Flying clubs

JCranford

JCranford

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JCranford
OK, so maybe I'm missing some salient point about the advantages of flying clubs, so enlighten me.

I was looking at options for clubs in my area. Initial costs, monthly fees, and hourly fees are all over the place.

One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

And then theres the 15 person club with a fleet of ONE plane. Huh?

Help me out. What am I missing?
 
Nothing.

Some area a good deal, most I've seen are not.

Only clubs that often seem to make sense are glider clubs.
 
so far I haven't found a local club that really makes sense for me to join either.
 
For $9,000 down and finance the rest for 10 yrs at 4%,
And throw in $1,000 for insurance and $400/month for a hangar,
You could afford a $12,000 airplane. Would you fly that?
Especially since that doesn't include any maintenance or fuel.

Personally, I think the best method is to buy the airplane you like and find "A" suitable partner to help you cut your fixed expenses. So far I have done the first part, but I have not found (or looked for) a partner yet.


JCranford said:
OK, so maybe I'm missing some salient point about the advantages of flying clubs, so enlighten me.

I was looking at options for clubs in my area. Initial costs, monthly fees, and hourly fees are all over the place.

One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

And then theres the 15 person club with a fleet of ONE plane. Huh?

Help me out. What am I missing?
Click to expand...
 
JOhnH said:
For $9,000 down and finance the rest for 10 yrs at 4%,
And throw in $1,000 for insurance and $400/month for a hangar,
You could afford a $12,000 airplane. Would you fly that?
Especially since that doesn't include any maintenance or fuel.

Personally, I think the best method is to buy the airplane you like and find "A" suitable partner to help you cut your fixed expenses. So far I have done the first part, but I have not found (or looked for) a partner yet.
Click to expand...

That's just shy of a Grumman AA1 or a 150, yeah I would fly that, I have flown planes like that, they are perfect for what most GA people actually end up doing what's the problem?

Mx is no major issues with owner assist annuals.

A AA1 or C150 is a better choice for most compared to being a partner or joining a expensive club.

400mo hangar and 1k year insurance is a little steep IMO.
 
If that is the type of plane that you are happy flying, then that would be a better option than joining a club. I have no problem with that at all. But I doubt that is the type of plane the club is offering and you have to compare apples to apples.

Oh, my hangar rent is $396/month for a very basic T-hangar.
Insurance for my 172 was about $800/year with over 600 hours in type. But my Bonanza runs over $2k with less than 100 hrs in type.

If the OP really wants to save money, and he doesn't "need" the G1000, the he could buy the Grumman AA1 AND find a partner. That would be cheaper than buying a fishing boat.

James331 said:
That's just shy of a Grumman AA1 or a 150, yeah I would fly that, I have flown planes like that, they are perfect for what most GA people actually end up doing what's the problem?

Mx is no major issues with owner assist annuals.

A AA1 or C150 is a better choice for most compared to being a partner or joining a expensive club.

400mo hangar and 1k year insurance is a little steep IMO.
Click to expand...
 
OK, good info so far. I *thot* I could add... :wink2:

I *might* be willing to partner with ONE person, but its still a partnership, and the only ship that wont float is usually a partnership!

As for the math on the financing, that wont work either. I have no current debt, and I have no intention of ever going back into debt. So any plane I buy will be a cash deal anyway.

Keep the opinions coming, maybe somebody has a different answer.
 
JOhnH said:
But I doubt that is the type of plane the club is offering and you have to compare apples to apples.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately at one of the clubs I looked at, that is exactly the type of plane the club is offering!
 
JCranford said:
Unfortunately at one of the clubs I looked at, that is exactly the type of plane the club is offering!
Click to expand...
Then I see what your problem was.

I still say a two person partnership is the right way to go. Of course that comes with several caveats. You both have to have very similar habits and philosophies and you both have to be flexible regarding the other guys wishes. And you still need a firm contractual understanding about maintenance, operations and eventual dissolution of the partnership.
 
JCranford said:
One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.
Click to expand...

What kind of plane in this "club"? If it's a 152, terrible deal. If it's a Cirrus or an A36 Bonanza, maybe not so bad. Lots of room in between.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

Help me out. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

On the low fees and 5 airplane club, what type of planes?

As for what you're missing, I assume the other rental option is from a flight school - so for the extra $20 you get to schedule around flight students and instructors, probably catch a bit of flak taking the airplane overnight, maybe have to fly it every 30 or 60 days or face a "checkout" with the flight school CFI, etc. With the club option you shouldn't have to deal with that stuff for the most part. But not all clubs are created equal, so there may be more or less benefits to you.
 
In most cases, for the same money, a club arrangement will usually get you a little better quality of aircraft than a straight rental. The pilots will tend to care for it better than a rental because of the pride of 'ownership'. This often nets a few less maintenance squawks -- worth more for the reduced downtime than for dollars saved.

Club are also much easier than rentals to arrange RON away from base, particularly longer term (like a one week flying vacation) without daily minimum usage common on rentals.

A club is a little more convenient because you leave an iPad/FF or portable GPS in the aircraft, rather than wire up and arrange things the way the pilot wants them when he takes the rental.

I'd agree that 15 pilots to one plane seems a bit much. Until you realize that half of those 15 don't really fly the plane (those are usually the clubs with low monthly, and hourlies that rival rentals -- it costs little to stay a 'member' even if not flying, so people stay on even though -- or because -- they don't fly). Three of the 8 that do fly are retired and fly during the week. The other 5 are weekend flyers. All in all it works out. Which is kind of the point for clubs -- there is no one right formula. You have to have a mix of people who have compatible use of the asset. If all 15 want to fly the one Saturday its VFR, then many will be unsatisfied.

On the other hand, its usually not a simple matter of pilots/planes ratio for a multi-plane club. Say one plane can work for 6 pilots, but maybe not as well for 10. So 6/1 is a workable ratio. The probabilities are such that adding a second plane can let you effectively service more than 6 more pilots, maybe as many as 15. If one pilot takes a club's one plane, the resource is exhausted and all the other pilots can't fly. When you add a second resource, the likelihood of two pilots taking both planes and a third pilot wanting to fly at the same time is less than the likelihood of a second pilot wanting to fly, even given the same pilot/plane ratio. So you can increase the pilot/planes ratio above the one plane club without running into trouble. It kind of sounds like alchemy, but it works, especially if the planes are interchangeable (not a 172 and a twin).

The best bit of due diligence when considering joining a club is to ask for access to their scheduling utility. Most systems will let them grant visitor access to view the schedule but not make a reservation. Imagine you wanted to fly this weekend (it's Tue as I write this). Is the plane free? How far in advance do you have to book.

Some clubs, particularly larger ones, but smaller partnerships as well, also have a social component. Trading off safety pilot duties; $100 pancake runs; joint trips to fly-ins and/or airshows. This can come down to compatible personalities to work well.

As for the "better than we deserve stuff", consider this is a toy purchase, not any sort of investment or real business partnership. Personalities are important for many reasons. You're giving up some freedom for reduced costs and access, but you're gaining a great deal more than straight rental. Unless you do have a rental situation that provides everything I've discussed, in which case grab it, nurture it, and keep it.
 
I find that FBO rentals are fine for training, but suck for anything that involves leaving the touch 'n go pattern.
 
Check out www.RFCDallas.com

Better rates than you can get renting, and better planes, too. 3x nice Bonanzas, a great Arrow and a very reasonable Cherokee 180. Non-profit, very efficiently-run.
 
JCranford said:
I *might* be willing to partner with ONE person, but its still a partnership, and the only ship that wont float is usually a partnership!
Click to expand...

I love that sane, use it a lot in dealing with business... however on plane ownership that's just not the case. I'm 9 months into a 50/50 equity partnership on a 172. It's been fantastic. The key is you get along with the individual and have a co-ownership written out to include everything humanly possible. All you really have to worry about in flying it is text the other guy first, log the time in the aircraft book and make sure it's full of gas when you put it away. All fixed costs and maintenance items are split unless it's the other persons fault... ie I broke a Nav light while cleaning... so I bought a new one. It's a new engine so assuming we put another 1900 hours on the engine before we sell it the cost to overhaul will be prorated accordingly... I might pay 60% of the cost and he pays 40%... otherwise when we sell it or if we bring more partners on we can adjust it then. On this plane if we had say 4 partners the buy in would of been $20K or so, monthly would be about $125/mo and so far this year you would of been asked to spend $500 on maintenance which included the annual... hourly is whatever it costs you in gas/oil.

Added note: So I'm the plane babysitter and take care of the maintenance and maintain a general ledger on it. With that I also periodically enter what I've spent on fuel and associate that with the hours I've flown. Last time I did that I was at $98/hr total operating costs (Not including cost of plane and upgrades we did). As I fly more, assuming no major MX costs this will go down. Cost of gas averaged just under $30 an hour.
 
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SCCutler said:
Check out www.RFCDallas.com

Better rates than you can get renting, and better planes, too. 3x nice Bonanzas, a great Arrow and a very reasonable Cherokee 180. Non-profit, very efficiently-run.
Click to expand...

Holy crap. I want to move to Dallas just to join that club.
 
JCranford said:
OK, so maybe I'm missing some salient point about the advantages of flying clubs, so enlighten me.

I was looking at options for clubs in my area. Initial costs, monthly fees, and hourly fees are all over the place.

One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

And then theres the 15 person club with a fleet of ONE plane. Huh?

Help me out. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

I don't know your area, but that club wouldn't exist where I live. Those prices are pretty steep.

The club I joined was a nice fit for me. It was a $4500 buy in (ownership) that includes the plane and the hangar. The monthly fee was just bumped to $40/month and we charge $70/hr tach (wet) to fly. If we have a major expense, we just assess the members $25/month until we get it covered. It rarely lasts more than a couple months. There are 16 members, which I have to admit gave me pause initially, but there are only a handful of guys flying regularly. The rest get their required time in every 6 months and an occasional nice wx flight. In three years, I can count on one hand where I couldn't get the plane when I wanted it.

I've done the math versus the other clubs with regards to hourly and monthly costs and I'm way ahead of the game already even with the big buy in.

There are a handful of guys in our club that have talked about doing the shared ownership thing on a smaller scale, but we just haven't been able to put it together.

I hope you find something that works for you.
 
ScottK said:
The monthly fee was just bumped to $40/month and we charge $70/hr tach (wet) to fly.
Click to expand...

In a club what's the benefit of using a 'wet' rate vs just having them fill it up? Is it a hedge mechanism for MX holdbacks?
 
JCranford said:
OK, so maybe I'm missing some salient point about the advantages of flying clubs, so enlighten me.

I was looking at options for clubs in my area. Initial costs, monthly fees, and hourly fees are all over the place.

One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

And then theres the 15 person club with a fleet of ONE plane. Huh?

Help me out. What am I missing?
Click to expand...


First reaction:

Welcome to New Mexico and how did you find a place that cheap.
Then, I realized that you are only a neighbor.
(But your experience is typical of what I found here)
[[ too bad, so sad. And to make things worse, FBO seem to be depleting their fleets -- so there must be a conspiracy to encourage outright ownership or ... ]]
 
My share I am trying to sell in my 1968 Cherokee 140 is CHEAP!!! $3,500 buy in and $70 per month. Then it's only $60/hr wet... saved me a ton of money!!

Anyone in Central Indiana want it ?? :yes:
 
Maybe I should start a new thread, but does anyone have a copy of a two-person partnership agreement they wouldn't mind sharing?
 
I belong to Plus One Flyers in San Diego and have access to something like 90 planes at 4 area airports - it is great for training and cross country machines in my case since the Yak is not exactly suitable for family travelling.

But, Plus One is among the largest if not the largest flying clubs in the country, has excellent rates (for the planes I am interested in flying), pretty good maintenance, awesome owners and a low buy-in/monthly.

Look around and maybe even start a club or seek a partner or two and make it work.

'Gimp
 
JOhnH said:
If that is the type of plane that you are happy flying, then that would be a better option than joining a club. I have no problem with that at all. But I doubt that is the type of plane the club is offering and you have to compare apples to apples.

Oh, my hangar rent is $396/month for a very basic T-hangar.
Insurance for my 172 was about $800/year with over 600 hours in type. But my Bonanza runs over $2k with less than 100 hrs in type.

If the OP really wants to save money, and he doesn't "need" the G1000, the he could buy the Grumman AA1 AND find a partner. That would be cheaper than buying a fishing boat.
Click to expand...

True, but for most folks flying solo in a 172 or PA28, or maybe +1 they would be better off in a AA1 or a 150.

That's a lot of a hangar, I've never paid over 200, current hangar could fit a 208B and is 200, insurance is just over 2k (first year, near no amphib time)for a near 200k amphib, last annual was under 900.
 
I think some clubs focus on value - finding the cheapest way to get their members into the sky - while others focus on having really nice aircraft and amenities. If the club is well run, then either way the cost of joining and flying is going to be no more than the cost of ownership split between the club members. But you get what you pay for. Do you want to fly for cheap in well-used Cessnas, or in style with a Cirrus or Bonanza?

I belong to a club that is value focused. We have 3 Cessnas of mid-seventies vintage owned by 60 members. They are clean and well maintained but not overly tricked out with glass avionics (they all have Garmin 430's and one has an Aspen). We park them on the ramp to save the cost of hangars, and the only extra costs that we have to absorb are for scheduling software, officer compensation in form of a half dozen comped flight hours a month, and a few $ for an occasional pizza party or BBQ. We get all of that done for $65/month and $85-90/hour for a 172 or about $130 for the 182.

Some things that may not be obvious when comparing to a for-profit rental aircraft: Rental aircraft are frequently charged out on the Hobbs meter, whereas our club is based on tach time (typically about 20% less hour-for-hour). Also the FBO may be required to add sales tax (9.5% in WA), whereas the club is not. And finally, the initial fee to join is normally at least partially refundable when you leave the club. With my club it is fully refundable.
 
If I get back into flight there's a very nice club here in SoCal......$2,500 buy in, $130 a month and a primo 172, 182, Warrior 235 all professionally maintained. About 20 members with 5 openings and no problem flying when you want. Wet on the 172 is $75 an hour. No overnight charge for a few days on vacation.......very liberal all the way.

Back in the 90's my son belonged to a club with one tired 172 and 13! members, which I thought would be a nightmare. Turned out he had no trouble flying all he wanted.....so something to think about. Most guys in these clubs apparently fly very little.
 
I was going to join one locally but they were unresponsive to emails, wouldn't post a phone number, and then decided I couldn't join until some hours after my private (not all that unreasonable).

So, I found a 172, financed at a really great interest rate with zero down via lightstream, my payment is less than my car payment, and I charge myself $50 an hour to fly and sock it away in a savings account
 
The trouble with buying in is selling out. Be sure you know your exit conditions before you get in.

I'm not a fan of clubs that require buying in. I've previously described the Wings club south of Raleigh NC - $200 application fee, $300-$1600 deposit depending on the airplane you're going to fly (152 to Mooney), then rates ranging from 66 to 156. They recently added a Screaming Eagle that rents for $222. Rates fluctuate with the price of fuel. Upon leaving, you get your deposit back.

So, you can call it a 1800 "buy in" except that the club buys it back from you for 1600 and then you get a mooney for 156/hr.
 
check out my club (I know - it's not close to you) but we think we have a good answer to "what advantage does a club offer"

http://www.tenhiflyers.com/

Also, open for Q&A or critique of club and website - ok, really just bragging 'cause we rolled out a new website recently :)
 
It all depends on how much you fly.

If you fly less then 4-5 hours a month, then rent. Once you add in monthly dues to the hourly costs, it's probably cheaper to rent if you are only putting 3 hours a month on the plane.

For example, in the club I used to belong to (by far the cheapest in the DC area as well), the Cherokee Warrior we had was $104 a tach hour. But the dues were $90 a month. So if you only fly 4 hours a month, that's actually $126 an hour wet. Fly less (which is typical for most people) and it's even more.

That turned out to be more expensive then the Cherokee I rent for $105 an hour from the FBO I trained at. Even when Hobbs and Tach are compared. Tach is all about where it's set. Some planes have the clock/clock at 2200 RPM, which means unless you are doing pattern work, the Tach isn't that different from the Hobbs on XC trips.

That's something most wouldn't think to ask, but know where the Tach clock/clock at.

With that said, my FBO is super laid back, not busy, keeps me at a discounted rate, and lets me keep the plane as long as it's not booked up. I know most FBOs don't operate like that so a club may be the only option.

Run all the numbers going in. Make sure it actually makes sense and make a decision based on how much you actually will fly, not the ideal in your head that's not realistic.
 
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JCranford said:
OK, so maybe I'm missing some salient point about the advantages of flying clubs, so enlighten me.

I was looking at options for clubs in my area. Initial costs, monthly fees, and hourly fees are all over the place.

One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.

What benefit am I getting out of a flying club for THAT kind of money?? Don't say 'aircraft ownership' because its not. At worst its a lease and at least-worst its a partnership with 10 or 15 other people. That's NOT ownership.

One local club had low fees and 5 airplanes, but the hourly rate was almost as much as my current rental rate. For the extra $20, Ill go rent the G1000 equipped plane.

And then theres the 15 person club with a fleet of ONE plane. Huh?

Help me out. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

I am out of town this week... But let's get together Monday evening next week at my clubs hangar and I will share my experience with Metro Flyers based at DTO. I think you still have my phone number..
 
AggieMike88 said:
I am out of town this week... But let's get together Monday evening next week at my clubs hangar and I will share my experience with Metro Flyers based at DTO. I think you still have my phone number..
Click to expand...

Yessir, That would be great!
 
JOhnH said:
Maybe I should start a new thread, but does anyone have a copy of a two-person partnership agreement they wouldn't mind sharing?
Click to expand...

My two cents,

If you are going to go this route I would suggest getting a Lawyer in your area to write one up for you. Sometimes people change when money is involved!
 
Holy cow, I just joined one of the N Texas flight clubs the OP references! I sure wish I had known about RFC before I signed up! The aircraft are light years ahead of my new club's especially the avionics - just wow! And the rates are very comparable if a tad higher (tach vs hobbes). Still, the folks and especially the instructors in the club I joined are really great but wow - hard not to have a little buyers remorse!
 
JCranford said:
One club had a $9000 buy in and $515/month fee. Granted the hourly fee was low-ish, but not THAT much lower than straight rental. For that money I'll buy the plane myself and not share it with anybody.
Click to expand...

What kind of airplane(s) are you getting for that fee?
 
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