" with the fees.
 
I don't know what direction the OP is coming from, but I used to fly roundtrip from Napa (KAPC) to KSNA, both VFR and IFR, 2-4 times a month and never had any problems. When VFR, I simply flew direct Van Nuys (VNY) and then took the Hollywood Park Route (HPR) through the Class B (bearing 140 from VNY at 9500'). All you need to do is call SoCal approach about 10 miles north of Van Nuys for flight following and the class B clearance along the HPR. Once you reach the southern terminus of the HPR over the Queen Mary, you'll get your vectors and descents from ATC. They normally drop you to 2000-2500' and have you follow the shoreline to the Huntington Beach Pier, at which time they hand you to the tower and in you go.

Going home, I simply told clearance delivery that my destination was KAPC and I wanted the HPR at 9500'. My takeoff clearance would normally be: turn R heading 220, climb and maintain 2400', departure frequency xxx.xx, squawk xxxx. Departure would then vector me back up the shoreline to the HPR and off I went. You just need to be sure you can enter the HPR at 9500' because it's a published VFR transition through the Class B and them's the rules.

There's another published VFR transition through the Class B that takes you up the coast if you're heading towards Malibu, Santa Barbara, etc., but I've never used it. Everything you need to know is on the LA Terminal Chart. Be sure to have that and the LA Sectional on board.
 
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schmookeeg said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Call the dude from earlier in this thread and ask if he can tag your friend onto the airport in some discreet location, and borrow an unused tiedown for 5 minutes.

If you don't do this, I'd slightly favor Atlantic over Signature.. they're a little less "rapey" with the fees.
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Yeah, I agree. Only reason I went to Signature was because my friend there could get my parking waived. Also prepare to get scowled at by the line guys.
 
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