Flight Sim as real Flight hours!

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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There is a Flight school out here in Florida that if you fly the schools simulator they will credit you for real hours and log it into your log book. Now I have a Flight Simulator setup at home, (Throttle, Yoke, Pedals...the whole setup) and I also tried another SIM at Sun and Fun. I got into a real airplane and there is very little similarities. The only thing I can think of is the pedals and where to steer the yoke. IFR might be good and maybe some procedures like talking to ATC.

How are schools able to get away with that? It's tempting but I know down the road I'm only cheating myself.

What do you folks think?


Thanks for your input!
 
Ron Levy will comment in 3... 2... 1...
 
61.4 Qualification and approval of flight simulators and flight training devices.

(a) Except as specified in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, each flight simulator and flight training device used for training, and for which an airman is to receive credit to satisfy any training, testing, or checking requirement under this chapter, must be qualified and approved by the Administrator for—
(1) The training, testing, and checking for which it is used;
(2) Each particular maneuver, procedure, or crewmember function performed; and
(3) The representation of the specific category and class of aircraft, type of aircraft, particular variation within the type of aircraft, or set of aircraft for certain flight training devices.
(b) Any device used for flight training, testing, or checking that has been determined to be acceptable to or approved by the Administrator prior to August 1, 1996, which can be shown to function as originally designed, is considered to be a flight training device, provided it is used for the same purposes for which it was originally accepted or approved and only to the extent of such acceptance or approval.
(c) The Administrator may approve a device other than a flight simulator or flight training device for specific purposes.





And similar language about the administrator approving a device in other sections.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
61.4 Qualification and approval of flight simulators and flight training devices.

(a) Except as specified in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, each flight simulator and flight training device used for training, and for which an airman is to receive credit to satisfy any training, testing, or checking requirement under this chapter, must be qualified and approved by the Administrator for—
(1) The training, testing, and checking for which it is used;
(2) Each particular maneuver, procedure, or crewmember function performed; and
(3) The representation of the specific category and class of aircraft, type of aircraft, particular variation within the type of aircraft, or set of aircraft for certain flight training devices.
(b) Any device used for flight training, testing, or checking that has been determined to be acceptable to or approved by the Administrator prior to August 1, 1996, which can be shown to function as originally designed, is considered to be a flight training device, provided it is used for the same purposes for which it was originally accepted or approved and only to the extent of such acceptance or approval.
(c) The Administrator may approve a device other than a flight simulator or flight training device for specific purposes.





And similar language about the administrator approving a device in other sections.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comment!

I understand that it's within the law and flight schools probably wouldn't put something out there unless it was legal.

To be a SAFE and Competent pilot though I have my doubts. To be honest this is what the training is suppose to be about.

I know there are going to be times when the weather doesn't hold up and we can't go out flying in VFR but substituting real flight hours in a sim? No thanks I rather wait until the weather clears up.
 
FloridaPilot said:
There is a Flight school out here in Florida that if you fly the schools simulator they will credit you for real hours and log it into your log book. Now I have a Flight Simulator setup at home, (Throttle, Yoke, Pedals...the whole setup) and I also tried another SIM at Sun and Fun. I got into a real airplane and there is very little similarities. The only thing I can think of is the pedals and where to steer the yoke. IFR might be good and maybe some procedures like talking to ATC.

How are schools able to get away with that? It's tempting but I know down the road I'm only cheating myself.

What do you folks think?


Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...

They can log it is real sim time, provided it's an faa approved training device. That's not the same as flight time though. It's useful for instrument training, but not for working on your private.
 
In order to count time as actual aircraft time (including landings) you need a Level D sim, which I doubt this is. Level D sims cost tens of millions of dollars and need to have the actual aircraft components in them for that specific aircraft. It's the kind of thing you use for type ratings in big iron.

You can, however, count approved sims with an instructor as simulator training. It does count towards your total time, but still doesn't count the same as an aircraft.
 
Part 141 School, and they've been doing it for several years now with AFTD's. You do NOT need a Level D simulator. Simply an approved device. I had 36 hours combined time and completed PPL checkride and I'm confident that I am just as proficient, safe and knowledgeable as any "traditionally trained" pilot in my class.

Check out Redbird Flight Simulations and ProFlight Academy so that you understand what all the great benefits of using a simulator are. Using a simulator as a training device has NOTHING to do with "feel of flight". Why would you need that from anything other than the plane? You wouldn't. But I love how the cronies like to harp on that as though it's some type of point to make.

What you do need are the abilities that a simulator give you, that you would be wasting time, money, and fuel doing it in the airplane. That's from PPL all the way to ATP, period.

I'll leave it at that.
 
Last edited:
Archammer said:
Part 141 School, and they've been doing it for several years now with AFTD's. You do NOT need a Level D simulator. Simply an approved device. I had 36 hours combined time and completed PPL checkride and I'm confident that I am just as proficient, safe and knowledgeable as any "traditionally trained" pilot in my class.

Check out Redbird Flight Simulations and ProFlight Academy so that you understand what all the great benefits of using a simulator are. Using a simulator as a training device has NOTHING to do with "feel of flight". Why would you need that from anything other than the plane? YOu wouldn't.

What you do need are the abilities that a simulator give you, that you would be wasting time, money, and fuel doing it in the airplane.

I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...

That is true, according to the school it only has to be an approved device. I have a Flight Sim at home, I tried one at Sun and Fun as well the differences I came up with is the Yoke is very sensitive in a Sim, not so much in a Real Airplane. I found myself steering "Very light" expecting an immediate response when I took the controls of an actual airplane. The advantage of flying in a SIM is I knew exactly where all of the controls were and I thought that was pretty cool. But I couldn't substitute real flight hours for flying in a SIM. I know the costs are different, (50 per hour flying in a SIM) but IMO real flying is different.
 
Brad Z said:
They can log it is real sim time, provided it's an faa approved training device. That's not the same as flight time though. It's useful for instrument training, but not for working on your private.
Click to expand...

This means a letter from the local FSDO specifying which Part 61 training requirements can be met in that sim, not just a blanket "FAA approved" statement. BTDT.

Bob Gardner
 
different part of the world but my AN-32 type rating was done entirely in a sim. My first flight in the airplane was in revenue service.
 
JHW said:
different part of the world but my AN-32 type rating was done entirely in a sim. My first flight in the airplane was in revenue service.
Click to expand...

Same for me with a two different jet types here in the US. Don't think that varies much geographically. The type of training we get in the sims can not be safely recreated in the real airplane.
 
The sims are really good for instrument procedures but not really private stuff. I saved a bunch of money and logged around 15 hours in my schools Redbird sim towards my instrument rating
 
Brad Z said:
They can log it is real sim time, provided it's an faa approved training device. That's not the same as flight time though. It's useful for instrument training, but not for working on your private.
Click to expand...
Many Part 141/142 programs have approval to count some flight simulation device time toward the required 35 hours for PPL under those Parts. In addition, even under Part 61...
a maximum of 2.5 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device representing the category, class, and type, if applicable, of aircraft appropriate to the rating sought, may be credited toward the flight training time required by this section, if received from an authorized instructor.
Click to expand...
See 14 CFR 61.109(k) for details.

In any event, as noted above, sim time doesn't count as "flight time", but if the simulator is properly approved, and there's an instructor supervising, the time and hours may be legally used for many FAA purposes. You just have to log it properly and know the limits of the device you are using (which should be covered in the Letter of Authorization for that particular system).

I would also point out that when used properly, flight simulation devices can be very powerful training tools, helping save time and cost, and making training time more productive. We at PIC couldn't do our 10-day instrument rating course in ten days without them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In order to count time as actual aircraft time (including landings) you need a Level D sim,...
Click to expand...
Can you point to the regulation which allows even Level D sim time to be logged as "flight time"? I know the landings in devices at this level can be logged for currency, and a complete type rating course and practical test can be conducted in one, but I was not aware the time could be logged as "flight time".
 
I'm not so sure about the "saving money" part when it comes to the RedBird full motion sim. The local place rents it for $90/hr (not including CFI) and I can buy an hour's worth of gas in my plane for less than that.
 
Ron Levy said:
In any event, as noted above, sim time doesn't count as "flight time",
Click to expand...

In §1.1, the FAA defines "flight time" as:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;
Click to expand...

So flight time is defined as pilot time. But I can find no definition of "pilot time" in either the CFRs or the AIM P/CG.
 
Ron Levy said:
Can you point to the regulation which allows even Level D sim time to be logged as "flight time"? I know the landings in devices at this level can be logged for currency, and a complete type rating course and practical test can be conducted in one, but I was not aware the time could be logged as "flight time".
Click to expand...

Not off hand, and perhaps I'm confusing "aircraft time" for landings/currency.
 
dans2992 said:
I'm not so sure about the "saving money" part when it comes to the RedBird full motion sim. The local place rents it for $90/hr (not including CFI) and I can buy an hour's worth of gas in my plane for less than that.
Click to expand...

Yikes, that is expensive! But, even so, you can bang out a half dozen approaches in under an hour on the sim's hobbs. Drop all the pre-takeoff and after-landing stuff, as well as the en route time. Still cheaper, but obviously if you're building hours that doesn't really help!
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Same for me with a two different jet types here in the US. Don't think that varies much geographically. The type of training we get in the sims can not be safely recreated in the real airplane.
Click to expand...
yeah no kidding. I must have died a dozen times in the sim. In the real airplane that can only be recreated once.
 
dans2992 said:
I'm not so sure about the "saving money" part when it comes to the RedBird full motion sim. The local place rents it for $90/hr (not including CFI) and I can buy an hour's worth of gas in my plane for less than that.
Click to expand...
But with the sim you can start in the air at altitude, so you can get more approaches done per hour. No taxiing, no runup, no flying to the practice area....plus no hood, actual IFR conditions.
 
dans2992 said:
I'm not so sure about the "saving money" part when it comes to the RedBird full motion sim. The local place rents it for $90/hr (not including CFI) and I can buy an hour's worth of gas in my plane for less than that.
Click to expand...

I don't know where you live but here in Florida it's 50 per hour. That is CHEAP and you get credit for your hour as flight time:

http://www.flyuft.com/aircraft+fleet.html

Scroll all the way down to the bottom!
 
teejayevans said:
But with the sim you can start in the air at altitude, so you can get more approaches done per hour. No taxiing, no runup, no flying to the practice area....plus no hood, actual IFR conditions.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't mind learning how to recover from spins and certain flying disasters which would be difficult to simulate in a real airplane.

I understand it's cheaper and I'm okay with it, but don't you think it's shortcutting your actual flying skills? I learn early on that if you want to be good at something never take shortcuts, put in the time.

Just my two cents!
 
acrophile said:
In §1.1, the FAA defines "flight time" as:


So flight time is defined as pilot time. But I can find no definition of "pilot time" in either the CFRs or the AIM P/CG.
Click to expand...
Try 61.1:
Pilot time means that time in which a person-- (i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
Click to expand...
So, while all flight time is pilot time, not all pilot time is flight time, and sim time is pilot time, but it is not flight time.
 
teejayevans said:
But with the sim you can start in the air at altitude, so you can get more approaches done per hour. No taxiing, no runup, no flying to the practice area....plus no hood, actual IFR conditions.
Click to expand...
Not only that, the instructor can stop for explanations, back up and try something again, etc. Far less time wasted, and much easier to teach.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I wouldn't mind learning how to recover from spins and certain flying disasters which would be difficult to simulate in a real airplane.
Click to expand...
The sorts of flight simulation devices we're talking about for light GA training (FTD's and ATD's) will not help you learning how to recover from spins or deal with most other maneuvering issues. They are much more procedures trainers than anything else, and generally lack fidelity when it comes to control feel and response.
I understand it's cheaper and I'm okay with it, but don't you think it's shortcutting your actual flying skills? I learn early on that if you want to be good at something never take shortcuts, put in the time.
Click to expand...
No, it's not that at all. It's a training aid which can be very useful teaching the trainee procedures, instrument interpretation, etc, without having to worry about ATC, other traffic, etc. It also, as I said above, allows the instructor to stop the show and go over a point, as well as letting the trainee make a big mistake without anybody getting hurt or any metal getting bent -- and that can be a really good learning experience.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I don't know where you live but here in Florida it's 50 per hour. That is CHEAP and you get credit for your hour as flight time:

http://www.flyuft.com/aircraft+fleet.html

Scroll all the way down to the bottom!
Click to expand...


No, it doesn't.

Great for keeping IFR Currency! Credit 10 hours toward your IFR, and 3 toward your Private Licence!
Click to expand...

It's credited towards meeting the requirements of your instrument rating, private ticket, or meeting currency requirements, but not FLIGHT time.
 
Brad Z said:
No, it doesn't.



It's credited towards meeting the requirements of your instrument rating, private ticket, or meeting currency requirements, but not FLIGHT time.
Click to expand...


I also called the school earlier and they verified that the SIM can be used as flight time for your PPL.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I also called the school earlier and they verified that the SIM can be used as flight time for your PPL.
Click to expand...
Either you misunderstood them or they misspoke (I suspect the former). As noted in 61.109, you can substitute sim time for some of the required flight time, but it still goes in your log as sim time, not "flight time".
 
FloridaPilot said:
I also called the school earlier and they verified that the SIM can be used as flight time for your PPL.
Click to expand...

As their web page states, the SIM can be used for just 3 hours of time credited towards your PPL. Those are, I suspect, the 3 hours that are required in your total logged hours as "3 hours of flight training by reference to instruments in a single engine airplane"

The device qualifies for that requirement, and none of the other time requirements for the PPL.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I also called the school earlier and they verified that the SIM can be used as flight time for your PPL.
Click to expand...

Please read the several posts on this thread. Sim time is still not flight time. STOP CALLING IT FLIGHT TIME!
 
deltaindia said:
As their web page states, the SIM can be used for just 3 hours of time credited towards your PPL. Those are, I suspect, the 3 hours that are required in your total logged hours as "3 hours of flight training by reference to instruments in a single engine airplane"
Click to expand...
That is not how 61.109(k) reads. Unless I read it wrong, the allowable 2.5 hours (the limit other than under Parts 141/142) in a sim does not substitute for the required training "in a single engine airplane". It may, however, be used towards the 20 hours of flight training and the 40 hours total time. At best, outside 141/142,you would still have to get at least 0.5 hours in flight.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I understand it's cheaper and I'm okay with it, but don't you think it's shortcutting your actual flying skills? I learn early on that if you want to be good at something never take shortcuts, put in the time.
Click to expand...

As others have stated the real value is in procedures, particularly when pursuing an IFR rating. I did 20 hours of my instrument training in a full motion sim (I think the rules have been slightly reinterpreted since to only allow 10?) and it was an advantage, not a shortcut. We could do all kinds of approaches in one session, pause and review, and my instructor could fail instruments unexpectedly and without my knowledge (I.e. more realistically than with a postit note covering the dial).

I think you're just not grasping how a simulator session works - you don't just take off, fly a two hour cross country, land, and log the time. You work procedures, emergencies, and scenarios either because you CAN'T do them in the air, or because you can practice them more efficiently in the sim.
 
cataero said:
And more changes are coming for FAA-approved training devices:

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...-for-the-use-of-faa-approved-training-devices
Click to expand...


The FAA has determined that it may not use LOAs as a means to exceed express limits that have been placed in the regulations through notice and comment rulemaking
Click to expand...
:rofl: Guess AFS-800 lost that battle with AGC-200. So much for the LoA's AFS-800 issued which said you could log instrument currency on ATD's without an instructor present -- in direct violation of the plain language of 14 CFR 61.51(g)(4) and an AGC-200 letter interpretation. AFS-800 went to the mat with the Chief Counsel's office over that, and it appears the Administrator has spoken.
 
Personally, I think the simulator can help instrument flying and practicing little things. BUT I do not think it can replace real flying experience in a real airplane. I would suggest getting hours in real aircraft because in the long run thats where you will get experience. Best of luck! :)
 
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