I've seen a pilot that was new in type press down and forward on the trim switch without realizing what he was doing. In a few seconds, we had full nose down trim at cruise speed. As you can imagine, the force required on the yolk was very high. His initial reaction was "what the h___ is wrong with this airplane."
Florida Fatal crash after issue with AP ?
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acrophile
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acrophile
It sounded like he knew about the battery and alternator switches but didn't know the term "master switch" (or just forgot while under pressure). But yeah, it didn't occur to him to use those switches. That should be a familiar emergency procedure.
It's especially scary that in the middle of everything he was ready to turn off the engine when he thought that's what was being suggested. Maybe he ended up doing something like that.
One takeaway lesson is that if you're ever in a position to give radio advice to a pilot in distress, be sure to compensate for the pilot's distraction by dumbing everything down and being extra explicit.
Maybe that's the problem--he was trying to use a yolk to control the plane.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Yeah, a Lear jet. Clearly more important than anyone else. Just another a-hole in the sky.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Here is a photo of the panel on the accident aircraft (sold a couple months ago). The elevator trim wheel is visible just above the right rudder pedal. There is a small indicator on the subpanel above the trim wheel. The A/P circuit breaker is way over on the right side sub-panel.
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fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Thanks. That IS in a very obscure spot. I can see the wheel being where it is, but it's hard to imagine they couldn't engineer a different spot for the indicator. Although as you said, that was then.
There are 2 red buttons on the pilots side yoke...... Any Bo drivers can to share their function ?
Can only vouch for my 55X but...
Yep, pushing against an autopilot that wants to go the other way will almost certainly run the trim to the stops (if you have electric trim) or it will sit their bleeping at you to retrim if you don't have electric trim. Of course there are no fewer than 4 ways to kill the autopilot in my plane:
1. Big red disconnect button
2. Autopilot switch on the panel
3. Pull the circuit breaker.
4. Activate the electric trim switch.
And yes you can always kill the master/avionics power as well.
Yes, bonanzas have trim wheels.
If he managed finally to kill the AP (perhaps by killing the master as suggested by the other voice on frequency), he could have indeed had it pitched way out of hand. Still it should have been flyable though given his rather agitated state, he may not have realized what was going on.
I once inadvertantly unloaded a tip tank on one side with the other full. The autopilot was acting wierd (making s turns across the course) as a result. I didn't realize what I had until I killed the autopilot and it rolled hard to the left. Still it was flyable but it took me a minute to figure out WTF was wrong with the airplane.
Yep, pushing against an autopilot that wants to go the other way will almost certainly run the trim to the stops (if you have electric trim) or it will sit their bleeping at you to retrim if you don't have electric trim. Of course there are no fewer than 4 ways to kill the autopilot in my plane:
1. Big red disconnect button
2. Autopilot switch on the panel
3. Pull the circuit breaker.
4. Activate the electric trim switch.
And yes you can always kill the master/avionics power as well.
Yes, bonanzas have trim wheels.
If he managed finally to kill the AP (perhaps by killing the master as suggested by the other voice on frequency), he could have indeed had it pitched way out of hand. Still it should have been flyable though given his rather agitated state, he may not have realized what was going on.
I once inadvertantly unloaded a tip tank on one side with the other full. The autopilot was acting wierd (making s turns across the course) as a result. I didn't realize what I had until I killed the autopilot and it rolled hard to the left. Still it was flyable but it took me a minute to figure out WTF was wrong with the airplane.
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OBrien Aviation
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OBrien Aviation
Wow
This was tough to listen to. The Pilot was new, (didn't understand flight planning) New to the Aircraft, A serious airplane with a KFC200 and a garmin 480. That thing can be like the Enigma machine from ww2. The registration is in question, and obviously new to Orlandos Bravo Airspace on a friday at noon. SOOO busy with all the travelers in and out of MCO. I have owned a 1981 A36TC with a KFC200, Here is my take. He was very nervous going through a thin layer, so he popped out on top at 2100 Ft, and hit alt hold. or Autopilot on. Must of been in the NAV mode because it would not respond to a heading that was given to him. so he said. Now he pushes down, Autopilot trims up flies up into class B again so he pushes down, then he's back into the clouds so he pulls but now the plane trims down to regain the 2100 ft, (look at the speed and alt graph with the time on the tapes) Asked for any ideas on how to turn it off Thats bad, any one of the these things can do this, Hitting the trim switch, pushing the red button , turning the switch to off on the head or pulling the breaker. The pilot did not understand any of the basic systems in the plane, or panic had set in too deep to comprehend what he was doing. Not understanding that shutting the key off would be a total disaster, and never turning the power off even after stating that he was about to 3 times. He had stated that he had powered way down and it shows on the ground speed of the aircraft track with the autopilot still trying to find the 2100. He stated he was getting warnings, (gear horn, stall horn) although I didn't hear them in the background, maybe it was the Alternator warning light (that he may have switched off) then a heavy buffet, then stall. Seems like the alt hold was engaged the entire time. I have never seen a KFC 200 have a trim run away, nor not be able to shut off. I don't feel this is runaway, it seems it was operating as designed.
It will be interesting to see just what circuit breaker was pulled, although I have seen a lot of circuit breakers popped after a plane hits the water. If the system was on , there is a very good chance that the breaker will pop just from the H20. If the master was off, obviously not. I am an Insurance Adjuster for aviation and have been to lots of these scenes. I will try to find out what breakers were pulled. That is, if he had insurance, Doubtful that he was checked out in the plane, and if he was signed off, I bet that guy is nervous.
This was tough to listen to. The Pilot was new, (didn't understand flight planning) New to the Aircraft, A serious airplane with a KFC200 and a garmin 480. That thing can be like the Enigma machine from ww2. The registration is in question, and obviously new to Orlandos Bravo Airspace on a friday at noon. SOOO busy with all the travelers in and out of MCO. I have owned a 1981 A36TC with a KFC200, Here is my take. He was very nervous going through a thin layer, so he popped out on top at 2100 Ft, and hit alt hold. or Autopilot on. Must of been in the NAV mode because it would not respond to a heading that was given to him. so he said. Now he pushes down, Autopilot trims up flies up into class B again so he pushes down, then he's back into the clouds so he pulls but now the plane trims down to regain the 2100 ft, (look at the speed and alt graph with the time on the tapes) Asked for any ideas on how to turn it off Thats bad, any one of the these things can do this, Hitting the trim switch, pushing the red button , turning the switch to off on the head or pulling the breaker. The pilot did not understand any of the basic systems in the plane, or panic had set in too deep to comprehend what he was doing. Not understanding that shutting the key off would be a total disaster, and never turning the power off even after stating that he was about to 3 times. He had stated that he had powered way down and it shows on the ground speed of the aircraft track with the autopilot still trying to find the 2100. He stated he was getting warnings, (gear horn, stall horn) although I didn't hear them in the background, maybe it was the Alternator warning light (that he may have switched off) then a heavy buffet, then stall. Seems like the alt hold was engaged the entire time. I have never seen a KFC 200 have a trim run away, nor not be able to shut off. I don't feel this is runaway, it seems it was operating as designed.
It will be interesting to see just what circuit breaker was pulled, although I have seen a lot of circuit breakers popped after a plane hits the water. If the system was on , there is a very good chance that the breaker will pop just from the H20. If the master was off, obviously not. I am an Insurance Adjuster for aviation and have been to lots of these scenes. I will try to find out what breakers were pulled. That is, if he had insurance, Doubtful that he was checked out in the plane, and if he was signed off, I bet that guy is nervous.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
Good eye. Looks like you've got a potential future as an investigator.Does the autopilot drive the elevator , or the trim tab..
at 1:25 into the video, the pitch trim is set pretty much full nose up.
My thoughts also
This is like saying, "with all due respect" before dropping the hammer...
And this is how you soften the blow. Take notes folks, this guy is a pro.
Now I go listen to the LiveATC recording....
dmspilot
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Well this one sure is. Just listened to the LiveATC. He is not able to distinguish between the magneto switch, master switch, and avionics master...wtf?
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
As alluded to in another thread, if I gave that guy a checkout, I'd be sweating a lot at this time.
No idea on his experience/hours flown/prior aircraft types but if you're buying a Bonanza I'd at least hope you'd have enough experience and study under your belt to know you're not supposed to turn the key switch off in flight
No idea on his experience/hours flown/prior aircraft types but if you're buying a Bonanza I'd at least hope you'd have enough experience and study under your belt to know you're not supposed to turn the key switch off in flight
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I may be giving him too much credit, but I suspect that he was so overwhelmed at that point that he wasn't thinking straight. Basically shell-shocked.As alluded to in another thread, if I gave that guy a checkout, I'd be sweating a lot at this time.
No idea on his experience/hours flown/prior aircraft types but if you're buying a Bonanza I'd at least hope you'd have enough experience and study under your belt to know you're not supposed to turn the key switch off in flight
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
You may be right. For all I know, I could go stupid if something like that happened to me.
Turningfinal
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In the Bonanza, are the pitch trim servo and autopilot servo the same thing?
Does anyone know whether those servos have the possibility of going over-center?
Does anyone know whether those servos have the possibility of going over-center?
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, I think your first advantage is that you participate in aviation discussions like this trying to understand how to prevent similar things from occurring. In other words, I suspect that you take training a little more seriously than maybe this guy did.
One of the things I noted is that the accident pilot was not a member of BeechTalk. I'm not saying that somehow makes one an unsafe pilot, but it just seems odd in this day and age to buy a new airplane and not join an internet type association to have a wealth of knowledge to tap into.
For every airplane I've bought or was even interested in purchasing, I joined the type club and participated in their forum to get as much info before hand as I could. Why re-invent the wheel or learn the hard lessons yourself when you can learn ahead of time from the experience of others.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Don't know - seems like that might vary depending on the autopilot installed?
Turningfinal
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Just listened to the whole tape.....at 29:30ish....some ******* gets on "they're gonna close the whole airport for that guy?!?"
I wonder how he feels now knowing his fellow pilot is dead.
I wonder how he feels now knowing his fellow pilot is dead.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I can say this much, I'm going to go over my autopilot manual sometime this week. I glanced it over when I got the airplane but didn't read it in depth. I do know there's a preflight procedure for it too, which I will start utilizing.
My AP is pretty simple and it took me about 5 minutes to learn how to use it.. HDG or GPSS mode and a simple altitude hold... and there can't be a runaway trim because there's no electric trim. But, I want to double check that I know how it functions AND, make sure that I know what to do in case of a failure.
I do have a feeling that this guy did not do much to go over his airplane systems.
MAKG1
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Having recently fought an AP that insisted on full nose down pitch, it takes a LOT more effort than the overpower test you do in preflight. Not only do you fight the servo, you also fight out-of-trim forces, which can be substantial.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I think the pilot was reluctant to Declare Emergency (no idea why). Controller should have given him priority handling and diverted all other traffic to another frequency as he may have needed to communicate something and the chatter I'm sure was distracting - didn't help matter much. I thought about that while the female pilot was talking r e a l l y s l o w l y. Sure woulda ticked me off.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
On the left horn of the yoke, I believe the big red button is the A/P disconnect. The other button next to it is likely the push to talk. then there is the electric trim switch.
On the right horn are two red buttons - one should be a CWS (control wheel steering) switch (does not disengage the A/P, but allows you to momentarily move the yoke while you are holding the button down). Next to that is a remote xpdr IDENT button and the big white button turns on the yoke map light.
A lot of different buttons for someone new to the airplane.
Autopilots can definitely fail. And its about 15 seconds to upset. Better know what to do and do it fast. One place where speed is important in rectifying the problem. Also, pilots should know which instruments to monitor when autopilot is on. If the instrument the autopilot uses fails, you will want to use the instrument the autopilot DOESNT use to identify and correct it.
FlySince9
En-Route
Yea...the difference between a Lear Cockpit and a Rose Bush... The pricks are on the inside!
Bird Man
Pre-takeoff checklist
That was very hard to listen to.
Sounds like something was broken in the controls. He said he was porpoising up and down.
He said before turning off the master he had warning lights flashing and was buffeting.
Very sad.
Sounds like something was broken in the controls. He said he was porpoising up and down.
He said before turning off the master he had warning lights flashing and was buffeting.
Very sad.
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chartbundle
This is something I always try and do if I can during an initial flight with a new autopilot. I give it a command and then hold yoke pressure against it until it runs out of trim and disconnects(hopefully). Alternatively command a level altitude or climb and reduce power. It's always interesting when the CFI in the right seat knows less about the autopilot than I do as they're often surprised by the demo.
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RyanShort1
Final Approach
And this is why it is important to know what is on your aircraft, where it is, and how it works, especially when stepping into a new plane, and why it is irresponsible for people to advocate anything less. Brings to mind the thread on this very forum a month or so back about jumping into a new plane. My older Skyhawk has an autopilot - a simple one for sure, but someone hopping into it might not notice it if it wasn't pointed out. POH review, cockpit check, familiarization are important.
MAKG1
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It's good to know if the AP will fly you into a stall. BUT, it's not legal per the POH. For the 182T, the KAP140 has a limitation in the supplement that prohibits operation below 80 KIAS or above 160 KIAS. For the GFC700, it's 70-165 KIAS.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Couldn't agree more which is why I am amazed at the growing camp on BeechTalk (including some 'mentors') who seem to think that the big takeaway from this accident is to avoid any airplane with electric trim.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
...The takeaway should be if you're not exactly sure how a component operates and how to disable it to prevent a dangerous situation in the event of a malfunction, then learn those things.
Lots of airplanes with electric trim haven't killed pilots and I bet some of them have malfunctioned. The difference being the pilot was prepared to deal with the malfunction... and the failure didn't manifest itself as a fatal accident cause.
I think perhaps some(maybe me too even) are jumping the gun a bit. Could it be possible that something other than an autopilot/trim malfunction caused the control difficulty? I'm no mechanic so I can't say, but I assume there are a lot of cables, pulleys, pivots, etc... which all could possibly fail, causing control difficulties.
Gubbins
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gone for good
Briefly. Then you disengage that, and start pulling CB's or hit the master switch. I'd pull the relevant CB. That servo can't do much without power
.And also work on beefing up your muscles
MAKG1
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Briefly. Then you disengage that, and start pulling CB's or hit the master switch. I'd pull the relevant CB. That servo can't do much without power
And also work on beefing up your muscles
That will take care of the servo, but not the out of trim forces.
Just pointing out it's not as easy as some people have assumed.
182 trim forces are a lot more substantial than 152/172. This was in a G1000/GFC700 182T.
The fun part is that you have to hold those forces off one handed while you fiddle with CBs or the five different master switches in a G1000 -- or the trim wheel. And you need two left thumbs if you're going to press the disconnect switch and trim switches at the same time like the POH says.
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SixPapaCharlie
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If I had run away trim and killed the master and both alternators
Would I still have full trim applied? I just turned off power to the trim motor so it isn't going to go back I imagine...
Would I still have full trim applied? I just turned off power to the trim motor so it isn't going to go back I imagine...
MAKG1
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Yes, you will have to wind off the trim somehow. If you just killed the electric trim, you'll have to do it with the trim wheel. One handed, while you push/pull real hard.
I've flown PA28s and 182s with electric trim, and they all had trim wheels, too. If your Cirrus doesn't, I guess you get to pull the chute.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's not that hard IF you know the airplane and where the various disconnects are.
I've experienced runaway trim (nose down) in a Duchess. It was a non event, but I had it disconnected before the trim got to the full deflection.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hold the bank until you get the problem figured out and resolved...not the most intuitive response, but effective in most cases.
Hank S
En-Route
If this event causes you to go home and study up on the systems in your plane, and think about failure modes and what to do, then this forum is worthwhile. This is it's whole purpose! If two people do so, it's an overwhelming success. Sounds like several here are doing that. Good!
Getting a checkout in a new plane is also good, but you've got to have an instructor who knows both the plane (make & model) and the equipment installed in it. May take two instructors, one to get you proficient flying the plane, and one on the different GPS, AP, etc. The closer together these are, the better.
Ya'll be careful out there!
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
RIP. It sure sounds like he was under trained for the aircraft and then got overwhelmed and never really found or could fix the problem. Then maybe 'Jesus take the wheel' took over.
It'll be interesting to hear what the final judgment is on this accident.
It'll be interesting to hear what the final judgment is on this accident.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
Maybe I'm hearing things differently than most here. At one time he said he pulled the breaker, the right one who knows. He also stated he had to fight the controls almost opposite of what you would think the AP would do, then again no altitudes for compensation were said.
RIP
RIP
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SixPapaCharlie
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Yes, you will have to wind off the trim somehow. If you just killed the electric trim, you'll have to do it with the trim wheel. One handed, while you push/pull real hard.
I've flown PA28s and 182s with electric trim, and they all had trim wheels, too. If your Cirrus doesn't, I guess you get to pull the chute.
Yeah, I got no trim wheel
