Florida plane crash into Gulf PA-28

I did my night cross country into Venice. Instructor wanted to give me the blackout experience in the downwind to 5. It's dark, dark, dark out there. Definitely disorienting. Not sure if it's completely dark right now at 7:30 though, but maybe.
 
The body of a girl was found in the wreckage, plus the woman found earlier; apparently they believe the pilot was a male, not found yet. Horribly tragic.
 
It is dark AF at that time, but there was an 84% moon. Usually that illuminates the water nicely in the Gulf, especially when the weather is severe clear like it is now.

Moonrise was at approx 3pm, so it was not past overhead yet. Perhaps there is no reflection on the water when the moon is at your back? I have not noticed. I do know that when a full moon is out over the water, it lights up the surface like daylight.

There are tons of lights on land at Venice. That close to shore, there should be no problem using that for orientation, unless their backs were directly to land and DOF perpendicular to shore. Maybe they took off on 27? But I recall wind was from the east this weekend. Quick glance at WX history says N-NE winds.
 
Flight track indicates they departed in the opposite direction the landed. Directly out to sea.
 
New student here (also Tampa Bay res)- this one sorta struck home as I'd just had a convo last flight with my CFI about night flying.
I was a bit surprised that in order to get a PPL, you have to do a night XC solo. Call me p****- and perhaps my perspective will change as my training progresses- but for me, flying at night in an aircraft without a ballistic parachute is an enhanced risk that I'm not comfortable taking absent a good reason to assume that very real additional risk. I'll obviously do what's required, even if I never plan to fly VFR at night post-license, but an engine out emergency at night over a populated area isn't usually survivable.

CFI tells me it's a blast (as well as my son, an AF pilot)- but competency is irrelevant if there's no place within glide path to set down.
Aircraft was apparently less than 1/2 mile from the airport, which would likely seem to be a stall right after takeoff.
 
tobnpr said:
New student here (also Tampa Bay res)- this one sorta struck home as I'd just had a convo last flight with my CFI about night flying.
I was a bit surprised that in order to get a PPL, you have to do a night XC solo. Call me p****- and perhaps my perspective will change as my training progresses- but for me, flying at night in an aircraft without a ballistic parachute is an enhanced risk that I'm not comfortable taking absent a good reason to assume that very real additional risk. I'll obviously do what's required, even if I never plan to fly VFR at night post-license, but an engine out emergency at night over a populated area isn't usually survivable.

CFI tells me it's a blast (as well as my son, an AF pilot)- but competency is irrelevant if there's no place within glide path to set down.
Aircraft was apparently less than 1/2 mile from the airport, which would likely seem to be a stall right after takeoff.
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Most of this is fairly accurate assessment. You don’t do stalls so you can fly around stalling the plane. You don’t have to plan to fly at night to do night training, but it is a skill you really should have in case you need it some day.

I stay night current, so I fly at night about every two or three months. It’s very relaxing, if you can stop thinking about what might happen.
 
BRS is a modern invention. Plenty of piston singles fly at night without one.

That being said, this seems to be low altitude disorientation right after takeoff. They may have never known what hit them. I suspect BRS would not have helped.
 
tobnpr said:
which would likely seem to be a stall right after takeoff.
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More likely spatial disorientation due to the black hole effect. It is very real, and very powerful. As Dan said above, a chute won’t help if you don’t realize there’s a problem.
 
Salty said:
Most of this is fairly accurate assessment. You don’t do stalls so you can fly around stalling the plane. You don’t have to plan to fly at night to do night training, but it is a skill you really should have in case you need it some day.

I stay night current, so I fly at night about every two or three months. It’s very relaxing, if you can stop thinking about what might happen.
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Absolutely. Delay for whatever reason(s) pushing arrival into darkness- certainly want to be as prepared as possible. Perfect scenarios for sim time. Everyone has their level of risk tolerance "for fun".
As a diver, I'm fine with deep, open water. Cave diving...no thank you, ma'am.

dans2992 said:
BRS is a modern invention. Plenty of piston singles fly at night without one.

That being said, this seems to be low altitude disorientation right after takeoff. They may have never known what hit them. I suspect BRS would not have helped.
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I wondered about that. Again- as a really new student (5 hrs)- I'm really focused on the six pack after rotation. Perhaps a bit more inside than I should be- but I'm making sure I've got positive rate and sufficient airspeed until I get to 500 feet and then trim for cruise-climb. As I get more experience, I'm trying to be "inside" less and rely more on the visual clues and "feel". Terrible in all respects, it will be interesting to see if they can piece it together.

I wasn't saying a BRS would've helped in this scenario- just that, flying an aircraft at night that's equipped with one, would reduce that engine-out emergency risk to an a more acceptable level, at least for me.
 
tobnpr said:
New student here (also Tampa Bay res)- this one sorta struck home as I'd just had a convo last flight with my CFI about night flying.
I was a bit surprised that in order to get a PPL, you have to do a night XC solo. Call me p****- and perhaps my perspective will change as my training progresses- but for me, flying at night in an aircraft without a ballistic parachute is an enhanced risk that I'm not comfortable taking absent a good reason to assume that very real additional risk. I'll obviously do what's required, even if I never plan to fly VFR at night post-license, but an engine out emergency at night over a populated area isn't usually survivable.

CFI tells me it's a blast (as well as my son, an AF pilot)- but competency is irrelevant if there's no place within glide path to set down.
Aircraft was apparently less than 1/2 mile from the airport, which would likely seem to be a stall right after takeoff.
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I am 99.9999999% that there is not a night xc SOLO requirement. Just a night cross country flight requirement, which could be solo or with your CFI.
 
tobnpr said:
New student here (also Tampa Bay res)- this one sorta struck home as I'd just had a convo last flight with my CFI about night flying.
I was a bit surprised that in order to get a PPL, you have to do a night XC solo. Call me p****- and perhaps my perspective will change as my training progresses- but for me, flying at night in an aircraft without a ballistic parachute is an enhanced risk that I'm not comfortable taking absent a good reason to assume that very real additional risk. I'll obviously do what's required, even if I never plan to fly VFR at night post-license, but an engine out emergency at night over a populated area isn't usually survivable.

CFI tells me it's a blast (as well as my son, an AF pilot)- but competency is irrelevant if there's no place within glide path to set down.
Aircraft was apparently less than 1/2 mile from the airport, which would likely seem to be a stall right after takeoff.
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SE engine failure at night is easy. Turn on landing light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off. :)

But really, if there is no place to safely land at night, there is no place to safely land in the day time either. Outside of populated areas, it might be harder to find one at night, but that can be mitigated by planning your route and altitude selection.
 
tobnpr said:
CFI tells me it's a blast (as well as my son, an AF pilot)
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Agreed, night flight is great and peaceful. Definitely higher-risk. Out here we have a mix of fields and orchards, so you're left wondering whether that black spot on the ground is dirt or full of trees.

There's no solo night cross-country requirement for the PPL. There is a solo 2-hour 100+ nm night cross-country requirement for the commercial license.
 
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Kenny Taylor said:
There's no night cross-country requirement for the PPL. There is a 2-hour 100+ nm night cross-country requirement for the commercial license.
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Before a hundred nitpickers pile on and we get three pages of this....

For the PPL, you have to fly a night DUAL cross-country.
There is no night SOLO cross-country requirement for PPL.
 
I don't like flying at night but especially in the winter, it's almost necessary at times on longer x-country flights because it just gets dark so early. Back home in the Canadian Prairies, it's almost relaxing to fly at night if the weather is clear. You can literally see city lights from 100+ miles away and I always plan my route following major highways. Same in the U.S. midwest. A few weeks ago however, as we arrived in Florida, we ended up flying the last 30+ minutes at night and I have never seen a night as dark as out here in Florida. To be fair, it was rather cloudy that night, even had some rain showers. At one point, it was so dark, I couldn't make out any lights or a horizon. I immediately looked at the instruments and noticed wings not being level so I straighten it out and kept my eyes on the instruments asking my wife to let me know when she can see some city lights. Once she saw some, I put my eyes outside again. Some nights, with no city lights and no moon out (due to clouds or moon phase), night VFR is essentially IFR.
 
Always curious to read everyone's dynamic risk appetites.

Night flying certainly has its added dangers. So does flying imc, navigating weather, being over the water or mountains.. some will even say that flying a plane with a parachute or second engine invites higher risk
 
Tantalum said:
Always curious to read everyone's dynamic risk appetites.

Night flying certainly has its added dangers. So does flying imc, navigating weather, being over the water or mountains.. some will even say that flying a plane with a parachute or second engine invites higher risk
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Everything we do has risks, even sitting on the couch at home. Flying at night increases your risk level in some areas but I would argue it reduces your risk level in other areas. I don't have any stats on that but I think I vaguely remember that the VAST majority of midairs happen during day VFR. Makes sense, much more traffic during that time so while an engine out at night sucks more than an engine out during the day, your risk to hit another plane is lower at night.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
...night VFR is essentially IFR.
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THIS! My night XC with my instructor was to SPG. RWY 7 departure right over Tampa Bay. As soon as that runway disappeared beneath me, it was truly IFR. I immediately switched over to looking at the instruments and turned the autopilot on. There wasn't anything useful for guidance out the windows that night.

Quite an eye-opening experience; solidified my choice to go straight into IFR training after getting my PPL.
 
I cannot recall the last time I read an NTSB accident report with a radio call saying "AHHHHH, my engine quit at night, I can't see where to land, SMASH!!!"

OTOH we have all read countless accident reports with radio calls saying "the weather sucks, I'm not sure I can land, wait what was that last fix you gave me, ARRGGGH!!!"

Engines just don't quit all that often. But pilots blunder into poor visibility on a distressingly regular basis. Night training for PPL is a no brainer. A licensed pilot without that experience would be an accident waiting to happen.
 
According to FAA https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_ce...s/cos/media/causal factors - final report.pdf a very interesting report actually with tons of data. Worth a peruse

Also very interesting https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=522

If you are lazy, then per FAA you have

1 - loss of control, perceptual, physical, sensory
2 - CFIT
3 - powerplant, maintenance, preflight
4 - low altitude ops, pipeline or powerline patrol, crop duster, EMS, etc
5 - unknown
6 - instrument procedures, things like non instrument pilots with "get there itis"
7 - fuel planning
8 - system component failure, non powerplant
9 - midair
10 - weather

I'd be curious to see this on a pareto, to really find out where the powerplant failure is.. does it make up 40 percent, 20 percent, 10 percent, etc.
 
...night VFR is essentially IFR
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I think that is overstating it a bit. I have a VFR-only aircraft and have flown night VFR for years. It definitely requires increased attention to weather and a stronger willingness to cancel or land if things aren't right.

Now flight over open water beyond visual range of shore, night or day, very much should be treated as IFR.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
...night VFR is essentially IFR.
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I could be wrong, but I believe Canada agrees with you and requires an instrument rating to fly at night.

From my personal experience, I would say maybe. I've flown at night before and could see nearly as good as during the day (full moon). I've also flown at night and had zero outside references, or least enough to cause spatial disorientation.

Sometimes both in the same flight!
 
Night flying... Peaceful, less traffic, smoother air. What's not to like? Add in city skyline flights with scenic city lights and it makes for pretty memorable experiences.
Unless your area has lots of obstacles or eliminates any visual horizon, I'm not sure where the challenge or deep unease comes in.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I could be wrong, but I believe Canada agrees with you and requires an instrument rating to fly at night.
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No instrument rating needed to fly at night but it's also not part of the PPL. Once you have your PPL, you can add a night rating which you get by doing more instrument training. Same goes for VFR on top (or over the top... never know which is the correct one lol). Basically, your Canadian standard PPL is restricted to Day VFR Only but you can add the two privileges (Night and OTT) that come standard with the FAA PPL. By the time a Canadian private pilot has the same privileges as an American private pilot, the Canadian has a minimum of 15 hours instrument training (minimum requirement), most likely more, somewhere around the 20 - 25 hours of instrument training.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Increased difficulty seeing and avoiding clouds. Hence the Canadian requirement for additional instrument training.
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That's fair. I guess I should clarify: I don't fly at night unless there is ample clearance from clouds (~ >=2k feet) and I just keep higher wx minimums for night flying in general. Cloud clearance is never an issue for my flights.
 
Tom Wells said:
That's fair. I guess I should clarify: I don't fly at night unless there is ample clearance from clouds (~ >=2k feet) and I just keep higher wx minimums for night flying in general. Cloud clearance is never an issue for my flights.
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Agreed on all. I tried scud running at night once. Never again.
 
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NealRomeoGolf said:
Not always true. My last currency flight I was getting bumped around so bad I did my 3 landings and put it away. No thanks.
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For sure there are going to be times where night is rougher and bumpier, but based on my experience thus far it's been notably better than, say, afternoon flying.

Then again my wx minimums at night are higher than day, so there might be a bit of causation in my correlating night time with better weather :). I don't fly at night in questionable weather.
 
Down here in south central Texas, the low scud/fog can form faster than you can fly. Dew point meets temperature an hour before the forecast and you have no place to land within 100 miles. Scares the cr*p outa me when I see that happen. I don't choose to fly on evenings like that, but they can be hard to forecast for many weeks out of the year.
 
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