Flight training update (What would you do)

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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Hello,

In a previous post, I mentioned that I was looking into Flight training. I priced one at $15,000 for everything, (Books, Written, 40 hrs..etc). I looked into another school and they quoted me at $8,000 for everything. That is a big difference in price and they are at the same airport and I would be flying a Cessna 172 in both schools. I wanted it in writing, (The 8,000 dollar school) and they wouldn't give it to me because they mentioned prices change daily, I also asked for some information so I can remember and they didn't have anything just a postcard. Both schools are at the same airport, on the same block.

What would you do? I don't have any pilot friends to bounce this off so I depend on you guys input. As always it's very appreciated.


Thanks
 
I'd say the 8K is much more in line with what I'd expect. I would not be concerned about the school not putting it in writing. The price of AV gas can fluctuate and who knows how longit will take you to get your ticket,55, 65,75 100 hours.

Also IMHO I would not pay for your traing up front, I'd pay for it as you go. If the flight school goes belly up there is a slim chance you will see your money again. Best of Luck.
 
I paid around $8K a few years ago but don't tell my wife. She thinks it was somewhere around $5K.

I agree with not paying up front. The deal I had with my school was that at long as I had a positive balance on account I would get discounted flight time. I never kept more than a couple of hundred in there at any one time. Good thing to because they closed and took my $85 with them!

I also wouldn't expect anything in writing. There is no guarantee to the school that you will finish in a predetermined number of hours so every hour over the minimum of 40 is more you have to pay. And that could be solo time, dual, or maybe even more ground time. All of which are charged at different rates.

I would be interested in what the school charging $15K gives you. That's a lot for anything close to 40 hours.
 
What would you do?
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I got all my ratings in a club (Commercial ASEL, Instrument). Better airplanes, lower costs and, most importantly, my choice of club member instructors with thousands of hours of real-world experience. Not kids who have never flown outside of the local area and whose eyes are on the airlines. You can sometimes find experienced instructors at the FBOs/schools but they are the exception rather than the rule. For one thing, they won't work for dirt like the kids do.

I would strongly encourage you to check into clubs. AOPA has a website listing clubs and you can also often find club memberships for sale privately on CraigsList. When I started, I figured that even if I lost my upfront investment, my net cost would still be less that going the flight school route. Now, with over 1,000 hours I am still happy with the club concept.

Re fixed prices, anyone who gives you a fixed price is taking a risk on your ability and dedication and on the price of fuel. They cover that risk by charging a higher price. Nothing wrong with it. If you plan to train frequently and study diligently, though, you will probably be better off taking that risk yourself.

Also IMHO I would not pay for your training up front, I'd pay for it as you go. If the flight school goes belly up there is a slim chance you will see your money again.
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Absolutely. If you pay up front you are what is referred to as an "unsecured creditor" and in a bankruptcy you probably won't see a dime. Another factor: If you are unhappy with the school or change your mind about being a pilot, you may find it difficult or impossible to get the balance of your money back.
 
Are you looking at an all in accelerated program or just flying a day or two a week open ended?
 
You can figure out the expected cost.
Primary aircraft rental, 40 hrs x$/hr, plan on 60 hrs. $150 x 60 = $9000
20hrs instructor x $/hr, plan on 30 hrs. $50 x 30 = $1500
Factor fuel cost increase, books $400, headset $150, test and flight examiner fees.

Easily $12K total or more.

Ask what the $8K covers, xx hours aircraft, XC hours instruction, books, headset.
Then plan on extra hrs to complete. Last I checked, national average was 65-70 hrs to private pilot.
 
BillTIZ said:
You can figure out the expected cost.
Primary aircraft rental, 40 hrs x$/hr, plan on 60 hrs. $150 x 60 = $9000
20hrs instructor x $/hr, plan on 30 hrs. $50 x 30 = $1500
Factor fuel cost increase, books $400, headset $150, test and flight examiner fees.

Easily $12K total or more.

Ask what the $8K covers, xx hours aircraft, XC hours instruction, books, headset.
Then plan on extra hrs to complete. Last I checked, national average was 65-70 hrs to private pilot.
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Average may be 60-70 hours, but average certainly isn't 20 hours of CFI time..
So figure Minimum, and figure average. And hope that you are at least average?

You probably will be, if you fly frequently...
 
ja_user said:
Average may be 60-70 hours, but average certainly isn't 20 hours of CFI time..
So figure Minimum, and figure average. And hope that you are at least average?

You probably will be, if you fly frequently...
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Cost me about $12k in Long Beach, CA. Passed the checkride at 60 hours. If you are looking to save and there is an LSA available in your area, you may want to go the Sport pilot route (two seats, day only, LSA only). I expect you could pass your checkride somewhere around 35 to 40 hours for sport pilot.

Rarely do I need to exercise my PP privileges. I would have been fine with SP, but since I have a PP ticket I'm not complaining.
 
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FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

In a previous post, I mentioned that I was looking into Flight training. I priced one at $15,000 for everything, (Books, Written, 40 hrs..etc). I looked into another school and they quoted me at $8,000 for everything. That is a big difference in price and they are at the same airport and I would be flying a Cessna 172 in both schools. I wanted it in writing, (The 8,000 dollar school) and they wouldn't give it to me because they mentioned prices change daily, I also asked for some information so I can remember and they didn't have anything just a postcard. Both schools are at the same airport, on the same block.

What would you do? I don't have any pilot friends to bounce this off so I depend on you guys input. As always it's very appreciated.


Thanks
Click to expand...

$15,000 for an estimate of 40 hours in a 172 is stupidly expensive. Books and written is only a few hundred dollars. You are paying for the CFI and the plane. Everything else is chump change.

The "books" cost me $140 for a Gleim pilot kit that had everything. My written and checkride, $300. Ground school was $285 (10 weeks). And this is in the D.C. area. Not exactly a cheap place to live.

Your price at 40 hours should be around $7500 in an analog 172 (including a pilot kit and ground school). Then plan to actually spend 9k because it'll probably end up taking you 50-55 hours or so.

15k for 40 hours and books? lol…I'd love to see their breakdown. Do you have a link to their website?

I'm sure I'll get pushback from all those who took 70 hours to pass, but in my opinion there's almost no reason it should take that long unless you fly so infrequently that you are continually having to re-do lessons.

Also, don't rent a 172 unless that's all you can find near you. Training in a 172 is pointless if there's a 152 you can get into for $40 less an hour. I use a Cherokee that's $105 an hour wet (block rate). Garmin 430 and fully IFR equipped.
 
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I paid just over $10K for my PPL and could have paid less. But, I wanted to get my PPL at a Class C airport, so that I could get max mic time. Additionally, I went from a ratty 172 until solo, then upgraded to a nicer 172 for my solo time. So the difference between $8K and $15 is a lot of money. But, what does that money get you?
 
Do the cheap one. If you find one cheaper than the cheap one, then go with that one.
I found an independant CFI on Craigslist. The two schools I checked out quoted 13k and 15k. I went with the Craigslist guy. I think I spent around 8k.
 
You don't need it in writing, nor would you want to be tied down anyway just in case they go under.

Find a good school and assuming you aren't 6'2+ 200+ pounds, find the smallest, cheapest plane you can. C152s usually go for around $100 wet. Cherokee 140s are usually cheaper then 172s.

Most schools offer block rates. I prepay $1000 at a time to save $20 an hour off the wet rate for the Cherokee I use.

There's just no reason any school should be quoting 13-15k in my experience, at least in the lower 48. That's just crazy to me. You are in Florida so there should be no shortage of schools within an hours drive. Even if it took me 90 hours at my current school, I'd be under 15k. The idea that some are paying that much for 40 hours (as the OP implies from their quote) just sounds unbelievable to me.
 
And since I didn't see anyone else say it: Don't prepay more than you are willing to risk losing. If you can buy a block of time and save (previous poster) it's OK, but DO NOT prepay for the whole course. 1) It ties you into the school and if you don't like them or things don't work you're stuck 2) there have been many that have gone out of business and all the students just lose their money.

John
 
I think I paid around 10-11k overall, but it took me a while. If you can train regularly and do it ~60hrs you should be under 10k. That is unless you are training in something that rents for over $150/hr.
 
Tex_Mike said:
I paid around $8K a few years ago but don't tell my wife. She thinks it was somewhere around $5K.

I agree with not paying up front. The deal I had with my school was that at long as I had a positive balance on account I would get discounted flight time. I never kept more than a couple of hundred in there at any one time. Good thing to because they closed and took my $85 with them!

I also wouldn't expect anything in writing. There is no guarantee to the school that you will finish in a predetermined number of hours so every hour over the minimum of 40 is more you have to pay. And that could be solo time, dual, or maybe even more ground time. All of which are charged at different rates.

I would be interested in what the school charging $15K gives you. That's a lot for anything close to 40 hours.
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"Just give us your money and nothing in writing" is a red flag for me in other aspects of my life but I guess flying is different?

15K covers everything including unlimited flying in the simulator, that was what I was told!
 
kujo806 said:
I think I paid around 10-11k overall, but it took me a while. If you can train regularly and do it ~60hrs you should be under 10k. That is unless you are training in something that rents for over $150/hr.
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60 Hours under 10k is a good price. I didn't get that with the 8k school they only offered 40 hours! I read it on this website unless you have a flying background you are going to do it over 40 hours.
 
jsstevens said:
And since I didn't see anyone else say it: Don't prepay more than you are willing to risk losing. If you can buy a block of time and save (previous poster) it's OK, but DO NOT prepay for the whole course. 1) It ties you into the school and if you don't like them or things don't work you're stuck 2) there have been many that have gone out of business and all the students just lose their money.

John
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From the info I got from you guys it seems like schools go under all the time. Why do you think that is?
 
FloridaPilot said:
"Just give us your money and nothing in writing" is a red flag for me in other aspects of my life but I guess flying is different?

15K covers everything including unlimited flying in the simulator, that was what I was told!
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Except that sim time for a private pilot candidate isn't all that useful.

What is the breakout of the two programs? What makes the $15k one more expensive? CFI time? Rental rates? Add ons?
 
Bonchie said:
$15,000 for an estimate of 40 hours in a 172 is stupidly expensive. Books and written is only a few hundred dollars. You are paying for the CFI and the plane. Everything else is chump change.

The "books" cost me $140 for a Gleim pilot kit that had everything. My written and checkride, $300. Ground school was $285 (10 weeks). And this is in the D.C. area. Not exactly a cheap place to live.

Your price at 40 hours should be around $7500 in an analog 172 (including a pilot kit and ground school). Then plan to actually spend 9k because it'll probably end up taking you 50-55 hours or so.

15k for 40 hours and books? lol…I'd love to see their breakdown. Do you have a link to their website?


I'm sure I'll get pushback from all those who took 70 hours to pass, but in my opinion there's almost no reason it should take that long unless you fly so infrequently that you are continually having to re-do lessons.

Also, don't rent a 172 unless that's all you can find near you. Training in a 172 is pointless if there's a 152 you can get into for $40 less an hour. I use a Cherokee that's $105 an hour wet (block rate). Garmin 430 and fully IFR equipped.
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They won't break it down on the website but they showed me a sheet that I have to look for. I thought 15k was a bit expensive because I'm not interested in flying to build hours for the airlines so I told myself to look at other schools. I do remember they wanted 165/hr for a Cessna 172, plus fuel. The first thing they asked was how much do I weigh, (I'm a fairly muscular guy) I told them 260 and I am about 6 foot 2. So that was the plane they recommended!
 
Bonchie said:
You don't need it in writing, nor would you want to be tied down anyway just in case they go under.

Find a good school and assuming you aren't 6'2+ 200+ pounds, find the smallest, cheapest plane you can. C152s usually go for around $100 wet. Cherokee 140s are usually cheaper then 172s.
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I am 6 foot 2 200+ lbs :)
 
Brad Z said:
Except that sim time for a private pilot candidate isn't all that useful.

What is the breakout of the two programs? What makes the $15k one more expensive? CFI time? Rental rates? Add ons?
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The 8k course didn't give me any documentation nor did they give me a break down. If they did I would've signed up on the spot. The most expensive one did a I thought it was too expensive.
 
So, $15k burning a hole in the pocket, with a itch to fly. Here's what I would do(and what I did).

A. Find an indie CFI by putting up some flyers around the local airports, ask around here, and on the red board.

B. Once you've got the CFI lined up, get on barnstormers, and find a plane you can fit in around $15k. It won't be pretty, and it won't be new, but it'll fly and get your ticket.

C. Schedule with your CFI to fly your plane, when you want.

D. Option: After you get the rating, sell the plane, or take on partners.
 
FloridaPilot said:
They won't break it down on the website but they showed me a sheet that I have to look for. I thought 15k was a bit expensive because I'm not interested in flying to build hours for the airlines so I told myself to look at other schools. I do remember they wanted 165/hr for a Cessna 172, plus fuel. The first thing they asked was how much do I weigh, (I'm a fairly muscular guy) I told them 260 and I am about 6 foot 2. So that was the plane they recommended!
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That explains the 15k number. 165 + fuel is ridiculous. I'd laugh and walk out. That's just plain price gouging. I don't see how they can stay in business at that rate unless they are the only school within a 100 miles.

Most regular 172s, wet (fuel included) go for around $140 an hour in the US. I could train in a Cirrus around here (non-turbo SR20 is $200 an hour here) for less then they are wanting to charge for that 172.

At your size a 172 will fit you fine.
 
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165 + fuel is ridiculous.
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Amen!

I am still thumping the drum for the OP to consider clubs. I just checked one of the smaller clubs in our area, with two 172s, and they are getting $58 dry per tach hour. (For the OPs benefit: When training, tach hours will be significantly less than Hobbs hours -- like 20% less.) A second club I checked is $40/tach hour dry for a 172. Dues in the first club are $65/month and the second, $125.
 
NEVER pre pay for flight training, unless you can afford to lose it and move on:yikes:

I most I will do is to pay 10 hrs upfront to get one hour free. I pay for it the day before or the day of my first trip that taps into the 11 hrs.

There have been numerous flight schools that change ownership or go out of business.

The only real way to go for the OP is to just pay by the hour. What if you get 10 or 20 hour into training and you don't like it or for some other reason you can't finish it at that location?
 
There's two flying clubs at SRQ you might want to look at. One has a C-172 for $100 wet.



FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

In a previous post, I mentioned that I was looking into Flight training. I priced one at $15,000 for everything, (Books, Written, 40 hrs..etc). I looked into another school and they quoted me at $8,000 for everything. That is a big difference in price and they are at the same airport and I would be flying a Cessna 172 in both schools. I wanted it in writing, (The 8,000 dollar school) and they wouldn't give it to me because they mentioned prices change daily, I also asked for some information so I can remember and they didn't have anything just a postcard. Both schools are at the same airport, on the same block.

What would you do? I don't have any pilot friends to bounce this off so I depend on you guys input. As always it's very appreciated.


Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Before plunking down big bucks (I hope you don't do that, but if you do), fly with a couple different places. Most offer discovery flights. Take one. There's no law that says you can't take two or three from different schools. Interview the instructors. Ask questions. You're going to be investing some serious bucks. If you were buying a car, you'd be asking questions too. This is no different. Talk to students. Ask how their experience was.
 
Pay by the hour as you go. DON'T prepay because they may go out of business and you will lose your money. Sorry, but that is the way it is.
 
I'd ask other pilots around your area who taught them. Usually there is a smaller airport not too far away with an older CFI with ALOT of hours. He may even offer to teach you in a taildragger. Locally there's an excellent instructor who will teach you in a Citabria 150 or give you some hours in it. Excellent instruction and a great confidence builder. Many questions appear on this site including stalls, angle of attack, rudder input, spins, that apparently were not demonstrated correctly in their training. It's a shame as this oftentimes can save your life or at least keep you from sloppy flying. Please do not prepay. I'm also big on bi annuals as I get sloppy myself. It's good to ride with a pro. Helps me a lot.
 
airdale said:
Amen!

I am still thumping the drum for the OP to consider clubs. I just checked one of the smaller clubs in our area, with two 172s, and they are getting $58 dry per tach hour. (For the OPs benefit: When training, tach hours will be significantly less than Hobbs hours -- like 20% less.) A second club I checked is $40/tach hour dry for a 172. Dues in the first club are $65/month and the second, $125.
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I contacted a few clubs in my area and I haven't gotten a response yet. Some of the clubs in my area shut down. I'm in Ruskin/Palmetto FL
 
coloradobluesky said:
Pay by the hour as you go. DON'T prepay because they may go out of business and you will lose your money. Sorry, but that is the way it is.
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That is a considerable amount of money to just to vanish just like that. Thanks for the warning, I will keep it in mind.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Before plunking down big bucks (I hope you don't do that, but if you do), fly with a couple different places. Most offer discovery flights. Take one. There's no law that says you can't take two or three from different schools. Interview the instructors. Ask questions. You're going to be investing some serious bucks. If you were buying a car, you'd be asking questions too. This is no different. Talk to students. Ask how their experience was.
Click to expand...

I took a discovery flight a few years ago, (Bay Air) Whitted airport in Saint Pete FL I enjoyed it, great pilot I flew with. He told me to find out what happens in October, once October came around they were gone!
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I'd ask other pilots around your area who taught them. Usually there is a smaller airport not too far away with an older CFI with ALOT of hours. He may even offer to teach you in a taildragger. Locally there's an excellent instructor who will teach you in a Citabria 150 or give you some hours in it. Excellent instruction and a great confidence builder. Many questions appear on this site including stalls, angle of attack, rudder input, spins, that apparently were not demonstrated correctly in their training. It's a shame as this oftentimes can save your life or at least keep you from sloppy flying. Please do not prepay. I'm also big on bi annuals as I get sloppy myself. It's good to ride with a pro. Helps me a lot.
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Thank you,

There is an airport right next to me which is a grass strip (48X) when I go there nobody's there. I will keep trying probably on a Saturday. I didn't have any luck during the week.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
There's two flying clubs at SRQ you might want to look at. One has a C-172 for $100 wet.
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John,

I'm going to apply and go to BOTH places to get a feel for the people.


Thank You,

You are a lifesaver!
 
I contacted a few clubs in my area and I haven't gotten a response yet.
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Don't be discouraged if the clubs are less responsive than a for-profit business. Inquiries are probably going to this year's "membership chairman" who may or may not have a lot of time and energy for the job. A volunteer's responsiveness doesn't tell you a thing about the club. Same story on web sites. The best club may have the worst web site while the worst club (for you) might have a genius webmaster member.

After you do make one or two contacts, don't be afraid to ask about other clubs in the area. While clubs are in competition with each other to an extent, most club members will have joined their club after shopping the local market. Some will even have spreadsheets listing clubs and comparing airplanes, rates, monthly dues, special assessments, etc. that they will share with you if you ask.

Since it sounds like you don't have a lot in the way of pilot friends or mentors, be sure to ask about club events, meetings, etc. that would allow you to join a community rather than just joining a loose bunch of guys with a couple of hangars and airplanes. The community aspect will vary a lot from club to club.
 
airdale said:
Don't be discouraged if the clubs are less responsive than a for-profit business. Inquiries are probably going to this year's "membership chairman" who may or may not have a lot of time and energy for the job. A volunteer's responsiveness doesn't tell you a thing about the club. Same story on web sites. The best club may have the worst web site while the worst club (for you) might have a genius webmaster member.

After you do make one or two contacts, don't be afraid to ask about other clubs in the area. While clubs are in competition with each other to an extent, most club members will have joined their club after shopping the local market. Some will even have spreadsheets listing clubs and comparing airplanes, rates, monthly dues, special assessments, etc. that they will share with you if you ask.

Since it sounds like you don't have a lot in the way of pilot friends or mentors, be sure to ask about club events, meetings, etc. that would allow you to join a community rather than just joining a loose bunch of guys with a couple of hangars and airplanes. The community aspect will vary a lot from club to club.
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0 Pilot friends but I always wanted to fly since I was a kid. So far the people on here has been great and I appreciate any bit of info that comes my way. I'm going to work the Sarasota airport and see what I can find.

What is the average membership dues that you have come across?
 
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