Flying a pattern with no trimming

Yes it is and not hard to do. Trim neutral and simply land it. This is true for many light aircraft.
 
Especially in a 172, since their trim forces are pretty light to start.

I wouldn't want to do it in a fully load Cherokee 6.
 
No problem in a 172,would not get in the habit.
 
frfly172 said:
No problem in a 172,would not get in the habit.
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Bingo. The earliest habits we form in primary flight training are the hardest to break later if they need breaking. Proper use of trim and rudder pedals are, in my experience, the top two on that list.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
Is this possible to do in a 172?
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Cessna allegedly designed it and the 152 so they could be flown that way. Per Gene Whitt:

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page5.62C-152.htm#Flying%20C-152%20Patterns%20Cessna's%20way

Last week (9-7-99)I failed a checkride at a certified Cessna Agency in a C-152. I was surprised to find out that with judicious use of initial trim setting for takeoff and power, it is Cessna's standard instructional procedure to negate any use of trim. The C-152 can be leveled from climb at 80 knots just by a reduction in power to 2200 rpm. No trim necessary. The abeam the numbers reduction of power to 1600 and the first ten degrees of flaps gives an approach speed of 70 knots and power at 1500. No trim necessary. The addition of flaps in the turns gives sufficient lift/drag to make this one power setting applicable for the whole descent. The base turn is accompanied by the second notch of flaps. Result is an approach speed of 65-knots. No trim necessary. The full flap condition is applied in the turn to final and the speed drops to 60 knots for the final approach. Keep 60-knots into the roundout and flare at 54 knot by keeping the nose slightly below the end of the runway. By letting students see where they are going we keep them from being frightened..

Insult was added to injury when I found that the C-172N could be flown and landed the same way. according to Cessna I have been flying their aircraft incorrectly for over 30-years. Even my first instructor, who became a factory representative for Cessna, taught me incorrectly by emphasizing the use of trim. This old-dog has learned a new trick. Oh, lordy, I have seen the error of my ways and have a ton of repenting to do. Where was Arenias when I needed him?​
 
Jim Logajan said:
Cessna allegedly designed it and the 152 so they could be flown that way. Per Gene Whitt:

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page5.62C-152.htm#Flying C-152 Patterns Cessna's way
Last week (9-7-99)I failed a checkride at a certified Cessna Agency in a C-152. I was surprised to find out that with judicious use of initial trim setting for takeoff and power, it is Cessna's standard instructional procedure to negate any use of trim. The C-152 can be leveled from climb at 80 knots just by a reduction in power to 2200 rpm. No trim necessary. The abeam the numbers reduction of power to 1600 and the first ten degrees of flaps gives an approach speed of 70 knots and power at 1500. No trim necessary. The addition of flaps in the turns gives sufficient lift/drag to make this one power setting applicable for the whole descent. The base turn is accompanied by the second notch of flaps. Result is an approach speed of 65-knots. No trim necessary. The full flap condition is applied in the turn to final and the speed drops to 60 knots for the final approach. Keep 60-knots into the roundout and flare at 54 knot by keeping the nose slightly below the end of the runway. By letting students see where they are going we keep them from being frightened..

Insult was added to injury when I found that the C-172N could be flown and landed the same way. according to Cessna I have been flying their aircraft incorrectly for over 30-years. Even my first instructor, who became a factory representative for Cessna, taught me incorrectly by emphasizing the use of trim. This old-dog has learned a new trick. Oh, lordy, I have seen the error of my ways and have a ton of repenting to do. Where was Arenias when I needed him?​
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While it may be possible to fly a 172 that way, it is not desirable and not a good habit to build no matter how Cessna designed that particular model. And while it may not be absolutely necessary, it is certainly not "incorrect" to use trim.
 
Ron Levy said:
While it may be possible to fly a 172 that way, it is not desirable and not a good habit to build no matter how Cessna designed that particular model. And while it may not be absolutely necessary, it is certainly not "incorrect" to use trim.
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I'd have suggested you take that up with Gene Whitt, since I have no opinion on the subject (was just answering the OP's question) but it appears Gene passed away a couple years ago:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/contracostatimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=150451291

I remember his posts to rec.aviation.student.
 
You can fly without trimming the aircraft. It puts more pressure on the yoke (or rudder if you have a trim there) and MAY make it difficult to hold a proper attitude and altitude. Proper technique would be to level/pitch the aircraft to your level flight/climb/descent, rotate the trim to remove pressure and hold level/climb/descent. And then you test by lightening your hold on the yoke/rudder.
One would trim to lighten your workload. While not necessary, an extremely good idea.
I have a 4 way trim in the Schweizer I fly. (Talk about lightening your workload!) I would not want to be without, ever! I suspect my instructor will figure out a way to test me on it at some point.
 
Jaybird180 said:
You meant no pilot up front and 2 in the back.
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No, that would be ok, the 182 is a nose heavy *****, if you come in trimmed for descent at 155kts with two people up front and nothing in the back, you better have a strong bicep and Popeye sized forearm or you'll likely do damage.
 
Henning said:
Trim neutral for what speed?
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I believe he means that if the airplane has a trim wheel and a line marked "Takeoff" trim setting, rotate the trim wheel so its mark aligns with the Takeoff mark. Throttle setting is whatever.

At least in the C-152 and I think most C-172 variants I believe one should normally find that with full flaps at POH recommended landing speed, if you glance at the trim wheel on close final that you've set it at or close to the "Takeoff" trim setting.
 
Henning said:
No, that would be ok, the 182 is a nose heavy *****, if you come in trimmed for descent at 155kts with two people up front and nothing in the back, you better have a strong bicep and Popeye sized forearm or you'll likely do damage.
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On the other hand, slowing to approach speed from a Vno descent like that in a 182 has a built-in strong incentive to trim the SOB. It's not pleasant to hold altitude 70 knots out of trim in an airplane with an elevator spring.
 
Jim Logajan said:
I believe he means that if the airplane has a trim wheel and a line marked "Takeoff" trim setting, rotate the trim wheel so its mark aligns with the Takeoff mark. Throttle setting is whatever.

At least in the C-152 and I think most C-172 variants I believe one should normally find that with full flaps at POH recommended landing speed, if you glance at the trim wheel on close final that you've set it at or close to the "Takeoff" trim setting.
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Take off trim is nowhere near neutral, T/O trim has the trim tab deflected down. Neutral is properly the trim tab aligned with the elevator and in a properly rigged plane that should be around a 75% cruise speed with mid CG.
 
The truly useful trick is flying the pattern - takeoff to flare - by only using the trim along with rudder. Learn to do that and you've made some progress.
 
Bill Watson said:
The truly useful trick is flying the pattern - takeoff to flare - by only using the trim along with rudder. Learn to do that and you've made some progress.
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No, no, you don't understand, you're not manly if you don't wrestle the plane like you would a bear. Only ******* use trim...:rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
Take off trim is nowhere near neutral, T/O trim has the trim tab deflected down. Neutral is properly the trim tab aligned with the elevator and in a properly rigged plane that should be around a 75% cruise speed with mid CG.
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That may be, and perhaps I should not have attempted to insert my interpretation of what Jimmy Cooper meant, but the trim wheel setting I mentioned is consistent with that reported by Gene Whitt and my own experience.
 
Jim Logajan said:
That may be, and perhaps I should not have attempted to insert my interpretation of what Jimmy Cooper meant, but the trim wheel setting I mentioned is consistent with that reported by Gene Whitt and my own experience.
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Take off trim is about the same speed as approach trim.
 
In a 172 in neutral trim there's no wrestling it like a bear. It's a very easy forgiving airplane to fly. On a 3000 foot runway it would slide right on easily. I agree wholeheartedly about a loaded Cherokee six, whole different animal. ( or probably even an unloaded 6. They are a real Mack truck.) by neutral trim I mean the hands off trim in cruise. A 172 isn't much different from a 140 Cessna really. I landed mine many times no flaps, trim neutral. Especially if there was a long runway with traffic behind me. Kept it humming right along.
 
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Bill Watson said:
The truly useful trick is flying the pattern - takeoff to flare - by only using the trim along with rudder. Learn to do that and you've made some progress.
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A CFI showed me that once. Had a # of trim rolls he used. I wished I remembered the counts. I thought of experimenting to find it myself, but get bored with pattern work, so I rarely do it.
 
I had a CFI break my trim on me. In fact, he broke it all the way in the full up direction. The next time around the pattern, he broke it in the full back position. The plane was a Tecnam Eaglet with electric trim, so runaway trim is actually conceivable. It was a pain to deal with, but if you fly a slow pattern and switch hands/arms every once in a while, it's really no big deal.
 
An instructor often has to sense when a student is out of trim.

If he suspects it, he may ask the student to let go of the controls to see what happens. A properly trimmed plane will not budge in pitch with the controls released.

Why is this important? There's a tendency to relax pressure when distracted. IOW, if a pilot is holding forward pressure and let's say has traffic called, as he looks and answers the instructor is likely to see the nose go up and the airspeed go down as the forward pressure is subconsciously relaxed. And vice-versa if holding back pressure.

So, put me in the camp that a plane should virtually always be in trim, except maybe in the actual roundout and flare. And this applies in spades to instrument instruction and flying.
 
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