Flying at max gross weight

[TangoWhiskey]

I think an important aspect missing from most flight training and aircraft checkouts is flight at max gross weight, and at both ends of the CG profile.

I'd like to get checked out in a G1000 Turbo Cessna 206 that is available for rent at Addison, because it can carry my entire family (5 including me).

However, I must admit to some trepidation with taking ALL of us on board for that first takeoff, when I don't know exactly what to expect from aircraft performance. I know the plane has six seats, good payload, etc., but there's something 'twitchy' in my tummy about those first flights in a new plane in a new configuration--I want to KNOW (not just because the book says so, either) that it can carry the weight of my family, and I want to KNOW what my performance will be. No surprises.

This got me thinking about how to simulate weight without adding additional risk to PEOPLE.

Water makes a nice, cheap, easily disposable ballast. Water weighs 8.35# (roughly) per gallon. A 30 gallon cylindrical tank like this one could be seat belted into a chair could simulate any weight up to 250#. This is sufficient to simulate any weight configuration/CG configuration.

Obviously, I'd want to find one cheaper. Must be spill proof, of course.

What do you think? I think FBO's should have these and include full-gross weight training in their checkouts.

Do you have a better way to simulate this? Sandbags? (Who has those??)

 

[bbchien]

Bundled magazines. I did my Seneca checkout at full gross weight. What an eyeball opener!

 

[jesse]

Just make for damn sure that it's not going to shift in flight.

 

[CJones]

If you know some shooters/reloaders in the area, see if you can borrow several bags of lead shot. Not much chance of it shifting in flight and you can put the weight exactly where you want it.

 

[wsuffa]

Phone books, too. Tie 'em together.

The other possibility is to borrow some jerry cans or 6-gallon plastic camping jugs and fill 'em with water.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Troy:

I don't want to make light of the problem <g>. But if under gross (or at gross) and within CG, the plane should fly fine. May not handle as snappy, but it is designed to fly that way.

Addison is a 7,400 foot runway; that's exactly where one should try things like this. It's not like you're pushing things; you're just up to the limit. Good weather, long runway.

Trim the plane properly for takeoff. As you get to lift off speed, put slight back pressure on the yoke; enough to take the weight off the front strut. The plane will tell you when it's ready to fly; let it! If it's not flying properly, you have plenty of room to close the throttle and land straight ahead.

If you are concerned about landing, carry about ten knots of extra speed over the fence and land down the runway a bit; you have plenty of room at Addison. See how CG changes with fuel burn so you know what to expect as you use up fuel.

I agree, full gross and forward and aft CG limits should be taught in an ideal world, but normally aren't. I've flown my A-36 at the forward CG limit at gross many times. Just needed a bit more speed before lifting off and it takes a little more back force or up trim on the yoke. It flies fine there.

Just don't do things like try this on a short runway. Fly the pattern a few times before you go off on a long cross country.

I know you'll be careful. See how the plane feels at lift off. If control feel is solid and you have plenty of control movement remaining, you should be fine.

Just don't be over gross or in front of or behind CG. I'm sure they have instructors there that have flown the plane at gross.

Best,

Dave

 

[jhempel]

I trained in a C172. My instructor weighs 240, and I weigh 210. We were WAY forward on the CG.

The first time I ever flew a plane with the CG in the middle is when I took my family up for the first time. We were near gross, but with the CG in the middle. The plane used much more runway to take off, but was much easier to land than I had ever experience. I can't tell much difference in flight.

 

[Nav8tor]

Troy,

Water ballast tanks are typically used for changing weight and cg in flight test. As you said, water is cheap and easily disposable, but I don't know how practical they would be for a rental checkout. With the seats installed it would be difficult to find a safe place to put them, and as Jesse pointed out, they need to be secured so they don't move in flight. I wouldn't be comfortable with just the seatbelts/harnesses around them.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Thanks, everyone. I have flown with the entire family in the Cherokee Six. It handled just fine. I know the aircraft is designed for it, as Dave S. said... I guess I should just not worry about it so much and go fly!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks, everyone. I have flown with the entire family in the Cherokee Six. It handled just fine. I know the aircraft is designed for it, as Dave S. said... I guess I should just not worry about it so much and go fly!

Troy:

I don't think worry is the proper term; concern is good. You are very conscientious and want to do things correctly. I feel that's how I do things too. Knowing how you do things is one of the reasons I recommended what I did.

Get a good check out and ask questions. Do a weight and balance sheet and have it checked. If you're within the approved envelope, go ahead and fly. As has been said, on takeoff, in addition to the normal stuff, pay attention to control feel and control limits in ground effect. If you get near a control limit; such as aft on the yoke, roll the throttle off, land straight ahead--you have plenty of runway at Addison. The takeoff roll should take a bit longer as has been said. Make your approach a bit faster and slow in ground effect; you can request a long landing at Addison. Let the plane approach stall a foot or less off the ground and set it down. Position yourself so if it settles early on you, it only has inches to come down. On your first approach, don't do a stall landing. Keep some throttle in and slowly roll it off (drive it on the runway a bit). As you make more departures and arrivals, adjust a bit.

When I began with the P-Baron, I rotated a bit faster than necessary and came in as described above until I began to develop a solid feel for when it was ready to fly and when the VGs would let go on landing.

Best,

Dave

 

[JRitt]

Bags of dog food. The come in different weights, easy to handle (even 50lb bags), easy to stack/configure, and they stay put (unless you are really uncoordinated). You can even use the seat belt to hold larger bags in the seat.

 

[Baron 55]

In my club, we would not sign someone off in a plane like this unless he or she had been checked out including at least one gross weight flight. I no longer teach there, but what I'd do is ask the person checking out to provide some friends [or his family if he wanted] for that flight. If he didn't know enough people or whatever, I'd just ask for volunteers, there were always many people hanging around the school and in fifteen yr. I never failed to find enough. It was usually a real eye-opener to the pilot to see the difference in handling after we'd spent some time doing air- and pattern work with just the two of us.

 

[Nav8tor]

Bags of dog food. The come in different weights, easy to handle (even 50lb bags), easy to stack/configure, and they stay put (unless you are really uncoordinated). You can even use the seat belt to hold larger bags in the seat.

And if you have a forced landing in the wilderness you'll have plenty to eat until help arrives.

(Actually the dog food bags sound like a really good idea.)

 

[JRitt]

I always thought my 172 was easier to land at or near gross than when it was just me. Maybe it was because I wanted to impress my pax.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Troy you are going to put your back out messing with all those sacks or whatever, just find a bunch of your flying friends and tell them meet me at the fbo. Do a pattern with 2 aboard, then keep adding one each landing. You will get what you need, they will have fun.
I did a full load checkout as the very last part of my private, we loaded a 172 with a bunch of airport bums and headed out. It will perform like it is in the mountains....long ground runs, poor climb.

 

[redcloud]

Buy some shot bags at the sporting supply/hunting supply of different weights then you can easily adjust weight loads at each loading site.

Scott

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Troy you are going to put your back out messing with all those sacks or whatever, just find a bunch of your flying friends and tell them meet me at the fbo. Do a pattern with 2 aboard, then keep adding one each landing. You will get what you need, they will have fun.
I did a full load checkout as the very last part of my private, we loaded a 172 with a bunch of airport bums and headed out. It will perform like it is in the mountains....long ground runs, poor climb.

Dave T, I like the idea of adding a person at a time... that helps explore the whole envelope a little more slowly.

Dave S., those are great suggestions, thanks.

Dogfood?! You priced 50# bags lately!? I guess I could take them to one of the animal shelters for a tax-deductible donation afterwards. Meals on Wheels was even deliverying animal food for a while, along with the people food, for the elderly who had pets. I wonder if they still do that?

 

[JRitt]

I have 2 dogs so they would not go to waste. Prices are not to bad $13-$15/50lbs. I actually got the idea from when my DE for my PPL told me to plan a long X-Country and plan on bringing 350lbs of dog food and the two of us (she only weighed 95lbs). It ended up we could only carry 20gal of fuel and would have to make a fuel stop to get to the destination.

 

[cwyckham]

I always thought my 172 was easier to land at or near gross than when it was just me. Maybe it was because I wanted to impress my pax.

That's usually when I screw up the worst!

Chris

 

[58_Super_Cub]

Go buy 50lb bags of corn and sell to a deer hunter when you are done. Or take bake to the feed store.
John

 

[dogman]

Bags of dog food. The come in different weights, easy to handle (even 50lb bags), easy to stack/configure, and they stay put (unless you are really uncoordinated). You can even use the seat belt to hold larger bags in the seat.

Training dogs for a living and getting dog food by the ton this is what i used.

I did his many times in our Six. at varying DA's . But is sounds like you have experienced this in a SIX.

I have a good friend a high time Crop duster who went with me and had me do takeoffs on long run ways at low power settings. That is how he was taught in Crop D. training for heavy weight HI DA simulation.

Jon

 

[Skip Miller]

Thanks, everyone. I have flown with the entire family in the Cherokee Six. It handled just fine. I know the aircraft is designed for it, as Dave S. said... I guess I should just not worry about it so much and go fly!

Well, you should still explore the envelope before you carry passengers.

In my rather extensive (due to my rather short experience overall at that time) checkout in the PA-32 Saratoga II, my CFI insisted I do several simulated short field landings at full gross. Instead of the usual 90 knots on short final, we dialed her down to about 80 knots. Talk about hanging it on the prop! As you say, the aircraft is designed (and certified) to do that, but it is quite an unusual attitude/power setting compared to normal field length landings. I am glad I did that with the CFI the first few times.

-Skip

 

[AirBaker]

With the 206, watch for it to get pretty sensitive in pitch with folks in the back. I dont think you really have to load it up to full gross since 206's seem to fly fine no matter how much weight you put in them.

The 206 always seemed to be a nose heavy aircraft. We often leave a ~20lb bag of shot in the back of the TU206 when no one else is around.

I'd suggest doing the W&B for a full-family trip. Then do another one to end up with a similar CG number. You might find that you don't need all the weight in there to simulate a full plane.

 

[GaryO]

I think an important aspect missing from most flight training and aircraft checkouts is flight at max gross weight,

You obviously did not train in a C150.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Buy some shot bags at the sporting supply/hunting supply of different weights then you can easily adjust weight loads at each loading site.

Scott

Bags of dog food. The come in different weights, easy to handle (even 50lb bags), easy to stack/configure, and they stay put (unless you are really uncoordinated). You can even use the seat belt to hold larger bags in the seat.

I wouldn't be comfortable with just the seatbelts/harnesses around them.

This last one is the key...this stuff needs to be SECURE. If you wouldn't consider them secure for negative-g maneuvers (in an appropriate airplane, of course), you shouldn't consider them secure in a 206 or Cherokee. Accidents DO happen, and not usually when it's most convenient...don't make them any worse than necessary.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Chris206]

Troy:

It will be the same as in the Six. IMHO, both land better with a load. The sink rate will get you, especially in an early 206, but in this late model bird it won't be much of a problem. 206 and power off = brick with wings.

If you really feel better going through a simulation you should do it; however, you will find it is the same ol' thing as in the cherokee. Hold a little power down through the flair and you will grease her on. The practice might be more dangerous than the performance of the real thing.

CJS