Flight simulator good or bad?

tyler0421

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tyler0421
I've searched the forum and haven't found any debates on this. I have never flown in a smaller plane much less flown one. It looks like it will be a year or two before I can start training for my private. My question is in the meantime should I get a simulator with a yoke and pedals and practice on it til I can start training or should I just wait so I'm not picking up any bad habits? Thanks for the input.
 
For primary training, I would say a simulator with yoke and pedals for a home computer won't do much for you. Primary training is all about visual reference to the outside, and you really can't get a feel for that on MSX. Not only that, there are alot of procedures with checklists that you won't really get a feel for either.

On the other hand, if you were doing instrument training, a home flight simulator can be great for practicing tracking NAVAIDs and other type stuff.
 
I just started my private again after a long layoff, and I'm not a pilot - yet. Take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that it can be somewhat helpful; especially if you have never done any type of flying or sim training. The cost is so small compared to actual flight training.

The simulator certainly has very little to do with real-world feel and flying but it does give you some familiarity of the controls. I used a book called "Microsoft Flight Simulator X For Pilots Real World Training", got some photorealistic terrain for the Albuquerque area that I fly in, and went through the lessons in the book. It served to give me some familiarity with the area, locate things in the cockpit and some basic feel controlling a plane. The book's lessons were pretty helpful in providing a foundation.

The bad habits that I have developed revolve around paying too much attention to the instruments, and not enough time on sight picture and what is happening outside of the cockpit.

Having said all of that, I am great on the sim, but you wouldn't have known I did any sim training based upon my performance during my first lesson :)

Kevin
 
I've found it helps a little (X-plane, Mac, CH eclipse yoke) It's very realistic, you're just missing the feel. What it will be excellent for is IFR training. Everything works just like the real thing.
 
I've searched the forum and haven't found any debates on this. I have never flown in a smaller plane much less flown one. It looks like it will be a year or two before I can start training for my private. My question is in the meantime should I get a simulator with a yoke and pedals and practice on it til I can start training or should I just wait so I'm not picking up any bad habits? Thanks for the input.
The PC sims, especially MSFS don't behave like real airplanes (X-Plane is the closest) but the real issue is that without some instruction you will indeed develop bad habits. Even if you had a CFI sitting next to you, PC sims leave you with a very strong tendency to be looking at the instruments instead of flying by the visual references outside the airplane.
 
I got X-Plane and Saitek yoke/pedals earlier in my training. It's fun, and occasionally useful (esp. for VORs, night, and IFR). While the flight model is pretty good, you do miss out on the feels and the sounds of the real thing, not to mention the mental workload of juggling aviating, navigating, talking to ATC, dialing in the next AWOS, dealing with your chart and navlog, etc. I think it's better than nothing, but at the end of the day, it's only a simulation and is not a replacement for experience.

Incidentally, I find the same to be true in the radio control world; I can practice a maneuver in the simulator, but there's a huge impedance mismatch when translating it to the real world.
 
I got X-Plane and Saitek yoke/pedals earlier in my training. It's fun, and occasionally useful (esp. for VORs, night, and IFR). While the flight model is pretty good, you do miss out on the feels and the sounds of the real thing, not to mention the mental workload of juggling aviating, navigating, talking to ATC, dialing in the next AWOS, dealing with your chart and navlog, etc. I think it's better than nothing, but at the end of the day, it's only a simulation and is not a replacement for experience.

Incidentally, I find the same to be true in the radio control world; I can practice a maneuver in the simulator, but there's a huge impedance mismatch when translating it to the real world.

Well spoken. So far, I have discovered that I lose about 40 IQ points when I enter the cockpit. It is a crazy place! Simulator's don't simulate the stress of the cockpit. I'm thinking that will improve as I get more time :)
 
If you have an instructor who is used to integrating MS Flight Sim into the syllabus, it can be quite helpful in understanding certain aspects of flying.

Otherwise, I have to agree with the sentiment that "practicing" on your own on MS flight sim will develop bad habits that will take extra effort to correct and overcome.

Other devices like the Redbird FMX AATD are much better and have a wider range of application in primary training.
 
If you have an instructor who is used to integrating MS Flight Sim into the syllabus, it can be quite helpful in understanding certain aspects of flying.

Otherwise, I have to agree with the sentiment that "practicing" on your own on MS flight sim will develop bad habits that will take extra effort to correct and overcome.

Other devices like the Redbird FMX AATD are much better and have a wider range of application in primary training.

Agree.

And even the best instrument training sims (I have system at home based on OnTop that can be qualified for PCATD, and I've used the fixed sims at flight schools) only go so far toward instrument training/proficiency. I find it much easier to do instrument flying in the plane than the sim, but the sim is great for keeping fresh on eye scans, procedures, and failures that can't be easily done in the plane.

For primary training, its of very limited value. For instrument, it is of much more value.
 
I flew 40 minutes in the Redbird the other day with a failed G1000 AHARS, and cursed the software developers because they don't yet simulate the G1000 aux page that lets you change what fields are shown on the MFD. What I do in the REAL airplane is set two of those fields to DTK (Desired Track) and TRK (Track), as with that information one doesn't need a lot of heading information. But I didn't have that info so I had to use the compass and timed turns - which is my normal practice if I don't have heading or track info. Still, even with all that, I navigated to the nearest ILS and flew it to touchdown and was always within .5 NM of the arrival course, and then the ILS was never more than a dot off through the FAF to the MAP. So I'm confident that I can fly on the backup instruments and still navigate if my G1000 ever turns into a moving map and a turn coordinator.
 
Here's the deal....if you haven't already been simming with Flight Simulator, I wouldn't start now - Like others have said, if you start now and play with it for a year before starting real flight training, you could really develop some bad habits that can be hard to break.

FWIW, MSFS is an outstanding piece of software. I and countless others have used it and found that it really made the PPL go a whole lot quicker than it might have taken otherwise. I would disagree with the comments above about the planes not behaving like real ones. There are actually many addons with extremely accurate flight models (minus the feel of the controls).

I did my PPL in a PA28 and had an addon PA28 in the sim that I would use to practice pattern work when I couldn't go up with my CFI - It definitely helped keep the stuff I was learning in the actual plane very fresh.

The other thing that MSFS is great for is to familiarize yourself with all of the different avionics out there. When I started renting different airplanes, I found it very easy to use the different radios, GPS units...etc because I had played around with all of the stuff in the sim.

Best advice for you at this point is to get MSFS when you actually start flight training and use it to reinforce the lessons you learn in the real airplane.
 
For primary training, its of very limited value.
Totally disagree - it can be very valuable for primary training, but you must understand the limitations and potential pitfalls so that you don't develop the bad habits.
 
Totally disagree - it can be very valuable for primary training, but you must understand the limitations and potential pitfalls so that you don't develop the bad habits.
I agree with this. I know quite a few young people who have told me that they got interested in flying after using flight simulator programs. I think it gives people a head start on knowing what the instruments and controls do, unlike me who didn't have a clue. People just need to realize that flying the real thing is quite different.
 
It's usefulness is limited, but it is a little helpful for certain things. After being away from flying for 20 years I spent the $40 for FSX and rigged up a cheap joy stick. It managed to get me a little practice in following the artificial horizon, altimeter, vertical speed indicator and DG. Within a few hours I had my understanding of their interaction back in my brain. It probably saved me an hour or maybe two in the air.

If you were further along in your flying and wanted to learn how the VOR worked and a few other things it might be helpful.

What it WILL NOT do, is give you the feel of the airplane. I don't know if it was in this forum or another where a flight instructor took up someone who had a zillion hours on flight simulator and was insistent that he could fly and land a plane with no other training whatsoever. The instructor said that the FSX ace couldn't even hold the wings level and was no farther along than any other pilot in their intro flight.

All that said, since you have a few years before you can get in the air why not spend some time on it? It could serve to maintain your interest and as long as you realize that it's not going to make a pilot out of you it will give you some familiarity with various different things you will need to learn anyway.

My $0.02,
Doc
 
I would agree that for primary training, a simulator is valuable for learning some of the aircraft's instrumentation and systems, but that's about it.

I have done some currency holds and approaches with the certified version of X-Plane and a CFI, and I thought it was very valuable for IFR training. The CFI saw no value in completing any approach to a landing, and the only value of taking off was just to get some familiarity with the flight characteristics of the simulator. The biggest complaint I had was the trim function didn't work effectively - but that might have been a hardware or setup problem.

But even for IFR training and currency, there are a lot of procedural items that tend to get missed, even with a CFI beating on you, such as communications, navaid ID's, transponder settings, etc... so relying on it too heavily in that environment can also potentially instill bad habits.
 
FWIW, MSFS is an outstanding piece of software. I and countless others have used it and found that it really made the PPL go a whole lot quicker than it might have taken otherwise. I would disagree with the comments above about the planes not behaving like real ones. There are actually many addons with extremely accurate flight models (minus the feel of the controls).

What I found the worst with the default aircraft was the flying / rolling transitions - for example you could land the "Baron" at purd near red line with no trouble at all. No "wheelborrowing" or anything like that. Are the add ons any better with that kind of thing?
 
Totally disagree - it can be very valuable for primary training, but you must understand the limitations and potential pitfalls so that you don't develop the bad habits.

+1. I flew MSFS since 1998 because I always wanted to fly but couldn't afford to learn. I flew the "lessons" that Rod Machado taught on the sims - slow flight, steep turns, navigation etc - and most of it trasnlated nicely once I actally got into a real airplane. My instructor attributed my learning some things so quickly to my flying the sim.

That being said - it did teach me to look more at the instruments than flying by visual reference. A bad habit I had to overcome. Things like stalls don't carry over well since the feel of the plane has a lot to do with handling stalls. It doesn't translate to real-life flying in as many ways (maybe more) than it does. And I would never do some of the things in real life that I did in the sim :hairraise: All in all though, I think that - in my case anyway - it helped me more than it hurt. I just didn't realize where it hurt until I actually started flying.
 
What I found the worst with the default aircraft was the flying / rolling transitions - for example you could land the "Baron" at purd near red line with no trouble at all. No "wheelborrowing" or anything like that. Are the add ons any better with that kind of thing?
If we are talking default aircraft, I would wholeheartedly agree with you - they stink.

There are a ton of addons though that are very accurate though.

Also, there are a few more advanced maneuvers that are generally not modelled accurately in the sim - spins for example.
 
FWIW, MSFS is an outstanding piece of software. I and countless others have used it and found that it really made the PPL go a whole lot quicker than it might have taken otherwise. I would disagree with the comments above about the planes not behaving like real ones. There are actually many addons with extremely accurate flight models (minus the feel of the controls).

Mayor Daley hated it. After all, you could take off from Meigs and aim for a nearby building.

Totally disagree - it can be very valuable for primary training, but you must understand the limitations and potential pitfalls so that you don't develop the bad habits.

Hence, my opinion that it's very limited. You won't learn to fly from it, the visuals really aren't good enough to have you focus on spotting aircraft and collision avoidance (critical skills), and the lack of full motion sensation really can't substitute for the real thing. Having said that, there is value in practicing instrument techniques, though the lack of full motion does make it less than optimal. At the same time, the controls really don't duplicate the feel in the aircraft.

YMMV, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but in MY personal opinion the value is limited.
 
All I am saying is that there is a big difference between saying its value is limited and saying its value is very limited.
 
All I am saying is that there is a big difference between saying its value is limited and saying its value is very limited.

I'd disagree. But YMMV.

I see nothing wrong when sims are used as a secondary or tertiary tool by or under the direction of a CFI. The greatest benefit are for instrument procedures.

And to be clear: we're talking about simple sims, not the full-motion stuff like the airlines use.
 
My instructor is old fashioned and anti-sim.

My computer is old and probably couldn't handle a good one anyways.

I have not seen / used a sim (ever). I like that my learning tool IS THE AIRPLANE and not the F5 button or some joystick that is supposed to be a yoke.

That is just me. It is fun to go sit in an airplane. If I can't, in the beginning of my training, I wrote down the "steps" for each manuever and tried to chair fly / memorize them (descend to TPA, re-do your power setting, look at distance from runway in relation to the strut on downwind, what to do abeam the numbers all the way to landing etc).

Kimberly
 
My simple view:
Sims are not a good tool to prepare you for primary training, but once you begin, they can help reinforce the training, but only if they are considered "enhanced chair flying".
"Chair flying" refers to what instructors (like mine) encouraged students to do before the advent of the personal computer: sit in a chair and pretend you're making a typical training flight. With a little suspension of disbelief, it works very well. A program like MSFS or X-Plane just adds a little eye candy and a touch more realism as regards task flow and (to a limited extent) visualization of course, altitude, etc.

If the gist of your question is more along the lines of "is it a bad idea to have fun sim-flying while I am a primary flight student?", my answer is "It depends on how well you can separate the real experience of shooting landings in a trainer from flying the Concorde inverted under a bridge."

From what I've heard, instructors today seem divided about 50/50 on the "bad habits" thing... for every "Kid's a simmer; tries to fly the damn plane like he's sitting at home; can't teach him anything" I hear at least one "Simming has given him a pretty good overview; he already understands a lot about the aircraft systems and the procedures, he's doing better than my other students".

So it depends on the student, most of all. Same thing was true before these programs became available, really.
 
My computer is old and probably couldn't handle a good one anyways.
One of the downsides to sims - if you have a slow computer they really don't do well.

I like that my learning tool IS THE AIRPLANE and not the F5 button or some joystick that is supposed to be a yoke.
As it should be - the flight sim is not a substitute. If used properly it (the sim) can be an excellent tool to reinforce what you learn in the actual airplane because as you mentioned in another thread, money is often a limiting factor.
 
FWIW, MSFS is an outstanding piece of software. I and countless others have used it and found that it really made the PPL go a whole lot quicker than it might have taken otherwise. I would disagree with the comments above about the planes not behaving like real ones. There are actually many addons with extremely accurate flight models (minus the feel of the controls).
I agree that MSFS is pretty awesome, especially for the price but there's a pretty big disconnect between the simulated aircraft behavior and the real world if you go much beyond straight and level or shallow bank and pitch excursions. MSFS and most other PC "simulator" programs use rule based modeling which means their behavior was "designed" by a software programmer. X-Plane, OTOH, models the aerodynamics based on a structural model (wing size, shape, aircraft weight and CG, etc). As a result the flight characteristics aren't influenced by a programmer's lack of aerodynamic knowledge. In addition with X-Plane you can enter the physical characteristics of a different (or even imaginary) airplane and the simulator will "fly" it.
 
From what I've heard, instructors today seem divided about 50/50 on the "bad habits" thing... for every "Kid's a simmer; tries to fly the damn plane like he's sitting at home; can't teach him anything" I hear at least one "Simming has given him a pretty good overview; he already understands a lot about the aircraft systems and the procedures, he's doing better than my other students".
Use of a PC sim can improve a student's flying knowledge but not his flying skill.
 
Folks, since some of you have taken exception to my view on the value of simming, go back and actually READ my posts. Nowhere did I say that MSFS was a viable substitute for the real airplane. I even recommended that the OP not use the sim before beginning his flight training.

There is obviously no substitute for the real thing. However, saying things like PC based flight sims have very limited or no value in PPL training is sticking your head in the sand.

If you still don't believe that, here is a real example:

I got my PPL at 45 hrs (actually was ready for the signoff at the min 40, but did some additional solo stuff while waiting for the checkride to get scheduled). Thing is that it took me a whole year to complete those 45 hrs. Most instructors will tell you that if a student can't fly regularly, then it takes a bit longer to get the training done because you have to keep going back and reteaching lessons. I didn't have that problem even though there were months where I only flew once or twice the whole month. I was able to do this because of MSFS. I could go up with my CFI learn new stuff and then spend the time in between lessons practicing the same stuff on the PC. I wasn't learning anything new - just reinforcing what I was learning in the real plane. While there are plenty of maneuvers that you can't really do well in the sim, you'd be suprised at how much you can.

You can disagree all you want, but I know for a fact that it saved me a ton of money.



Follow your dreams....

You can reach your goals....

....I'm living proof...

BEEFCAKE!
 
I've been an 'armchair pilot' for 15+ yrs. I've been a real world Sport Pilot Student since April 2011.

Basic quick outline based on my experiences.


PRO'S
- Cockpit & General Instrument familiarization
- Navigation System usage
- Flight Planning in General
- Radio Comm's: Using a system online called "VATSIM" I had a very good experience on learning how to handle the radios. Incredibly useful. You will find FSX's built in multiplayer has folks doing ATC but it's usually very relaxed. The VATSIM controllers can be a nightmare for newcomers (start with FSX multiplayer to get warmed up first). Many of the VATSIM controllers are real world controllers. Really raised my comfort level.
- Great comminity
- Plenty of neat add-ons some more complex than you might imagine

CON's
- My training aircraft does not have an Artificial Horizon instrument and that was really uncomfortable for the first flight or two. Although if your going for your PPL directly that shouldn’t affect you.
- Instrument response in a real aircraft (Airspeed, Altimeter, etc) is much slower and clunky compared to the Sim and that can be confusing.
- The feel an response of a real airplane (obviously..)

Since beginning flight school in April, I've elected to stay away from Sims until my primary training is over with. (Try to do something like go home and practice a forward slip after doing one in the real world and it will just leave you frustrated!)

There will always be a place in my 'hanger' for simulators in the future though, just in a different capacity.
 
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I've had a mixed bag of experiences with students that have previous flight sim time. I'd say that I'm conflicted about it. It's frustrating trying to break a student of bad habits right from the get-go, but IF the student manages to avoid bad habits like flying by instruments from the get-go, etc... it can be OK.

Ryan
 
I've searched the forum and haven't found any debates on this. I have never flown in a smaller plane much less flown one. It looks like it will be a year or two before I can start training for my private. My question is in the meantime should I get a simulator with a yoke and pedals and practice on it til I can start training or should I just wait so I'm not picking up any bad habits? Thanks for the input.

There are only so many bad habits one can pick up. It's a pretty short list: over-reliance on instruments, poor rudder control or none at all, and poor or non-existing use of trim. There may be others, but beats me what they might be.

The only one that is not so easy to correct with current inexpensive hardware is trim. Nobody does that right (without paying thousands.)

I used Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 (also known as FS9 among simmers) a little both before and during my flight training. I used CH Products yoke and rudders. I later added a Track IR system. All this on a computer that is about 5 years old, though I did modify it with a newer graphics card and power supply to power it.

It is not needed, but if you can afford it, buying a couple hours of flight lessons in a real airplane will give you enough experience to know what the important differences are. Focus on how trim works and forces needed at different speeds (these two are related.)

I strongly recommend using a simulator. Please ignore those who say not to; they either don't know how to integrate it into training, are too lazy to learn how to, or draw bogus conclusions from anecdotes. Once they are identified, it is easy to avoid or mitigate the problems with simulators. For example, there are modes to limit or remove instruments from the screen (and 3D mode with Track IR makes it a bit harder to read the instrument panel anyway. Also nice to turn your head a little and check the runway position on downwind and base.) A set of rudder pedals helps (though note how, like the yoke, you'll have to imagine the forces needed.)

Spend a few bucks on add-on aircraft similar to whatever you think you may eventually train in; the built-in aircraft are not always that great. I bought Flight One's C-152 model since that was the plane I used in my real training; it did a pretty good job of simulating things - even stalls (though they were pretty aggressive, which was a good thing.)

During my real training I was getting into the bad habit of trying to pick up a dropping wing on stalls with the yoke. I hadn't tried stalls in the simulator. So to see if the simulator could help, I set myself up in scenario on final just a few hundred feel from landing. Then I'd do one power-off stall after another; during the stall the simulator would punish me severely by spinning me in if I used any non-trivial amount of aileron to pick up the dropping wing. If I used rudder only to pick the wing up and good yoke control I could avoid the crashes. Kept doing it till I was consistent. Next day the practice paid off in the real thing.

I also did use the simulator to practice radio work - you don't need anything fancy for doing this for nontowered fields.
 
MSFS was a huge help to me when I started flying; it really helped me to learn VORs and general airplane characteristics in a safe environment. I still get on there from time to time and let my 3 year-old play around. After all, where else can you fly a 747 inverted on one engine?
 
I suggest waiting until you start training, and then getting your instructor to integrate the sim into the training program. Trying to learn things on your own using a sim of dubious fidelity is a good way to teach yourself bad habits and inappropriate techniques.
 
I like MSFS, I used it when I was getting my PPL and now when I'm working on my IR.

That been said, I use it to REVIEW the lesson I've flown. Radio practice (outloud), Checklists, ADM, multitasking, etc.

Not great for landing practices, but its good for the mental checklist - "I'm turning final, my altitude should be xxx, I'm above the numbers I should..."

I agree that "Learning" from the Sim is probably not a good idea.
 
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