Fly with master switch off to save money?

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MultiMediaWill

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Will
My FBO charges for the airplane by the hobbs meter. If I turn off the master switch during flight do you think that would be an effective way to save money? Of course I would have a transceiver to do my radio calls.

EDIT: I'm not actually going to do this (it's a dumb idea). Just entertaining the idea.
 
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How about you just fly to a nearby airport, siphon gas out of the tanks and sell it. You could maybe actually make a profit every time you fly!
 
Depends on the system. Many use an oil pressure switch and the Master has no effect on them.
 
denverpilot said:
Depends on the system. Many use an oil pressure switch and the Master has no effect on them.
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It really depends upon where that oil pressure controlled switch get its power from

Many are wired direct to the buss. but the master kills the buss. none are allowed by certification rules to be connected with out a circuit protection device.

If the Hobbs meter was installed after factory, it could be hooked up any old way.
 
The real issue is that no matter how it is wired, you would be guilty of stealing and could be putting other renters in danger by putting undocumented hours on the aircraft.
 
maddog52 said:
The real issue is that no matter how it is wired, you would be guilty of stealing and could be putting other renters in danger by putting undocumented hours on the aircraft.
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Well the 100 hour is based on tach time. The tach time wouldn't get screwed up by this. Not sure how it could danger other renters.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
Well the 100 hour is based on tach time. The tach time wouldn't get screwed up by this. Not sure how it could danger other renters.
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If they fly an aircraft with a mandatory AD for inspections at certain hours, for one...
 
denverpilot said:
If they fly an aircraft with a mandatory AD for inspections at certain hours, for one...
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Interesting, though, that while the 91.205 of the regs require a tachometer, it doesn't define whether a tachometer is supposed to show anything more than RPM, such as whether it is also supposed to show total revolutions to date.

And of course no requirement (that I can see) of anything like a Hobbs meter - at least in section 91. Not sure if any of the aircraft related sections have more to say.
 
How about the basic idea that you should always pay your own way? To each his own. Figuring out how to "beat the system" is lower on my list of ways to save money.
 
Considering how most places have you write down the tach time..and cross reference that stuff..I think you'll just find yourself at best not being able to fly the airplane again and at worse talking to a judge.

The fuel consumption also isn't going to add up. Just a stupid idea.
 
Forget about the ethical and moral stuff(what you are suggesting is just right out awful, but such is the way of modern america, let's get something for free, and if somethings occurs that we do not like sue) I am concerned about the safety issues. In my plane, the master controls a lot more than the Hobbs meter, such as the lights, the flaps, the engine monitors, the fuel pump, and indirectly my glass screen(if my master switch is off my avionics switch will not turn on the MFD). So my question is if the honesty argument does not work(and do you not think your FBO will suspicious if you go for a two hour flight and come back with 0.3 hrs on your hobbs, and 1.7 hours on your tach), will the safety argument not change your mind.

I know you said you were not thinking about doing it, but nonetheless you were thinking about it, and personally that worries me.:nono:

Doug
 
There are winners in every crowd :( you may as well rent cars and switch their new tires with the old tires on the car your momma gave you ....
 
Jim Logajan said:
Interesting, though, that while the 91.205 of the regs require a tachometer, it doesn't define whether a tachometer is supposed to show anything more than RPM, such as whether it is also supposed to show total revolutions to date.

And of course no requirement (that I can see) of anything like a Hobbs meter - at least in section 91. Not sure if any of the aircraft related sections have more to say.
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You are still responsible for tracking the aircraft operating time for maintenance purposes. If you have neither a Hobbs nor a recording tach, you would have to keep a log of all flight time on the aircraft for that purpose. However, I suspect that while there is no reg requiring all planes to have recording tachs, those without some other device are probably all manufactured and certified with a recording tach, the removal of which would be an alteration requiring FAA approval, one condition of which would likely be the installation of some other flight hour recording system like a Hobbs meter. I know for example that the Grumman GA-7 Cougar came from the factory with non-recording electric tachs, but there is a factory-installed Hobbs meter wired to the weight-on-wheels switch to record flight time for mainenance purposes.

BTW, most flight schools and FBO's are aware of this not-exactly-new trick, and have their Hobbs meters wired straight to the battery through an oil pressure sensor switch rather than through the electrical master.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
My FBO charges for the airplane by the hobbs meter. If I turn off the master switch during flight do you think that would be an effective way to save money? Of course I would have a transceiver to do my radio calls.
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Sure. You can also save money on cable TV by climbing the pole and putting a jumper on to your service feed.

While you are at it, you might as well run an extension cord from the neighbors shed to your place and effectively save money on electricity.

Who else do you think you could steal from to save you some dough? Let's post those here, too. This site is google searchable, so the general public can easily see how honest and trustworthy us pilots are.
 
Theoretically it might work, depending on how it's wired. But it is very dishonest. I would press charges if I found someone doing this on a plane I was in charge of.

I'm less concerned about the safety aspect so much as moral.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Theoretically it might work, depending on how it's wired. But it is very dishonest. I would press charges if I found someone doing this on a plane I was in charge of.

I'm less concerned about the safety aspect so much as moral.
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+1 :yes:...

I HATE thieves..
 
You know, the easiest way for you to save money.. Without stealing.. Is to run at 55 or 65% power, or find someone that will split the time with you...

That is what everyone else does, rather than stick it to the FBO that probably isn't making money off the rental anyway.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
While you are at it, you might as well run an extension cord from the neighbors shed to your place and effectively save money on electricity.
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Just unplug your electric meter and plug it in upside down - it will run backwards. Do this one week in four and cut your electric bill in half.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
My FBO charges for the airplane by the hobbs meter. If I turn off the master switch during flight do you think that would be an effective way to save money? Of course I would have a transceiver to do my radio calls.

EDIT: I'm not actually going to do this (it's a dumb idea). Just entertaining the idea.
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Check the electrical schematic in your POH. In the Skylane, the Clock/Hobbs are on a fused circuit that by-passes the Master switch. :)
 
After you land and shut down, spin the prop backwards. That will make the hobbs meter turn backward.
Just kidding. DO NOT try this.
 
Even if it were possible AND ethical (and it's neither), treating others as total imbeciles isn't likely to make you friends. If the tach time for a flight is greater than the Hobbs time, don't you think there might be a bit of an obvious issue?

Looking forward to reading about you in a "stupid crooks" column.

And learn some ethics or get out of the sky. Shortcuts like this make life more difficult for the rest of us. Do you REALLY consider it OK to steal?
 
Ron Levy said:
You are still responsible for tracking the aircraft operating time for maintenance purposes. If you have neither a Hobbs nor a recording tach, you would have to keep a log of all flight time on the aircraft for that purpose. However, I suspect that while there is no reg requiring all planes to have recording tachs, those without some other device are probably all manufactured and certified with a recording tach, the removal of which would be an alteration requiring FAA approval, one condition of which would likely be the installation of some other flight hour recording system like a Hobbs meter. I know for example that the Grumman GA-7 Cougar came from the factory with non-recording electric tachs, but there is a factory-installed Hobbs meter wired to the weight-on-wheels switch to record flight time for mainenance purposes.

BTW, most flight schools and FBO's are aware of this not-exactly-new trick, and have their Hobbs meters wired straight to the battery through an oil pressure sensor switch rather than through the electrical master.
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Many of the antique aircraft are tracked by pilot time specially if they are in private hands where only 1 pilot operates the aircraft.

there is only 2 required maintenance issue that is required that would need a recording tach, or hobbs. 100 hour, and any AD that is timed
 
MAKG1 said:
Even if it were possible AND ethical (and it's neither), treating others as total imbeciles isn't likely to make you friends. If the tach time for a flight is greater than the Hobbs time, don't you think there might be a bit of an obvious issue?

Looking forward to reading about you in a "stupid crooks" column.

And learn some ethics or get out of the sky. Shortcuts like this make life more difficult for the rest of us. Do you REALLY consider it OK to steal?
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Give the OP s break. It's just a question about how things work -- note the later edit after the poster got some sleep.
 
Tom-D said:
there is only 2 required maintenance issue that is required that would need a recording tach, or hobbs. 100 hour, and any AD that is timed
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Where is that written? I suspect some of the antiques used for paid rides have neither, and they certainly require 100-hour inspections since they are carrying passengers for hire.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
My FBO charges for the airplane by the hobbs meter. If I turn off the master switch during flight do you think that would be an effective way to save money? Of course I would have a transceiver to do my radio calls.

EDIT: I'm not actually going to do this (it's a dumb idea). Just entertaining the idea.
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Just steal the plane and change "N" numbers. If you are gonna be a theif make it worth your while.
 
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In my travels I have come across several unattended airports using the honor system to pay for fuel before credit card readers. I asked one FBO if he had ever been ripped off, and his reply was never.

Nice to see the younger generation of pilots thinking of ways to steal from honest hard working FBO's trying to earn a living in a tough economy.
 
Ron Levy said:
Give the OP s break. It's just a question about how things work -- note the later edit after the poster got some sleep.
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Sorry Ron. He isn't getting a break from me. I am not going to hammer him on line but I have my opinion about this guy and don't mind at all if others give him an ear full. He is flat out asking us how to steal. When I first started flying I to was curious about how the Hobbs meter worked and asked my CFI. My curiosity came from the observation that the Hobbs meter was running faster than the hour meter on the tach and not because I was trying to work the system. Perhaps he should have phrased his question differently.
 
Geico266 said:
In my travels I have come across several unattended airports using the honor system to pay for fuel before credit card readers. I asked one FBO if he had ever been ripped off, and his reply was never.

Nice to see the younger generation of pilots thinking of ways to steal from honest hard working FBO's trying to earn a living in a tough economy.
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:yes:
 
If the master is off, don't all the cool flashy buttons stop working?
 
Want more flight time per dollar? Fly a glider, get good at finding lift. Now, go away.
 
Geico266 said:
In my travels I have come across several unattended airports using the honor system to pay for fuel before credit card readers. I asked one FBO if he had ever been ripped off, and his reply was never.

Nice to see the younger generation of pilots thinking of ways to steal from honest hard working FBO's trying to earn a living in a tough economy.
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Those were the good ol days......

I REALLY miss them too..:yes:
 
Tom-D said:
It really depends upon where that oil pressure controlled switch get its power from

Many are wired direct to the buss. but the master kills the buss. none are allowed by certification rules to be connected with out a circuit protection device.

If the Hobbs meter was installed after factory, it could be hooked up any old way.
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True, but it could be a solitary circuit with an inline fuse which I know a few planes are set up like. Then you just have to pop the fuse out.;)
 
ja_user said:
You know, the easiest way for you to save money.. Without stealing.. Is to run at 55 or 65% power, or find someone that will split the time with you...

That is what everyone else does, rather than stick it to the FBO that probably isn't making money off the rental anyway.
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Not on Hobbs time rentals. That's just going to make the bill higher. This the old joke, "Full Rental Power!" :)
 
MultiMediaWill said:
My FBO charges for the airplane by the hobbs meter. If I turn off the master switch during flight do you think that would be an effective way to save money? Of course I would have a transceiver to do my radio calls.

EDIT: I'm not actually going to do this (it's a dumb idea). Just entertaining the idea.
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The mere fact you would "entertain" the idea speaks volumes.
 
Okay I'm going to be a contrarian here. I agree that cutting off the master in flight for the purpose of saving Hobbs time is both unethical and, quite honestly, a bad idea (why do you want to disable radios, nav systems, lights, etc... and plus chances are that you are flying through controlled airspaces which require you to have your transponder turned on if so equipped and calibrated)

BUT

Assuming the Hobbs was wired through the master and not directly to the battery, I can see turning it off on taxiing, fuel runs, ground runups, etc... until you actually need the electrical equipment. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
 
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