FLYING A TURBO, HELP PLESE

[dennyleeb]

I asked a lot of questions from other Commander owners about mine between agreeing to purchase and closing. Actually started asking earlier than that as I knew I wanted a turbo.

Denny, the other thing to keep in mind is that *most* turbos are a *lot* happier running at 65% power. They'll run cooler and last longer. Yes, you'll run full power on TO and parts of climb. But in cruise, the 65% range is my guide.

My engine prohibits leaning above 75% power. So not only is it more wear on the engine, but it's also much more fuel burn at higher powers. Again, that's engine dependent.

You can run LOP with some turbos, others not. Mine is carburated, and it's not as well balanced as injectors.

But as Ed notes, smooth, slow movements are the key to long life and avoiding overboost/overheating on the engine.

Thanks

 

[dennyleeb]

Alrighty, then.

Denny, after years of flying relatively simple airframes and (more importantly) powerplants, you have jumped into a whole new pond.. a nice one, at that. With that comes a whole new set of skills needed and bad consequences for bad decisions.

You are attacking several different challenges at the same time - transitioning to an aircraft with a constant-speed prop, and to one with a turbocharger, and each adds its own element of complexity. Your question about MP is telling in this regard.

In your simple trainer aircraft, you basically set power by RPM, and max power is selected by shoving the noise-maker-handle (throttle) all the way in. Now, you can't do that any more.

Power, in a plane with a constant-speed prop, is called out as a combination of Manifol Pressure (that's the "MP") and RPM; in a normally-aspirated engine, the available power declines as you climb and air becomes less dense - hence, available MP declines as well. An example of power settings you might hear from a pilot is "23 inches and 2300 RPM."

With your turbocharger, since you are converting some of the exhaust pressure into higher intake air pressure, your available manifold pressure is higher, on the ground and as you climb. This means, you must be careful as you add power that you do not exceed the maximum allowable MP, which can easily and quickly cause engine trouble ("trouble," as in, "the top just popped off of my number two cylinder"). IN addition, turbocharging is inherently a heat-maker, since you are using hot exhaust gases to spin a turbine, which in turn spins another turbine on the same shaft which compresses the intake air, which in turn makes the intak air a lot hotter (adiabatic heating)... you get the picture.

So, all this by way of saying, we can give you general advice and experiences (Bill's above are a perfect), but it is so painfully true that you must, you simply must, get qualified training on the plane; the time you'll spend just learning the proper operation of the engine and its associated systems (cowl flaps, f'rinstance) will be amazingly distracting, and you'll find for the first eight or ten hours that you are woefully behind the plane; it goes faster than you're used to, and there are a lot more doodles requiring wanging and flashy-blinky things to watch. And, any of them done wrong, and you have a fifty-thousand-dollar-moment. Uninsured.

Awesome plane. You should seriously consider instructional time as noted (and I bet your insurer will require it); and you should really read the John Deakin engine operation articles, which explain the concepts of advanced engine operations better than any of us will ever be able to do.

http://www.advancedpilot.com/downloads/prep.pdf

And, you might seriously consider signing up for, and attending, an Advanced Pilot Seminar ( http://www.advancedpilot.com ), to learn how properly to operate your extremely valuable, complex and expensive airplane engine. The course will pay for itself in saved maintenance.

Welcome to Pilots of America - we can be a crusty bunch, but these folks here will always turn out for you when you need it!

---
Edit:

Man, a lot of responses while I typed that!

I think I will do one of those seminars, thanks

 

[dmccormack]

Checking back in...

I apologize for being harsh. It was not my intent.

Dick Collins has a bit of experience in turbocharged airplanes. The Air Facts series are worth a look: http://sportys.com/PilotShop/product/13627

 

[dennyleeb]

Checking back in...

I apologize for being harsh. It was not my intent.

Dick Collins has a bit of experience in turbocharged airplanes. The Air Facts series are worth a look: http://sportys.com/PilotShop/product/13627

Thank you, maybe I took it the wrong way. Like I said I am just very excited. Looking for any and all tips. I have found that it has been helpfull to me to use diff. CFI's b/c everyone has a diff perspective to learn from. Thats all I am looking for. Perspectives, tips
I am nervous about hurting the engine so I want to learn as much as possible

 

[dmccormack]

Thank you, maybe I took it the wrong way. Like I said I am just very excited. Looking for any and all tips. I have found that it has been helpfull to me to use diff. CFI's b/c everyone has a diff perspective to learn from. Thats all I am looking for. Perspectives, tips
I am nervous about hurting the engine so I want to learn as much as possible

You've gotten some solid advice here, but one repeated element has been to get with someone who knows that airplane and do a Vulcan mind meld.

 

[Ted]

Of course each is different, but the root approach is the same -- show me the differences and provide me with the requisite knowledge and skill to accomodate those differences.

I bolded what my initial response in this thread was.

I misspoke. I meant a CFI with experience and knowing what he's doing with turbos is ideal. The two are not the same, as I believe you know.

Lots of people with experience have no clue. That's the key, a CFI who has a clue.

 

[jesse]

I don't know a whole lot about running airplanes with turbos. I can tell you that I'd be damn excited too if I just bought a T182. Enjoy it.

 

[Anthony]

I don't know a whole lot about running airplanes with turbos. I can tell you that I'd be damn excited too if I just bought a T182. Enjoy it.

Damn straight. Its probably one of the most versatile GA airplanes ever made.

 

[dmccormack]

I misspoke. I meant a CFI with experience and knowing what he's doing with turbos is ideal. The two are not the same, as I believe you know.

Lots of people with experience have no clue. That's the key, a CFI who has a clue.

Right -- and it doesn't need to be a CFI, really.

But the CFI with T experience will should be able to teach the whys and wherefores.

Of course, caveat emptor.

 

[Ted]

Right -- and it doesn't need to be a CFI, really.

But the CFI with T experience will should be able to teach the whys and wherefores.

Of course, caveat emptor.

We are in concurrence.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

From a maintenance/mechanical perspective, is there anything he should be looking out for, checking for in a preflight, etc.? Either to the engine or the turbo equipment itself?

Also, it's been a while, but I vaguely remember discussion in the past about the advantages of being able to independently monitor CHT's for each cylinder, esp. with a turbocharger. Considering the cost of an engine replacement, that's probably an investment worth at least looking into if the plane isn't already equipped.

Anyway, enjoy the new plane.

 

[schmookeeg]

Hiya Denny,

I think you skipped the requisite opening line, which is required in every forum I've been in -- when polling the audience.

"O Masters, Who Own All Knowledge, Help me, An Insignificant Speck"

(just kidding -- mostly -- PoA is better than most forums for that, although this thread started a little rough)

Also the caps didn't help, but you figured that one out too. Welcome to the internet

==

I didn't see if you had much G1000 time prior to buying your awesome machine, and I think "get a CFI" is the default answer for any aviation question. ...why you've received this advice 10x when you've already explained that you have one, and are merely looking to study up in advance of your meeting -- is baffling to me.

You're excited and need resources to research. If you're like me, you're going to collect 100 nuggets of psuedo-trivia and ask your CFI to knock down the 80% that don't apply to your new machine, and you won't be satisfied until he's provided full and complete reasoning for keeping the other 20%.

So let's get started.

If HP/Complex is new to you, you'll need to get going on a few important concepts:

Thermal and Heat Management
Power Settings
Engine Management

...and you will need these topics covered specific to your airplane, which will incorporate how to use the turbo and G1000 engine monitor.

Adding in the Turbo, you get an important new concept:

How not to kill the engine using the Turbocharger (over-boost and too-high CHT/TIT)
and you may as well throw in Oxygen use and Oximetry if you ever take it high, which you will eventually. That's the point of the thing!

...I thought the 182T had an automatic wastegate, but you should read into the system in great detail and get an understanding of how it works ad a functional level. It's pretty cool. The POH will get you started, then research the concepts that were not well-presented by Cessna. It can be as simple as asking google "what is a wastegate??" and you'll get a deluge of answers, many informative.

Last, I would do G1000-specific things. After all, the 182 is still just an airplane while you look outside of it.

For VFR flying, it's cake. The PC Sim and the Instructional DVD came with your plane in the Garmin bag. The Sim is lame, but the DVD, while dry, is very informative. You probably already watched it. If so, you now know where things are, and you know that the G1000, for VFR use, is basically a plane with square gauges instead of round ones.

If you're IFR, you'll want to get very cozy with the GPS features of the G1000, and practice them in great detail. They're fantastic. I recommend a prepared ground course for any IFR work in a G1000.

==

I think that's enough to fill your week while you wait to meet up with your CFI, who will roll his eyes at you when you spout all of this new knowledge at him. Let him, you're paying him to do it. He's just jealous after all.

So here's my advice:

1. For general operational practice, I would join the Cessna Pilot's Association. Not only will you get a warmer response there (because you've already professed love for the Cessna brand, and share that common bond -- which improves civility, and skips the above requirement to supplicate to the forum before asking questions), you'll also get some excellent technical resources, as well as a pool of knowledge to draw deeply from. Also they will all toast your new acquisition warmly. You'll learn about everything 182 and everything T182 there.

2. For the Complex, HP, and Turbo stuff, I would Google up Deakin's "Pelican's Perch" and read everything there that pertains to your airplane. Read the technical stuff twice. Read the Turbo stuff twice. I would read them with a notepad nearby so you can jot down CFI questions. You might email the questions early, because your CFI will have some homework to do himself to get everything answered for you.

Also google up "How it Flies", a free online book which can describe the constant-speed prop to you. Since the CS prop operation is a common question and difficult to explain, let Google run free and find you 100 explanations on the topic. Find one that sticks in your brain -- not all will.

For the oximetry stuff, for extra credit, look up NTSB reports involving loss of consciousness and pilot's misuse of Oxygen. There was a particularly hideous one involving a Beech 56TC which I refer to myself every so often.

While you're in there, research in-flight turbo fires. It's a real thing. I hope you will keep your oil lines and turbo plumbing in the best condition money can buy. Your new 182 has you WAY ahead of the curve here, but let's also think long-term safety. A pre-flight peek at the turbo is time well spent. Your CFI can elaborate for you and point out where things are under the hood.

3. For the G1000 stuff, if you're looking to get deeper than the Garmin DVDs, I can recommend googling up Max Trescott's Books and DVDs. The King course is also decent, but for the money, I found it inferior.

==

I hope that's a start for ya. Your enthusiasm is contagious, and you make me want to go flying today, instead of nursing this "spin training hangover" I'm suffering.

Congrats on the new wings.

And this is only my $0.02 -- feel free to find 100% of my post unappetizing to you, the mob, or the CFI

- Mike

 

[wsuffa]

From a maintenance/mechanical perspective, is there anything he should be looking out for, checking for in a preflight, etc.? Either to the engine or the turbo equipment itself?

Yes. Pay particular attention to the wastegate and exhaust system. A leak in the exhaust before the turbocharger will create a "blowtorch" in the engine compartment and burn everything that'll burn in it's way, including plug wires and fuel tubing. The exhaust pressure is higher before the turbo than it is in a normally aspirated engine.

Likewise, check linkages, etc. to make sure they're intact & free. And look for oil leaks near the turbo: turbos are oil cooled, and they get hot enough to set oil afire.

Also, it's been a while, but I vaguely remember discussion in the past about the advantages of being able to independently monitor CHT's for each cylinder, esp. with a turbocharger. Considering the cost of an engine replacement, that's probably an investment worth at least looking into if the plane isn't already equipped.

There are significant advantages to full engine monitoring, esp when running high power levels (takeoff/climb). Cooling can be an issue.... and monitoring can give early indication of problems. Watch the temp going into the engine manifold, too... this is much less of an issue if you've got an intercooler.

Anyway, enjoy the new plane.

Likewise.

 

[Everskyward]

Right -- and it doesn't need to be a CFI, really.

I just flashed back to that thread where I said I learned a lot through observation, and learning to fly a turbocharged airplane was one of those things. The pilots I flew with were very experienced and flew these airplanes for a living but none of them were CFIs. When it came time for me to get checked out "officially" for the insurance the company hired this CFI who I don't think had ever flown that particular model (C-206). We took off and flew around for about 10 minutes and that was it.

 

[Doggtyred]

Some self study that would possibly help.. and give a big picture understanding is John Deakin's long discontinued series of articles on Avweb.

Turbo Management starts here and its multi-article.
On that page are 4 other links.. on props, manifold pressure, mixture and a combined approach to engine management. If you are in the least bit rusty on complex/HP ops, read those first.

The articles are over 10 years old but they ring true today just as they did when penned.

John Deakin is a big proponent of lean of peak engine operations, but you can still use his knowledge without embracing LOP... If you do decide to use LOP techniques it is IMPERATIVE that you have instrumentation on each cylinder and its very beneficial to have balanced your power generation with GAMI jectors... otherwise its difficult to properly lean in the manner he calls for.. and you can do more harm than good.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I don't know a whole lot about running airplanes with turbos. I can tell you that I'd be damn excited too if I just bought a T182. Enjoy it.

+1 here.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread- there are a couple of Cessna Owner's Groups out there. You may consider looking them up as well.

Enjoy your ride!

 

[Ted]

John Deakin is a big proponent of lean of peak engine operations, but you can still use his knowledge without embracing LOP... If you do decide to use LOP techniques it is IMPERATIVE that you have instrumentation on each cylinder and its very beneficial to have balanced your power generation with GAMI jectors... otherwise its difficult to properly lean in the manner he calls for.. and you can do more harm than good.

FWIW, I've observed that it heavily depends on the engine whether or not GAMIjectors help any. I have been in plenty planes where, right from the factory, all the cylinders peak at the same point. I've also noticed that the parallel valve 6-cylinder engines (which is what you have in the T182) tend to be pretty well balanced from the factory. The 4-cylinder engines tend to be less balanced.

Point is, rather than going out and spending your money, it's worth checking what you have first. What I don't remember is whether or not the G1000 setup has an EGT on each cylinder or just 6 CHTs and a TIT.

 

[AdamZ]

I know not a thing about Turbos other than I don't have one. Andrew Morrison, FyersFan31 here on POA had a great 182T that I think was a year older than yours. He really studied up on the plane from numerous sources. Hopefully he will add his advice and direct you to the sources he used as well. Andrew knows how to fly turbos and break them as well.

Also if you bought the plane from a dealer like Lincoln Park Aviation I think they may even give you a bit of training in the plane, They do a lot of Cessnas. I suppose if you purchased it right from an individual they could give you their opinion as well but it sounds like you went the dealer route. They should have some good resources.

 

[dennyleeb]

thanks for the great replies

 

[flyersfan31]

The turbonormalized system in the T182T is easy to manage. The slope controller works well.

IIRC, takeoff was full RPM, 32". 32" is the top of the white arc. Don't go beyond that. If your engine goes above that routinely when the throttle is wide open, have it adjusted. Mixture full rich.

500 AGL reduce power to 28" climb power, cannot remember the GPH setting for the life of me, could well be full rich.

Cruise - I ended up at 25"/2300/16gph. I used to fly at 26"/2300/14.5gph, but someone far wiser and more experienced than I used the first setting so I went with that. 30,000+ hrs and a lot of that in turbo Cessnas is the kind of experience I listen to. I believe these settings resulted in a TIT of 1585.

I experimented with LOP. Mine flew great. Only lost about 4-5ktas, but fuel burn went from 14.5 to about 11.8, and the CHTs were down in the 320s versus 365ish. Really smooth. Then I got nervous about Lycoming and their antipathy towards LOP ops so I stopped. Didn't want all that data-logging to come back and bite me.

Remember - in a turbo you lean to TIT.

 

[skidoo]

The turbonormalized system in the T182T is easy to manage. The slope controller works well.

IIRC, takeoff was full RPM, 32". 32" is the top of the white arc. Don't go beyond that. If your engine goes above that routinely when the throttle is wide open, have it adjusted. Mixture full rich.

Would you think mine has an issue. After takeoff, I glance back at the MP and it may indicate 32.3". But, I tend to back it down to about 25" shortly thereafter.

500 AGL reduce power to 28" climb power, cannot remember the GPH setting for the life of me, could well be full rich.

Cruise - I ended up at 25"/2300/16gph. I used to fly at 26"/2300/14.5gph, but someone far wiser and more experienced than I used the first setting so I went with that. 30,000+ hrs and a lot of that in turbo Cessnas is the kind of experience I listen to. I believe these settings resulted in a TIT of 1585.

My POH says a normal climb is 25", 2400 rpm, and 16 GPH.

I experimented with LOP. Mine flew great. Only lost about 4-5ktas, but fuel burn went from 14.5 to about 11.8, and the CHTs were down in the 320s versus 365ish. Really smooth. Then I got nervous about Lycoming and their antipathy towards LOP ops so I stopped. Didn't want all that data-logging to come back and bite me.

Remember - in a turbo you lean to TIT.

 

[flyersfan31]

Would you think mine has an issue. After takeoff, I glance back at the MP and it may indicate 32.3". But, I tend to back it down to about 25" shortly thereafter.




My POH says a normal climb is 25", 2400 rpm, and 16 GPH.

32.3 is ok. If it shot to 33 or 34 I'd have it adjusted. you don't want to be looking at the MP gauge nervously during takeoff.

Yeah, that is the POH value. It's how I used to climb. But like I said, a guy far wiser than I (who had taken the turbo'd engine in his T182RG to 3000hrs 3 times) climbed out at 28. Gets you higher, with a faster ground speed, without taxing the engine unnecessarily.

Oh yeah, advance the throttle slowly. Don't just cram it in. 4-5secs on takeoff. Easy, easy.

 

[dennyleeb]

The turbonormalized system in the T182T is easy to manage. The slope controller works well.

IIRC, takeoff was full RPM, 32". 32" is the top of the white arc. Don't go beyond that. If your engine goes above that routinely when the throttle is wide open, have it adjusted. Mixture full rich.

500 AGL reduce power to 28" climb power, cannot remember the GPH setting for the life of me, could well be full rich.

Cruise - I ended up at 25"/2300/16gph. I used to fly at 26"/2300/14.5gph, but someone far wiser and more experienced than I used the first setting so I went with that. 30,000+ hrs and a lot of that in turbo Cessnas is the kind of experience I listen to. I believe these settings resulted in a TIT of 1585.

I experimented with LOP. Mine flew great. Only lost about 4-5ktas, but fuel burn went from 14.5 to about 11.8, and the CHTs were down in the 320s versus 365ish. Really smooth. Then I got nervous about Lycoming and their antipathy towards LOP ops so I stopped. Didn't want all that data-logging to come back and bite me.

Remember - in a turbo you lean to TIT.

exactly kind of info i was lookin for, thank you

 

[dennyleeb]

Then I got nervous about Lycoming and their antipathy towards LOP ops so I stopped.

what do they say?

 

[weilke]

what do they say?

For the longest time, they didn't believe in it and tried their best to discredit the proponents of LOP operation. Just a little while ago, they made a 180 and decided that it is good 'if they tell us how to do it' .

 

[PittsDriver]

Advice from someone that's owned three Lycoming TIO540's and two Conti TIO550's:
- running the engine "oversquare" is the norm. You'll almost always be running a higher manifold pressure than RPM.
- Most engines are equipped with boost waste gates (all of mine were) so over boosting them isn't so much an issue as on older engines. But you still should move the throttle deliberately and smoothly in either direction. If you jam the throttle forward on the runway it'll still surge before it corrects so move it from idle to full on to about a 3 - 4 count.
- Do the oil changes at the recommended intervals or before and get oil analysis done (good advice on any engine).
- It's a good idea to let the engine cool while running for a few minutes. My rule was <1000 degrees TIT which would take 3 minutes or so of idling before pulling the mixture off.

That's the basic kind of stuff but in all seriousness, I would probably get really good buddies with the POH and the manufacturers engine manual and find someone with some T182 experience to go fly with you for a few hours. I don't have a ton of time (1,600+ hours) but it's some pretty quality time in a variety of machines and I'd do exactly what Dan suggested.

It sounds like a late model T182 if it was $250K and I'm sure you'll enjoy it for a while until you want more speed.

 

[flyersfan31]

Then I got nervous about Lycoming and their antipathy towards LOP ops so I stopped.

what do they say?

They say do it and the world will immediately collapse into the size of a pinhead.

Or something to that effect.

 

[weilke]

This may be interesting reading for the OP. Kelly aerospace put some copies of articles in 'Aircraft Maintenance Technology' on their website:

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/articles/Turbocharging.pdf

Doesn't explain the Skylane system in great detail but gives a handle on the different components and terminology involved.

 

[dennyleeb]

This may be interesting reading for the OP. Kelly aerospace put some copies of articles in 'Aircraft Maintenance Technology' on their website:

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/articles/Turbocharging.pdf

Doesn't explain the Skylane system in great detail but gives a handle on the different components and terminology involved.

very good read, get the plane tues I could not be more excited

 

[TMetzinger]

And my advice is the best you'll get -- spend some time and $$ with a qualified CFI that can answer your questions about your airplane.

Absolutely. You just spent more than many people spend on their houses. Get some dual - I would be surprised if your insurance company didn't insist on it.

 

[gemohler]

NO I DROPPPED A QUATER MILL AND DID NOT GET A POH

SMART AZZ

With this attitude towards learning, you'll be dropping out of the sky any day now.


Please, dont fly over zip code 94089 without Emailing me first.

 

[dennyleeb]

With this attitude towards learning, you'll be dropping out of the sky any day now.


Please, dont fly over zip code 94089 without Emailing me first.

NICE!!!!

Read the whole thread before telling someone something like this.

By the way all is going well. I have put about 20hrs on the plane the last 2 weeks. It has been a very very nice adjustment coming from a LSA. The info I got here did help.

 

[bbchien]

Denny, I have about 3000 hours in various turbo'd AC, the last NA aircraft I owned was in 1987.

The key to the slope controller is to understand that it's a cam and linkage affair to the wastegate. When the throttle is nearly all in, the wastegate closes near fully. (16,500). When the throttle is midrange, the wastegate is mid position. When the throttle is closed, the wastegate is wide open.

So on this aircraft, the only independent control of the engine you have is the prop governor. Compare 2500 and 2000 rpm. The high rpm will need the throttle much more closed, which basically "rests" the turbo. Thus the hint for descent....you want a stting with the wastegate as OPEN as you can, to dissipate heat. Therefore choose more closed throttle and higher rpm upon descent.

Although the setup works pretty well, tops about 1200 hours are pretty common. The cure is to run 65% routinely.

This setup is a carbed setup- sometimes they will run smoothy LOP with, get this...CARB HEAT on. In the Seneca (Two TSIO360EB1Bs) the engines are less robust, and I run ONLY 65% except for a minute upon departure. Climb at 65% full gross is about 700 fpm, surface to 19,000. At 65% there just isn't enough happening to fry valves or detonate.....LOP or ROP.

PS This is a setup you don't want to push hard. The power is there only if you need it (but it is there). Fly 150 knots, and you'll have a long, maintenence free ownership. Fly 155 knots and it will hurt.

 

[weilke]

What kind of controller does the T182T use ?

 

[fastair5]

Sounds great Denny...Congratulations!!