Flying at 10k, 12k or maybe 14k with young children

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Bravo

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Bravo
Any concerns if I were to fly my 4 and 7 year olds at this altitude without oxygen? I normally use oxygen above 8k and I know the regs are good, but wasnt sure if there was something that could be bad for children? I cant get them to keep headsets on, so I know they wont keep a cannula in.
 
I've been up to 11K with a 4 year old. No problems.
 
You going on a trip? I'd try to keep it below 10k or so. Even without a cold they can have clearing issues at times. Our 11 Y/O complains about ear pressure equalizing at times, no cold.

If you have to I'd limit the time high and do a very gentile descent. It helps if you land in Denver too.
 
You might want to keep the climb and descent to a modest level, especially if they have a cold or allergies, I would check their O2 levels but would not be surprised if they were higher than yours.
 
I know everyone likes to think their children are special, but they are not, just humans, use the same rules and regs for o2 you would use for yourself.
 
Bravo said:
Any concerns if I were to fly my 4 and 7 year olds at this altitude without oxygen? I normally use oxygen above 8k and I know the regs are good, but wasnt sure if there was something that could be bad for children? I cant get them to keep headsets on, so I know they wont keep a cannula in.
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They do just fine at altitude.

Out of curiosity, why do you use O2 above 8k? Is that all the time or just at night?

I almost never cruise below 8, so if be having to fill my bottle on an extremely frequent basis if I did that.
 
Hey, if it's good enough to use O2 for yourself at 8, then why isn't it good enough for your kids?
 
There shouldn't be a problem ... I routinely fly at 9500 to West Texas and no O2. Never feel anything ... 14K might start a 'tingle' of the senses.

+1 it's the letdown that can get non-pilots in trouble.

Keep the f.p.m. 500 or under down. If anyone starts complaining, shallow up.
 
No, it is NOT okay for some kids. I know because I went through this learning curve. One of my kids was fine, the other two were not. One of them would experience nausea above 10k. Note that if you drive to the top of Hawaii's Mauna Kea (at 13,000 feet plus), you will be urged to not take kids under 16. Tour companies there will not take children for "health reasons". Ponder on that fact. If you google this you will see that that are many references talking to this and the fact that a child's developing brain (under 16) should not be subjected to this. Now every child is different and short exposure shouldn't be a big deal but bear those facts in mind.

You might want to try it out at 10k. One of the surprising side effects of high altitude with some kids is nausea so don't just blame turbulence/bumps if that happens.
 
Guess one shouldn't let kids drink from a hose or ride in the back of a pick up ether...
 
Going to ten shouldn't be to bad.As long as there are no health issues,after that I would put everyone on O2.
 
narchee said:
No, it is NOT okay for some kids. I know because I went through this learning curve. One of my kids was fine, the other two were not. One of them would experience nausea above 10k. Note that if you drive to the top of Hawaii's Mauna Kea (at 13,000 feet plus), you will be urged to not take kids under 16. Tour companies there will not take children for "health reasons". Ponder on that fact. If you google this you will see that that are many references talking to this and the fact that a child's developing brain (under 16) should not be subjected to this. Now every child is different and short exposure shouldn't be a big deal but bear those facts in mind.

You might want to try it out at 10k. One of the surprising side effects of high altitude with some kids is nausea so don't just blame turbulence/bumps if that happens.
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I suppose you have a point. Everyone is different. Some folks have iron constitutions and others get queasy in a car on a winding road.

All I can say is that my two girls have both been flying since babies and never had any issues between 8-12..5k
 
I fly at 11,500 and 12,500 all the time with my 4, 12, and 13 yr. old. No problems whatsoever.
 
More then twenty minutes at that altitude and it'll be Vassar at best. Vassar, think of the shame and humiliation.
 
narchee said:
No, it is NOT okay for some kids. I know because I went through this learning curve. One of my kids was fine, the other two were not. One of them would experience nausea above 10k. Note that if you drive to the top of Hawaii's Mauna Kea (at 13,000 feet plus), you will be urged to not take kids under 16. Tour companies there will not take children for "health reasons". Ponder on that fact. If you google this you will see that that are many references talking to this and the fact that a child's developing brain (under 16) should not be subjected to this. Now every child is different and short exposure shouldn't be a big deal but bear those facts in mind.

You might want to try it out at 10k. One of the surprising side effects of high altitude with some kids is nausea so don't just blame turbulence/bumps if that happens.
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On the other hand, there are no warnings about children on the Pikes Peak Cog Railway. Pikes Peak is 14,000+. I remember seeing many families. I just looked at their website and they even allow lap children.

GROUP RATES
ADULTS $31.00 | CHILDREN (ages 3-12**) $18.00
TOUR GUIDE $0.00
$5 fee Per Vehicle for Parking OR Complimentary Bus Pass
**Children under 2 are free if they ride on a lap.
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There are even school rates.

SCHOOL RATES
K-6TH $10.00 | 7TH-12TH $20.00 | ADULTS $20.00
BUS DRIVER $0.00
$5 fee Per Vehicle for Parking OR Complimentary Bus Pass
Valid only Monday-Thursday, October-May
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People all the time haul their kids of all ages on mountains which are significantly higher than 8,000 ft. The last station of the 'Klein Matterhon' aerial tramway in Switzerland for example lies at 12,530 ft. and is one of the top tourist attractions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Matterhorn Families start mountain tours from there or go skiing.

I've never seen anyone using oxygen in the Alps, even the more chubby tourists seem to do OK, albeit even shorter winded than what they already were down in the valley. ;)

So, I guess your kids will do OK, just sitting in the plane, peeking out the window... :)
 
Thanks for all the good replys! I just took them on their first long trip from Maryland down to Florida. They did great and even had fun with some turbulence acting like they were on a rollercoaster. Im just looking to get a bit more TAS coming home and want to make sure they would be safe not being on O2. On a side note I was very cautious about my decent rates staying at 500fpm or less, even told a controller at one point that i would take vectors or whatever to keep a shallow decent after he instructed me to expedite my decent.


champ driver said:
Hey, if it's good enough to use O2 for yourself at 8, then why isn't it good enough for your kids?
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I think it is, but I know they wont keep it on.

JoseCuervo said:
Any particular reason for Oxygen above 8k?
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I start seeing early signs (white spots in my vision) around 9k, so if I go above 8 I just throw it on so my vision stays sharp.
 
It's worse for them than it is for you. Since you apparently already have an O2 system, get them their own masks and share the beepnefit.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's worse for them than it is for you. Since you apparently already have an O2 system, get them their own masks and share the beepnefit.
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I already have masks and cannulas they could wear, but I know they wont stay on in flight.
 
Kids have the same hemoglobin and the same lungs as adults, even better, they have the ability to compensate for cardiovascular stress that exceeds adults. Unless they are sick, they are not going to be any more sensitive to altitude induced hypoxia than you are.

It has been my experience that everyone in the back of the plane falls asleep once we hit 11,000ft.The key to happiness in the cheap seats is a gradual descent with no more than 500fpm. That works better if you are not IFR and subject to altitude restrictions. The kids dont seem to get the headaches, my wife does so I have offered her an oxygen cannula before.
 
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Bravo said:
I start seeing early signs (white spots in my vision) around 9k, so if I go above 8 I just throw it on so my vision stays sharp.
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If you don't mind, how old are you and are you a smoker?

I've never experienced what you describe and I've gone up to 14k without O2.
 
Didn't I read somewhere that smokers actually take altitude better than non-smokers?

Not that it will make me start smoking, but I thought I read that somewhere ...
 
txflyer said:
Didn't I read somewhere that smokers actually take altitude better than non-smokers?

Not that it will make me start smoking, but I thought I read that somewhere ...
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I would think that they would absorb less oxygen due to damage to lungs, but I am no doctor and could certainly be wrong.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I would think that they would absorb less oxygen due to damage to lungs, but I am no doctor and could certainly be wrong.
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I could be wrong, but I could swear I read smokers start feeling the effects of hypoxia later than non-smokers.

Why that is, I have no idea ..... if it's accurate. :dunno:
 
They will likely be fine, but if you already have the O2 and you are concerned (that is your right as the parent and PIC), just make a game of it or something. Have them chug a few puffs every ten minutes or so. Tell them the wings will fall off if they don't. :lol::D
 
Get a fingertip pulsox (the $39 chinese ones will do) and spot-check saturation.
 
Ron Levy said:
I doubt it, at least, now from a reliable medical source.
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Interestingly, it is true.

Yoneda I1, Watanabe Y Aviat Space Environ Med. 1997 Sep;68(9):807-11

Smokers brains are used to some degree of hypoxemia and the response with the earlier signs like cognitive defects is somewhat blunted. Time of useful consciousness otoh is not significantly changed.
 
txflyer said:
Didn't I read somewhere that smokers actually take altitude better than non-smokers?
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That's BS from an old smoker. I'm in distress at 10k, and I haven't smoked for 20 years.
 
I wonder if people might be remembering that smokers have lower oxygen levels in their blood due to displacement by CO, although the carboxylated hemoglobin reads as oxygenated to a pulse-ox meter. Thus at altitude, the smoker is actually worse off than the pulse ox indicates.

And yes, everyone is different and sensitivity can vary over time in the same person. The summer I learned to fly, I took a trip to TVC at 8500 and felt very tingly up there, enough to induce a near panic attack that prompted me to descend urgently. Yet, I had my current airplane up to 11,000 on one trip from MI to VT last year because of a ZBW radar outage over the 'dacks, and felt perfectly fine.

As far as no warnings on Pikes Peak, people who've spent any time in CO are probably partially acclimated to the altitude already and wouldn't experience as much effect from the thin air as someone who lives at sea level, and who climbed up to 14,000 MSL in the space of 30 minutes. I know that I couldn't have climbed Longs Peak the day I got there, but after living at 9000 for a week, it was not too difficult a climb.

(Back in MI after that, I felt like superwoman for a while, could sprint up hills without even breathing hard.)
 
Someone mentioned "iron constitution" I heard that before about me, and I never understood it until I got around my wifes family, scuba divers and flyers. I really have trouble understanding how people can get sick on a roller coaster, in an airplane or feel weird after diving. My father-in-law explained to me that it was, in fact, everyone else who was normal, and I who was abnormal for being able to go high altitudes, ride multiple rollers coasters back to back after eating, go diving, etc and have no issues (except wanting to do more).

I have to keep reminding myself of this. Flew from NJ back home to MD this morning after the bulk of the clouds left over from the storm last night. It was still bumpy. My wife says "why dont we have barf bags in here"... my first response was "what for"?

So for that reason I now take everything a bit slower. She's by far the most "stable" of her family but i climb slower, check in on her a lot, etc. I would give that a try first
 
azure said:
IAs far as no warnings on Pikes Peak, people who've spent any time in CO are probably partially acclimated to the altitude already and wouldn't experience as much effect from the thin air as someone who lives at sea level, and who climbed up to 14,000 MSL in the space of 30 minutes. I know that I couldn't have climbed Longs Peak the day I got there, but after living at 9000 for a week, it was not too difficult a climb.

(Back in MI after that, I felt like superwoman for a while, could sprint up hills without even breathing hard.)
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Yeahbut many people who go to Pikes Peak are tourists. I was there with my cousin and her husband who live in the Bay Area (California) and they had only been in Colorado a couple days.

Granted, that probably wouldn't be the case for school outings.
 
Everskyward said:
Yeahbut many people who go to Pikes Peak are tourists. I was there with my cousin and her husband who live in the Bay Area (California) and they had only been in Colorado a couple days.

Granted, that probably wouldn't be the case for school outings.
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A couple of days is still a start toward acclimation, a lot better than just flying up from sea level. Also, I vaguely recall oxygen being available on top of Mt. Evans many years ago, don't know if they still have it. I never went to Pikes Peak.
 
This is some good reading on altitude effects.

I've gone into training on this because of my son's scouting activities. Basically you just don't know how someone will react, young/old, fit/not, and each time can be different.
 
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