Florida's "Pilot Factory"

[HeatherCFI]

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/

I thought the days of 300-500 FO's were long gone years ago.... Guess not.


"After 12 weeks of training, students serve as First Officers, also known as co-pilots..."

How do you even log 250 hours to earn a Commercial certificate in 12 weeks? Anyone familiar with this program? Maybe a PPL is a pre-req?

 

[ScottM]

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/

I thought the days of 300-500 FO's were long gone years ago.... Guess not.


"After 12 weeks of training, students serve as First Officers, also known as co-pilots..."

How do you even log 250 hours to earn a Commercial certificate in 12 weeks? Anyone familiar with this program? Maybe a PPL is a pre-req?

Those mills are usually Part 141 and are not subject to the same hour requirements as Part 61 schools hence the 250 hours requirement for CP does not exist for those students. There are hour requirements for part 141 students I think they are around 190 or so, most of that has to come in a formal training situation.

 

[EdFred]

I would like to see ATP certificates held as requirements for BOTH seats on any 121 operation.

 

[HeatherCFI]

Those mills are usually Part 141 and are not subject to the same hour requirements as Part 61 schools hence the 250 hours requirement for CP does not exist for those students.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I like how they compare the pilots to medical doctors. Yeah, if they only KNEW what their pilots are getting paid!

 

[ScottM]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I like how they compare the pilots to medical doctors. Yeah, if they only KNEW what their pilots are getting paid!

Yep. Gotta agree with that.

I was just reading another article about a child porn sweep in Florida. In that article they talked about how police had nabbed professionals, retired professionals, and a pilot. I guess pilots are not professionals

 

[silver-eagle]

Yep. Gotta agree with that.

I was just reading another article about a child porn sweep in Florida. In that article they talked about how police had nabbed professionals, retired professionals, and a pilot. I guess pilots are not professionals

One should also ask why "a pilot" was singled out. Who were the other "professionals"? Hookers?

 

[RotorAndWing]

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/

I thought the days of 300-500 FO's were long gone years ago.... Guess not.


"After 12 weeks of training, students serve as First Officers, also known as co-pilots..."

How do you even log 250 hours to earn a Commercial certificate in 12 weeks? Anyone familiar with this program? Maybe a PPL is a pre-req?

The prerequisite to join this program is to already have a Commercial/Instrument/Multi rating.

From their website: http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/

Gulfstream Training Academy’s First Officer Program offers airline bound aviation professionals training and experience at an actual airline flying real flights for Gulfstream International Airlines in only 3 months for commercial pilot certificate holders or as few as 6 months for zero time pilots.
At least 250 hours of airline flight time is included in the program – build your multi-engine time in a turbine powered airliner flying for a real airline!

 

[ScottM]

The prerequisite to join this program is to already have a Commercial/Instrument/Multi rating.

From their website: http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/

Gulfstream Training Academy’s First Officer Program offers airline bound aviation professionals training and experience at an actual airline flying real flights for Gulfstream International Airlines in only 3 months for commercial pilot certificate holders or as few as 6 months for zero time pilots.
At least 250 hours of airline flight time is included in the program – build your multi-engine time in a turbine powered airliner flying for a real airline!

FYI my comments were directed at the pilot mills in general.

 

[RotorAndWing]

It's all about selling the cheapest seats.

CHEAPO, ONE-JET AIRLINE KEEPS IT PLANE & SIMPLE

At nine bucks, a flight to Toledo now costs less than a drive across the Verrazano Bridge.
The no-frills startup airline JetAmerica -- which currently owns only one airplane -- yesterday started offering the absurdly discounted one-way tickets on flights from Newark Airport to such hot spots as Lansing, Mich., South Bend, Ind., and Melbourne, Fla.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0528200...__one_jet_airline_keeps_it_plane___171319.htm

 

[RJM62]

At nine bucks, a flight to Toledo now costs less than a drive across the Verrazano Bridge.

Depending on the time of day, it may be faster, too.

-Rich

 

[Keith Lane]

The Press is on the hunt

For reasons in recent plane crashes.
Are these schools like puppy mills? My first flight instructor left to go fly freight and paid "only $30K" for the opportunity to make a freight company revenue. That was in 1993. Do any professional pilots here feel as though the guy in the right seat was not yet ready for the seat because the school pushed him into a revenue position too early?

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/28/floridas-pilot-factory/

Oops, alrady in another thread..........

Nevermind.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29223

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

For reasons in recent plane crashes.
Are these schools like puppy mills?

IMHO these CFI mills are like puppy mills. They crank out instructors at an alarming rate. But in the past the real job of teaching and getting hours kept these guys out of the part 121 realm for a long time. They then were able to be properly trained and mentored. But as the demand for pilots went up and the pay went down, so much for supply and demand theories, these guys moved into the right seat and were getting OJT, at our expense.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

But as the demand for pilots went up and the pay went down, so much for supply and demand theories, these guys moved into the right seat and were getting OJT, at our expense.

I think the law of supply and demand was (and is) still at work. The pay for these jobs has always been low, but as demand went up the amount of experience required went down. I can remember that even in the old days there were people paying to sit in the right seat of airplanes, paying for their own training at airlines and working for low pay. Nowdays there is not much, if any, demand for pilots. But if you had some airline still offering to hire people with 500 hours for very low pay they would have a huge stack of applications.

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

I think the law of supply and demand was (and is) still at work. The pay for these jobs has always been low, but as demand went up the amount of experience required went down. I can remember that even in the old days there were people paying to sit in the right seat of airplanes, paying for their own training at airlines and working for low pay. Nowdays there is not much, if any, demand for pilots. But if you had some airline still offering to hire people with 500 hours for very low pay they would have a huge stack of applications.

My point was and still is that had the laws of supply and demand actually worked as it should in this case that pay would have gone up as the supply of qualified applicants went down. Instead what the arilines did was lower their standards to create a larger supply.

That begs two questions. One were the standards set too high and thus it created the shortage and two are the standards now set too low creating a safety issue for the flying public?

 

[Everskyward]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

My point was and still is that had the laws of supply and demand actually worked as it should in this case that pay would have gone up as the supply of qualified applicants went down. Instead what the arilines did was lower their standards to create a larger supply.

That begs two questions. One were the standards set too high and thus it created the shortage and two are the standards now set too low creating a safety issue for the flying public?

The thing is the legal standards have not changed. You always needed a commercial multiengine (if the airline flies multiengine airplanes) to be an FO. You also need to have certain training which is spelled out by the FAA. This set the hour limit pretty low since you don't need very many hours to get a commercial multiengine. Airlines have their own standards but can change them in reaction to the hiring climate. In addition there are "realistic" hiring minimums which might not be anywhere close to the published minimums. What I'm surprised by is that their insurers let them get away with low time pilots. I guess, statistically, there have not been enough losses that were pinned on low time.

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

I guess, statistically, there have not been enough losses that were pinned on low time.

I think we are seeing some uptick in loses. Remember 'loses' tend to be human lives and it is a sad fact that aviation often does not changes until the lose of life is high.

But if we accept that the lowering of standards for 121 ops can be so lowered isn't that saying that people in cockpit already are over qualified and thus over paid so we should cut their pay as well? BTW that is exactly what the airlines are doing.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

But if we accept that the lowering of standards for 121 ops can be so lowered isn't that saying that people in cockpit already are over qualified and thus over paid so we should cut their pay as well? BTW that is exactly what the airlines are doing.

I've been in a Part 121 operation for 23 years now. In that 23 years I have not seen a "lowering of standards" in FAR 121 but an increase.

It's the individual airline operations that lower their standards and choose to look the other way in order to save a dollar.

Pilot's are their own worse enemies when it comes to pay. They are willing to cut each others throat for a chance to fly a big shiny airplane. If you have a job that pays a pilot $25.00/hour someone will ultimately come along and be willing to do it for $24, then someone else will do it for $23, and so on and so on.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

I think we are seeing some uptick in loses. Remember 'loses' tend to be human lives and it is a sad fact that aviation often does not changes until the lose of life is high.

If you are talking about the recent accident in Buffalo I don't know that you could blame that on them being very low time. I was curious so I looked it up. The captain had 3379 hours and the FO had 2220. The captain only had 109 in type but the FO had 772. If you were going to set some kind of standard based on hours what would it be?

But if we accept that the lowering of standards for 121 ops can be so lowered isn't that saying that people in cockpit already are over qualified and thus over paid so we should cut their pay as well? BTW that is exactly what the airlines are doing.

The FAA hasn't lowered the standards for 121 ops. The airlines hire people according to the economic climate at the time, just like other businesses. The thing is, there are still a lot of people out there who would give their right arm to fly for a living. That's the problem when you try to make a living at something other people consider recreation and pay large sums of money to do voluntarily.

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

I never said they had. But are you saying that the barrier to entry to get a job in a 121 op company is as high as it was 10 years ago? It certainly does not appear to me to be the case. It sure seems like 121 operational companies are hiring people with far less experience.

 

[Everskyward]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

are you saying that the barrier to entry to get a job in a 121 op company is as high as it was 10 years ago? It certainly does not appear to me to be the case. It sure seems like 121 operational companies are hiring people with far less experience.

I'm saying that the hiring minimums go up and down with the availability of jobs. 18 months ago the airlines were hiring pilots with far fewer hours than they are now because they aren't hiring much now if at all. When hiring starts up there will probably be pilots with more experience who will be hired first. Eventually they will be back to hiring low time pilots. This has been going on for years. I hear stories about airlines hiring pilots back in the 1960s with very low time too.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

But if we accept that the lowering of standards for 121 ops

I never said they had.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

I'm saying that the hiring minimums go up and down with the availability of jobs. 18 months ago the airlines were hiring pilots with far fewer hours than they are now because they aren't hiring much now if at all. When hiring starts up there will probably be pilots with more experience who will be hired first. Eventually they will be back to hiring low time pilots. This has been going on for years. I hear stories about airlines hiring pilots back in the 1960s with very low time too.

My Chief Pilot several years ago was a former Eastern guy. In the mid 60's he was hired by Eastern with a Private license. He took his Comm/Inst/Multi checkride in a DC-9. :smile:

 

[flyersfan31]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

My Chief Pilot several years ago was a former Eastern guy. In the mid 60's he was hired by Eastern with a Private license. He took his Comm/Inst/Multi checkride in a DC-9. :smile:

Wow!! Just, WOW!

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

Yes and you see the word ops, short for operations as in airline operations. There is nothing in there about Part 121 being lowered by the FAA. Indeed.

If you thought that I meant that part 121 was being lowered I am sorry I was not clear. That is not what I was referring too. I was talking about how the airlines that engage in those ops are seemingly highering warm bodies with minimum experience.

As a many million mile passenger on airlines I am not happy with that trend.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Re: The Press is on the hunt

As a many million mile passenger on airlines I am not happy with that trend.

As a many more millions of miles than you airline pilot neither am I.

 

[spiderweb]

Well frankly the whole system sucks. I have had it with CFIs who are only teaching to get to the right seat of a kerosene burner. I am very lucky that I've had some excellent CFIs, and I always overpaid them whenever possible. (Read "overpaid" as "paid a reasonable fee." GUH!!!)

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I like how they compare the pilots to medical doctors. Yeah, if they only KNEW what their pilots are getting paid!

They would be HORRIFIED. Right up to the point where they might have to pay an extra 10 bucks to PAY for a decent wage. THEN it isn't so bad.

 

[Everskyward]

Well frankly the whole system sucks.

It would be interesting to hear what people's ideas of a good system might be.

 

[spiderweb]

It would be interesting to hear what people's ideas of a good system might be.

A good system would be a system that rewards good CFIs for good teaching and pays Hobbs-meter CFIs the current wage.

 

[silver-eagle]

....snip...Hobbs-meter CFIs the current wage.

A living wage. You can't live on what a hobbs metered CFI makes. Most of them I've known work two or more jobs. One guy I flew with was an EMT full time and a CFI 6 days a week.

 

[Everskyward]

A living wage. You can't live on what a hobbs metered CFI makes. Most of them I've known work two or more jobs. One guy I flew with was an EMT full time and a CFI 6 days a week.

That's pretty simplistic, though. It's easy to say, "This person ought to be paid more", but how are you going to implement that unless you are the person who is paying them? Sure there are people who will pay more for quality instruction but there are others who are going to go the least expensive route.

 

[flyersfan31]

The market has spoken, and clearly it doesn't value CFIs. We can bemoan that fact until the cows come home, but clearly the non-monetary rewards of flying outweigh the monetary costs. How else to explain the willingness of so many to work for so little? It is what it is, and only a command-economy would be able to change that. I'm not really into that sort of government, so I'll just live with it.

People (mostly kids, who can live with the 'rents) want to fly. Badly. So much so that they will work for the cost of Ramen Noodles. That's life. Set a minimum wage and you'll screw up the whole system. I think it works as it is. Even the 200hr Mesa wonderpilots aren't just falling out of the skies.