Flight Schools?? Big or Small? ATP?

[rtbayne01072]

Greetings all!!

I am a college student starting my senior year, and I 'am seriously considering going into being a pilot as a career. Aviation has always been an interest of mine and I'm young and figured I'd try to go for it now before I get tied down with other things in life. I've been taking flying lessons at a small pay as you go local flight school for about a month trying to get my private licence.

I've been looking pretty hard into going to a bigger flight school such as ATP or somewhere like that to get my training for muilt-engine, commercial etc. My main draw a bigger flight school they seem to have better networking/job placement. But they are super expensive.

So I guess my question is, are these bigger flight schools really worth the money?? Do people who train with them have a better shot at landing a job? Upon my graduating college this may I will have a pretty significant amount of student loans to pay back so I don't want to get myself into more debt right off the bat unless I absolutely have to.

Thanks!!

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Whats your degree in?

 

[Zeldman]

Flight hours count, not the flight school. Beware of flight schools that promise a job after you get all your certificates. I started at a big flight school and left when I found out that billing flight time was more important that making pilots. I am at where I am in flying because of my flight hours and choice of what I wanted in flying, not the flight school I went to.

 

[James331]

ATP is crap and they don't have any real connections.

The connections you want you will have to make by networking yourself.

Look at smaller schools and independent CFIs

Look into building hours in gliders.

Look into the search function on this forum.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

ATP is crap and they don't have any real connections.

The connections you want you will have to make by networking yourself.

Look at smaller schools and independent CFIs

Look into the search function on this forum.

Yes to all of these. Didn't do the glider route to build hours so I can't vouch for it.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I like the schools that have a DE that owns the school (or somehow is associated with the school). Your checkride is scheduled when you show up. Intensive training with a checkride at the end. Any failed or continued checkrides are remedied by more instruction and another checkride. Everyone capable, comes away with a rating.

Such a system isn't perfect. You don't get breadth of experience or the experience that comes with taking longer time. But you also don't have to put up with changing instructors as much (or if you do change, it's managed), and endless forever delays. Schools that work this way are efficient and want to get you through. You can sign up with the local guy who fought in WW2 at your home base and learn all about four course ranges from him. Get tailwheel rating local, aerobatic (if there is anyone good), crosswind landing specialist training local if you want. But for your important ratings, private, IFR, commercial (comm is one you might knock off locally), multi, go with a school with some backup instructors and planes that has it's own DE.

Go to a school where ratings can be done in weeks, instead of months or even years, or never at all.

Except for how to land, and being taught to use the trim all the time, and some other private maneuvers, most of what I have learned, I taught myself anyway. Get so you can pull the power abeam the numbers and then land on them without touching the throttle. You can do that on your own! Go out and enter a the same hold from all three directions, then do that for every possible hold at the intersection. INSIST on really understanding holds. Fly the same ILS over and over and over until you can do it in your sleep. These are all things you can practice and become good at on your own. Everything really. Only trouble is, it's expensive.

Just one pilots opinion.

 

[James331]

...

Go to a school where ratings can be done in weeks, ...

Meh, not sure that's a good thing.

Especially if you're trying to go career. Take in all you can, get the most out of your time training, do that networking, hang around the airport and talk, you'd be surprised what you can learn, for free too :wink2:

Leave the rush mentality for fast food, not education and networking.

 

[Henning]

Military is your best bet, if you can get a slot. The big school programs have advantages and disadvantages. If you are already a college senior though, the time and structure advantages would probably be worth the extra cost as well as the connects that you can make through program deals they make with carriers to provide them starry eyed slave labor. You are young and 5-7 years is the 'dues paying' time in any industry and with luck of not being furloughed or your carrier going under, you'll be in a reasonable position in your 30s assuming you are a 'traditional student'.

There are a lot of ways to make money in aviation besides flying, so you may want to develop one or two of those as well, because your flying career only lasts as long as your medical, and that can disappear in a literal and proverbial 'heartbeat'. It's an unstable career for sure so have a contingency, but you're the right age to make a go of it, so if you want to go for it, hit AllATPs and the big schools and see what they are doing and what their programs are. If you are a dedicated student, the big 141 schools will get you into the right seat of a Regional airline faster than a Pt 61 program; but that comes at a price.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

If you do consider the military, you could always do the guard/reserve. Guys that are prime for doing it are in your position. Have their private pilot license, and just finished college. It's definitely not like your typical air force. You'd basically go in to fly 1 weekend a month(more if you wanted to), and you'd be building some sweet time on Uncle Sam's dollar.

 

[Henning]

If you do consider the military, you could always do the guard/reserve. Guys that are prime for doing it are in your position. Have their private pilot license, and just finished college. It's definitely not like your typical air force. You'd basically go in to fly 1 weekend a month(more if you wanted to), and you'd be building some sweet time on Uncle Sam's dollar.

There's a bit of luck in timing there as well. I remember times when the F-15 guys at the Guard statin in St Louis were getting 30hrs a year under Reagan. It all depends on where we are in the cycle of war spending.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

There's a bit of luck in timing there as well. I remember times when the F-15 guys at the Guard statin in St Louis were getting 30hrs a year under Reagan. It all depends on where we are in the cycle of war spending.

Very true. Thats also true about hiring as well. One guy in my pilot training class competed against probably 15 other applicants, some of them were aeronautical engineers with masters degrees in physics and recommendations from other guys in the unit. One guy was the only guy that applied for his unit. It all depends. Most guys apply to many different units in many different states.

 

[James331]

If you go military, keep in mind that part of "paying your dues" will involve killing anyone who is unfortunate enough to pull the short straw with whoever the current administration is, and whoever needs to be killed for special interests.

It's not always about "defending freedom" and savin' the children.

Just be sure you have your eyes wide open and you're down with the mission.

 

[Henning]

If you go military, keep in mind that part of "paying your dues" will involve killing anyone who is unfortunate enough to pull the short straw with whoever the current administration is, and whoever needs to be killed for special interests.

It's not always about "defending freedom" and savin' the children.

Just be sure you have your eyes wide open and you're down with the mission.

That's never been what it's about, occasionally it will produce that as a fringe benefit, but it's never the cause for engagement; if it was we'd have done something in Central Africa.

 

[1600vw]

I wish when I was your age I had my head on straight as it sounds you do. Good for you for having a dream, seeing it, and going for it.

Keep your eye on the ball.

Tony

 

[ClimbnSink]

I've done both, other then fancy ads the big schools do nothing special. That said if you are carrying student debt from college the last thing you want to do is borrow more. Go to a little school, get a part time job at an airport, the connections will be way better then anything a pilot mill can deliver. Avoid more debt to be a pro pilot you need to be able to afford to live like a bum for a few years.

 

[LDJones]

Yes to all of these. Didn't do the glider route to build hours so I can't vouch for it.

Gliders are awesome, but not great time-builders unless you're in a really good location, preferably one with a good, long ridge line and cooperative prevailing winds. On a per-hour basis, my glider flying is some of my most expensive hours...fun, but expensive!

 

[davidm767]

Caution....With the new ATP-R requirements: Part 61 is no longer coveted.

My take...as a experienced CFI from a College based flight program I had students go all different directions after graduation (121, 91, 135)...and yes a good number of my students already have their bachelors (most are VA).

ARE YOU GOING 121?

DO NOT DO part 61 for instrument or commercial...seriously, stop. With the ATP-R rule, you can get to the airlines much much quicker by doing a 141 school, more specifically a 141 with a 250 hour reduction agreement with the FAA (there are a few out there...the likes of ATP, American Flyers, OR Community College programs). Are you going to get connections through that school? Depends (my school has pipelines with several regionals), but connections dont necessarily mean a whole lot to the regionals right now as they only care about requirements (due to a shortage of knuckleheads selling their souls for $22K/year). Although 250 hours may not seem that bad, depending on location, thats 3-5 months at a busy flight school as an instructor or a few months as a banner/crop/rubber dog poo cargo pilot.

NOW lets say you get to that time requirement....now you must to choose the new CTP program which requires you to shell out even more money to fly a 40,000 lb aircraft simulator for 10 hours and attend a 30 hour class to even take the written. who can do that? Who can offer? Only Part 141 approved houses.

Save the headache by going Part 141 (the preferred method by a few regionals who still have hiring standards).

PART 135:

Part 141 is encouraged, but not required. If you are going to land a solid 135 job, you will likely need a few connections. Honestly all you need is 500hrs, which can be done in a relatively short time span. Part 61 is OKAY because if you find a good 61 school that can cheaply (but dont put a discount on experience...sometimes paying a little more can pay off in dividends) get you there.

Part 91

Okay, unless your family...close buddy...or flight instructor has friends who have friends in high places, Part 91 is hard to get. It is coveted by non-airline type rated pilots think Learjet, Cessna jet, Bombardier, or Gulfstream. It is 100% who you know, with requirements only needed to be made for their insurance. If you know the right person it doesn't matter if you got training at a Part 61 flight school. No biggie as long as you are a good pilot, well connected, and can cleanly pull your self together.

 

[James331]

Caution....With the new ATP-R requirements: Part 61 is no longer coveted.

My take...as a experienced CFI from a College based flight program I had students go all different directions after graduation (121, 91, 135)...and yes a good number of my students already have their bachelors (most are VA).

ARE YOU GOING 121?

DO NOT DO part 61 for instrument or commercial...seriously, stop. With the ATP-R rule, you can get to the airlines much much quicker by doing a 141 school, more specifically a 141 with a 250 hour reduction agreement with the FAA (there are a few out there...the likes of ATP, American Flyers, OR Community College programs). Are you going to get connections through that school? Depends (my school has pipelines with several regionals), but connections dont necessarily mean a whole lot to the regionals right now as they only care about requirements (due to a shortage of knuckleheads selling their souls for $22K/year). Although 250 hours may not seem that bad, depending on location, thats 3-5 months at a busy flight school as an instructor or a few months as a banner/crop/rubber dog poo cargo pilot.

NOW lets say you get to that time requirement....now you must to choose the new CTP program which requires you to shell out even more money to fly a 40,000 lb aircraft simulator for 10 hours and attend a 30 hour class to even take the written. who can do that? Who can offer? Only Part 141 approved houses.

Save the headache by going Part 141 (the preferred method by a few regionals who still have hiring standards).

PART 135:

Part 141 is encouraged, but not required. If you are going to land a solid 135 job, you will likely need a few connections. Honestly all you need is 500hrs, which can be done in a relatively short time span. Part 61 is OKAY because if you find a good 61 school that can cheaply (but dont put a discount on experience...sometimes paying a little more can pay off in dividends) get you there.

Part 91

Okay, unless your family...close buddy...or flight instructor has friends who have friends in high places, Part 91 is hard to get. It is coveted by non-airline type rated pilots think Learjet, Cessna jet, Bombardier, or Gulfstream. It is 100% who you know, with requirements only needed to be made for their insurance. If you know the right person it doesn't matter if you got training at a Part 61 flight school. No biggie as long as you are a good pilot, well connected, and can cleanly pull your self together.

Wow, now that there is some misinformation.

First off the restricted ATP, or R-ATP is a marketing tool, it's not a real license and no airline is going to hire you with those hours, period. The R-ATP is a just a tool for ERU, ATP Inc and the like to attract uneducated kids to fork over money.

There are still PLENTY of unemployed ATPs, also the R-ATP isn't a IACO recognized license.

By the time you have a few thousand hours (like 2-3k) and are invited to a interview no one is going to care how you got there.

Also your first job IS NOT going to be crop dusting (AG), it's not going to be flying freight, I would not compare those jobs to a first time CFI gig.

 

[CTLSi]

Wow, now that there is some misinformation.

First off the restricted ATP, or R-ATP is a marketing tool, it's not a real license and no airline is going to hire you with those hours, period. The R-ATP is a marketing tool for ERU, ATP Inc and the like.

There are still PLENTY of unemployed ATPs, also the R-ATP isn't IACO recognized license.

By the time you have a few thousand hours (like 2-3k) and are invited to a interview no one is going to care how you got there.

Also your first job IS NOT going to be crop dusting (AG), it's not going to be flying freight, I would not compare those jobs to a first time CFI gig.

My understanding is the ATP deal is a lot like the trucking industry. A bunch of trucking schools making wild promises about driving a truck and how their school has the magic ticket to get you into the industry.

 

[rtbayne01072]

Thank you everyone for the replies!!!

Didn't Expect to have so many replies so promptly!

That was alot of mixed opinions, but I'll address a few things that I got. First to Gucci Pilot My degree will be in Physical Education, So my thought process is possible get a teaching job and continue flying lessons during my weekends and summers at the local flight school I'm currently at.

As far a Military goes, I was seriously looking into the air force about 2 years ago but I heard that a very small percentage actually gets to fly. (understandable they want the best of the best). And I fully support our country 100% but at the end of the day all I want to do is fly.

So from what I'm getting it doesn't matter where I go (for flight school) as long as you get the flight hours. I kinda figured ATP ads were sketchy as far a guaranteed job. (seems like you become there slave as a CFI).

Also davidm767 I'm not sure what you mean by 191, 135. Is this the type of flight school?

 

[Henning]

If you want to fly military, your best chance is Army, but you fly helicopters for the most part. Navy flys more planes than the AirForce does, but I don't know what the cockpit requirements will be going forward. Both the F-22 and F-35 can be made pilotless in a 'plug and play' process I'm sure, and most new development is pilotless.

 

[JimNtexas]

Forget the military. Your odds of a pilot training slot are tiny, and without an interest in being a military officer you'd be signing up for ten years of misery even if you happened to grab the golden ring.

Do study up on the new ATP rules, they are going to have a dramatic effect on the career paths of future professional pilots.

I think a school with an in house DPE does offer some advantages.

 

[davidm767]

Wow, now that there is some misinformation.

First off the restricted ATP, or R-ATP is a marketing tool, it's not a real license and no airline is going to hire you with those hours, period. The R-ATP is a just a tool for ERU, ATP Inc and the like to attract uneducated kids to fork over money.

There are still PLENTY of unemployed ATPs, also the R-ATP isn't a IACO recognized license.

By the time you have a few thousand hours (like 2-3k) and are invited to a interview no one is going to care how you got there.

Also your first job IS NOT going to be crop dusting (AG), it's not going to be flying freight, I would not compare those jobs to a first time CFI gig.

No I am not spreading misinformation. It is not a marketing tool. This is reality. I am currently witnessing the ATP-R hiring right now, with several carriers. Envoy, Mesa, PSA, Piedmont, Republic, Silver, Go Jet. They are ALL hiring ATP-R's right now. People like my co-workers, former students, friends, etc. Real people. These regionals used to be able to hire sub 1500 hour pilots (as low as 250), now the new ATP requirement prevents that.

This is also not 2008-2011, this is definitely not 2001-2. The Regionals are hurting bad for pilots. The days of flying cargo or 135 pax for the first few thousand hours are at present gone (industry is fickle though).

Why are ATP's unemployed and not rushing back to the open hiring fairs at the regionals? No brainer its the Mickey Mouse Regional FO pay.

ATP-R doesn't work for Legacy or Mainline, I will concede to that. Will it work for overseas carriers? No like you said its not ICAO. However you don't need 1000's of hours to get an FO job overseas as there is an even greater problem with finding pilots even with excellent pay!!!

Regional pilots are also having a hard enough time flowing to the Majors because the majors DO NOT have the shortage that the regionals do. Majors currently require several thousand hours, often several thousand TPIC time. Hard to get for a few years in regional.

Can you skip regional all together and still fly 121? Of course! but as you suggest you need thousands of hours, and at that point it doesn't matter 141 vs 61. What matters at that point is Turbine time, 135 vs 91 time, or in other words experience.

Now as far as military flying...It really is a great opportunity, since the OP is graduating soon I would suggest he try to apply for a OTS with a pilot slot. That way he doesn't blindly go into service with out knowing for sure about the opportunity. Personally would I have taken a pilot slot while I was serving in the AF? Yes I would have. Unfortunatly when I commissioned pilots were not in a great demand out of ROTC, and the slots were even more competitive. A great deal of my friends were pilots, and they all saw some great benefits (and huge downsides ie. constant deployments) all for free though. However, during my time in service I found a lot of great opportunities in aviation and leadership but outside the cockpit.

 

[James331]

. These regionals used to be able to hire sub 1500 hour pilots (as low as 250), now the new ATP requirement prevents that.

Could you please tell me which regional was taking 250hr pilots?

For quite a while regionals have been hiring guys that had ATP level hours even before the requirment for the ATP.

You have any idea the average amount of hours for a new hire regional pilot? For a major FO?

There were & still are more applicants than jobs.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Not trying to push the military in any way. But just wanted to dispel a few myths for any young folks that may be considering it.

As far a Military goes, I was seriously looking into the air force about 2 years ago but I heard that a very small percentage actually gets to fly. (understandable they want the best of the best). And I fully support our country 100% but at the end of the day all I want to do is fly.

With active duty this is true. It is competitive. Most of the Air Force Academy graduates get pilot slots. I would say in ROTC the selection rate was about 55-65% when I went through. Folks typically had 3.0 and above GPAs, got above 90% on their physical fitness tests, and scored middle of the pack on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test. The big thing that washes people out of the pilot slot phase is the medical.

With active duty, if you don't get a pilot slot or don't pass the medical, yes, you would be put in another career field. However in the guard/reserve, you interview for a PILOT position. If they don't select you, they say "thanks for coming out...try again next year" and you aren't on the hook for anything. If you do get selected, you are guaranteed to be a pilot.

If you want to fly military, your best chance is Army, but you fly helicopters for the most part. Navy flys more planes than the AirForce does, but I don't know what the cockpit requirements will be going forward. Both the F-22 and F-35 can be made pilotless in a 'plug and play' process I'm sure, and most new development is pilotless.

Judging from my military friends previous experience. Your best chances of getting a pilot slot are 1. Army, 2. Navy/Marines, 3. Air Force. None are impossible, but that just seems to be the order of ease.

Pretty much if you:
Want to fly helicopters...go Army/Marines
Want to fly fighters...go Navy/Marines
Want to fly heavies...go Air Force

Forget the military. Your odds of a pilot training slot are tiny, and without an interest in being a military officer you'd be signing up for ten years of misery even if you happened to grab the golden ring.

Do study up on the new ATP rules, they are going to have a dramatic effect on the career paths of future professional pilots.

Your chances of getting a slot truly depend on how much you actually want it. I know it isn't for everyone. But the perks are pretty sweet. Including the reduced ATP minimums. A lot of guys I know in the guard/reserves joined after completing a university aviation program and used it simply as a fast track to the airlines, and thats perfectly ok.

 

[Henning]

Could you please tell me which regional was taking 250hr pilots?

For quite a while regionals have been hiring guys that had ATP level hours even before the requirment for the ATP.

You have any idea the average amount of hours for a new hire regional pilot? For a major FO?

There were & still are more applicants than jobs.

There was a little while in the mid 2000s when the Majors dumped all their feeder and low seat routes over to the regionals and got rid of half their pilots and gear leaving the regionals scrambling for pilots. Some were hiring very low time pilots. Of course they were also the first furloughed when the economy crashed and the demand for air travel tapered.

 

[LDJones]

There was a little while in the mid 2000s when the Majors dumped all their feeder and low seat routes over to the regionals and got rid of half their pilots and gear leaving the regionals scrambling for pilots. Some were hiring very low time pilots. Of course they were also the first furloughed when the economy crashed and the demand for air travel tapered.

Yep...had coffee with a regional captain last week who told about one such young pilot. During his recurrent training he was paired with a nineteen year old with 300 hours who'd just been hired. Said he was the sharpest co-pilot he'd ever flown with. When it came time for his checkride, he asked for the kid "because I knew he wouldn't screw up!"

The "kid" is no longer with the airline....he's in medical school.

 

[tlglenn]

Right now it seems the major benefit of the restricted ATP is for those who took the ATP written last month, but aren't likely to get to 1500 hours by July 2016.