Flight Lesson: 02-12-10 - XC

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

Line Up and Wait
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665
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Texas
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Display name:
Dustin
The weather was quite scuzzy, but it was good enough to allow us to make a XC Flight to VCT. It was a fun flight.

I got to the airport early only to find my CFI already there. So we went in to his office and did some Dead Reckoning. My Flight Planing skills were quite rusty as I had not done a Flight Plan since October with my first CFI. After getting both Flight Plans together we headed out to the plane to Preflight. Once that was complete we taxied down to Runway Three One. After Take Off, we established Cruse and called the FSS to activate the Flight Plan. On our Flight Plan we had the Cruse Altitude at 1,500ft because the AWOS at BYY was reporting 1,600ft Overcast. We quickly found out that 1,500ft was just barely in the Clouds so we had to go down to 1,400ft to get below them. The Cloud Layer kept coming down as we flew farther and I stayed at 1,200ft for most of the Flight. As we flew on, my CFI turned on the LORAN to show me how to use it. After playing with it for a a little while it would not Display the info, so we just flew on using VOR and Pilotage to Navigate (Remember this part). I had some trouble staying on course, but found the Airport just fine.

This is where it got interesting, as VCT is Tower Controlled, and I had never talked to ATC before. I feel sorry for the poor guy sitting in the tower having to talk to me. I botched up the Calls pretty good till I got the hang of it. lol

About 5nm out from VCT I found out that I had forgot to finish up getting the headings for the return trip. So we got what we needed by navigating from VCT to the PSX VOR, then from the PSX VOR to BYY (This is where the LORAN would have been a big help lol). I made sure I was even more strict on keeping the needles on the VOR centered up, as well as knowing where I was on the Sectional at all times than normal. I stayed dead on course the whole time, and got to BYY with no problems.

Despite the Scuzzy Weather, and messing up the Flight Plan it was a great Flight, and I would not change it if I could. A few lessons Learned, that I'm glad I got with a CFI on board.

I logged 1.8 Hours, which brings me up to 35.3 Hours.
 
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Interesting lesson from several points of view.

First, tell us why the LORAN didn't work and won't work for the foreseeable future.

Next, tell us what airspace you were in. Maybe I misunderstood what you were typing but what are the cloud clearance requirements for the various airspaces?

Don't sweat the radio work, it'll come with time and practice.
 
Clark1961 said:
Interesting lesson from several points of view.

First, tell us why the LORAN didn't work and won't work for the foreseeable future.

Next, tell us what airspace you were in. Maybe I misunderstood what you were typing but what are the cloud clearance requirements for the various airspaces?

Don't sweat the radio work, it'll come with time and practice.
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I was just about to say that too..cmon snags you know the cloud clearances..:yikes: (1-5-2)

I am not familiar with LORAN, so I too am curious how it differs from lets say my ADF?

Also: I think its amazing to be tooling along at 1500 / 1400 / 1200 ft MSL, sheesh thats my pattern altitude around here...
 
One wonders if good ADM would have been to scrub for another day.
 
Clark1961 said:
First, tell us why the LORAN didn't work and won't work for the foreseeable future.

Next, tell us what airspace you were in.
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I don't know what was up with the LORAN. My CFI seemed to think it was broke, and that he was going to have a new one put in.

Most of the Flight was in Class Golf Airspace. VCT has a ring of Class Delta 5nm around it.

DutchessFlier said:
I am not familiar with LORAN, so I too am curious how it differs from lets say my ADF?
Click to expand...

It has a digital display that shows Distance to an Airport, the Heading needed to get to said Airport, and Corrections to help you stay on course.


EppyGA said:
One wonders if good ADM would have been to scrub for another day.
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the WX was not has bad as it sounds. Yeah, it was not the best XC weather, but I would have rather of had my CFI along for the ride rather than be a new Private Pilot flying in it.
 
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Snaggletooth said:
I don't know what was up with the LORAN. My CFI seemed to think it was broke, and that he was going to have a new one put in.
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Might not be worth the trouble and expense... :wink2:





It has a digital display that shows Distance to an Airport, the Heading needed to get to said Airport, and Corrections to help you stay on course.
Click to expand...

If there is a signal... :wink2:
 
Snaggletooth said:
I don't know what was up with the LORAN. My CFI seemed to think it was broke, and that he was going to have a new one put in.

Most of the Flight was in Class Golf Airspace. VCT has a ring of Class Delta 5nm around it.



It has a digital display that shows Distance to an Airport, the Heading needed to get to said Airport, and Corrections to help you stay on course.




the WX was not has bad as it sounds. Yeah, it was not the best XC weather, but I would have rather of had my CFI along for the ride rather than be a new Private Pilot flying in it.
Click to expand...

Bad answers. More work required. The hard lesson of learning to be a pilot is that you have to take care of yourself. There are other places to learn the lesson but few places where it is as focused as the cockpit.

I've run crews domestically, offshore, and internationally. I've taught at university and graduate level. I did not ask the questions lightly or without purpose. I hope you respond positively.

Have a good weekend but do your homework.
 
DutchessFlier said:
I was just about to say that too..cmon snags you know the cloud clearances..:yikes: (1-5-2)

I am not familiar with LORAN, so I too am curious how it differs from lets say my ADF?

Also: I think its amazing to be tooling along at 1500 / 1400 / 1200 ft MSL, sheesh thats my pattern altitude around here...
Click to expand...
LORAN is ground-based GPS, basically. It has thousands of transmitters that have been maintained by the Coast Guard and the CG are discontinuing that maintenance. There is not much point in maintaining the LORAN receiver when GPS is the system that will be used in the future. We used LORAN for our first trip out west ten years ago and found that coverage was pretty sparse even then. (Not many coasts to guard in Arizona?) Since then, when a transmitter goes down, it stays down.

As far as the altitudes, I'd agree that flying most of the way at 1200 is scud running, and not the best time to divide your attention to learning a new (and defective) tool. Best to have a talk with your instructor to get his view on risk management and decision-making. Seriously.
 
Snag, let me add that your enthusiasm and willingness to share with this community is delightful and refreshing. We all look forward to hearing from you about your progress. It brings back thos days when we couldn't figure out how to use the LORAN or the whatever and when we had to learn how to take off, land, and plan a trip.

Don't let our critical comments get you down. As I say, we love to see your posts. The reason you are getting jumped on this time is that we want you to be around to share your experiences and joy for a lot longer.

The three most important rules:
1. Know where you are.
2. Know where you are going.
3. Know what you will be doing next.
 
Interesting lesson from several points of view.

First, tell us why the LORAN didn't work and won't work for the foreseeable future.

Next, tell us what airspace you were in. Maybe I misunderstood what you were typing but what are the cloud clearance requirements for the various airspaces?

Don't sweat the radio work, it'll come with time and practice.
Click to expand...

Snag: Dakota Driver posted these questions to help you. You should take them seriously and look up the answers, post them here and get input. This is important.
 
Thanks for softening things Peg. As you say, we want other pilots to be around and flying tomorrow and the next day. We also want all of us to be well trained so that negative news reports are minimized.

I think Snag's instructor should be the one getting roasted. The instructor should be aware of the US LORAN system status.

The instructor should have required Snag to stay 500 feet below the ceiling when in the Echo. Staying legal with respect to ceilings is vitally important when near an airport 'cause some hapless IFR driver such as myself might drop outta the clouds just about anywhere in the airport vicinity. Sure, they can get away with scud running in the Golf but the flight description has them in controlled airspace on both ends and maybe for awhile in the middle (if I interpreted the flight correctly).
 
AuntPeggy said:
Snag, let me add that your enthusiasm and willingness to share with this community is delightful and refreshing. We all look forward to hearing from you about your progress. It brings back thos days when we couldn't figure out how to use the LORAN or the whatever and when we had to learn how to take off, land, and plan a trip.

Don't let our critical comments get you down. As I say, we love to see your posts. The reason you are getting jumped on this time is that we want you to be around to share your experiences and joy for a lot longer.

The three most important rules:
1. Know where you are.
2. Know where you are going.
3. Know what you will be doing next.
Click to expand...

:yes:

+1000000000000000

So So True...It's because we care about you and when you are let loose with that PPL the responsibility YOU hold as PIC (an awesome one at that) reflects the decisionmaking you learn in your training. If it were me, and I can only speak for myself, as soon as I saw we were scud running, with so little room for error either above or below (ie less than 500 ft vertical cloud clearance above, I don't care what airspace I am in) I would have told my instructor that we are going home.
 
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I'm not so sure about the scud-running (the route described is not entirely clear to me), but I will say there is still something very important about LORAN-C that at least the instructor should have known about.


Big fat hint: "February 8, 2010".

A classic example of why you should, at all times, be able to navigate by compass, clock and chart when flying VFR, regardless of what's in the panel.

Also a classic example of how important it can be to have all relevant information before you take off.
 
Dustin,

I think everyone is more upset with your instructor for missing the opportunity to teach a good lesson, some days you just have to bag it. Looking at a direct route between the two airports you flew right past a tower that tops out at 1049'. Wasn't too long ago we just had a scud running incident down there in Texas that had a plane clip the guy wire for a tower.

Won't be long now until your check ride. Have fun with the rest of your training and keep us up to date.
 
Dustin:

This is not flame war, nor is it personal or intended to put you down. One of the things you will deal with as a professional "anything" is the combination of self criticism and the critique of others with whom you communicate your experiences. No one, and I mean not a single person here, has been free of error or immune from critique. The basis for our responses is twofold: First, we are a very special community who share a very special responsibility and engage in an activity for which our personal limits and safety are the MOST important thing. Second, it's because we respect you, and each other, that we put out in this thread what we do..consider this sort of an online CRM process.

Think of this as if you were flying with another pilot (not necesarily your instructor) and were in the situation you described in the OP before you pulled it off. In those conditions, would you turn to the other pilot and ask for their input as to the nature of your flight, the information you have, information you need and what you can expect as the flight progressed? If your fellow pilot told you that he/she was not comfortable continuing on with deteriorating conditions, what would you have done?

Dustin, so many have been bitten by the famous 'decisionmaking chain' and you are just starting out. What we have responded with to you here is a very healthy thing. You cannot imagine how many of us have been in the same place as you were. We share our experiences good or bad, because we can, because we have this forum to do so with the very small fraternity of pilots and students who know what this is all about, and because you come here to share with us.

Nothing said here is to flame you or your instructor....

Bruce
 
Hard to believe that after all of the announcements about the Coast Guard shutting down the Loran system there are pilots who blame their equipment when no signal is received.

Bob Gardner
 
Sorry for reacting that way, Guys. Having a kinda sucky day and over reacted. I'll put the OP back up.
 
Snaggletooth said:
I don't know what was up with the LORAN. My CFI seemed to think it was broke, and that he was going to have a new one put in.
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Interesting to see the look on the avionics installers face when your CFI proposes this.

As far as the cloud clearance requirements go, remember that the distances are not there just to protect you from accidentally flying into a cloud. They are there as a buffer so that someone who emerges from the clouds on an IFR flight plan has time to see you and vice versa.
 
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
 
Snaggletooth said:
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
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You aren't the first person to stick the nose of an airplane into less than optimal conditions. Trust me.

FWIW - Cloud clearance can be hard to judge, but you really need to leave the room above just in case one of those nut cases who flies IFR is coming down through the overcast - obviously that is more likely when you are near an airport or at higher altitudes.
 
Snaggletooth said:
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
Click to expand...
Don't forget to ask him about the LORAN too...but please understand what you are asking.
 
Snaggletooth said:
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
Click to expand...

I still have a hard time remembering some of them. Actually it's pretty consistent except for that darn Class G with it's altitude & night/day specific clearances. :)

Keep posting your stuff. I enjoy it and I'm re-learning now what you are learning now as I get current again. Speaking of which, the weather looks good for flying tomorrow! Woo-hoo! It's more review of maneuvers for me tomorrow (slow flight, steep turns) and then back to the pattern for working on the landings. Last flight I did was a X-country to KMSN from KUGN which went well, with a surprise "Diamond 2AM go around, execute a 270 degree right turn and reestablish on base" right when I was over the numbers. Apparently my little Diamond was too slow on approach to sequence with the other aircraft landing on the intersecting runway.
 
Snaggletooth said:
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
Click to expand...
Bravo
 
Snaggletooth said:
I'll also be sure to ask about the LORAN as well.
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Friend- I suggest that you google "loran c". There's a couple of hints in some of the earlier posts in this thread too. After you get this information, I'd like to hear his response to your question.
 
Snaggletooth said:
After researching the Cloud Clearance thing, I see now we were not good to go as I had once thought. If I would have known, I would not have flown yesterday. I'll bring it up when I see my CFI next week.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time look things up. Good job. You're a better pilot today than you were yesterday (sounds a little corny but it is very true and it needs to be said).
 
Clark1961 said:
Thanks for taking the time look things up. Good job. You're a better pilot today than you were yesterday (sounds a little corny but it is very true and it needs to be said).
Click to expand...

Its not corny...its very true:yesnod:

BTW Dustin...did you figure out the relationship between February 8, 2010 and LORAN-C?

When you do, check in with us and go and inform your CFI..:D
 
Snaggletooth said:
The weather was quite scuzzy, but it was good enough to allow us to make a XC Flight to VCT. It was a fun flight.

I got to the airport early only to find my CFI already there. So we went in to his office and did some Dead Reckoning. My Flight Planing skills were quite rusty as I had not done a Flight Plan since October with my first CFI. After getting both Flight Plans together we headed out to the plane to Preflight. Once that was complete we taxied down to Runway Three One. After Take Off, we established Cruse and called the FSS to activate the Flight Plan. On our Flight Plan we had the Cruse Altitude at 1,500ft because the AWOS at BYY was reporting 1,600ft Overcast. We quickly found out that 1,500ft was just barely in the Clouds so we had to go down to 1,400ft to get below them. The Cloud Layer kept coming down as we flew farther and I stayed at 1,200ft for most of the Flight. As we flew on, my CFI turned on the LORAN to show me how to use it. After playing with it for a a little while it would not Display the info, so we just flew on using VOR and Pilotage to Navigate (Remember this part). I had some trouble staying on course, but found the Airport just fine.

This is where it got interesting, as VCT is Tower Controlled, and I had never talked to ATC before. I feel sorry for the poor guy sitting in the tower having to talk to me. I botched up the Calls pretty good till I got the hang of it. lol

About 5nm out from VCT I found out that I had forgot to finish up getting the headings for the return trip. So we got what we needed by navigating from VCT to the PSX VOR, then from the PSX VOR to BYY (This is where the LORAN would have been a big help lol). I made sure I was even more strict on keeping the needles on the VOR centered up, as well as knowing where I was on the Sectional at all times than normal. I stayed dead on course the whole time, and got to BYY with no problems.

Despite the Scuzzy Weather, and messing up the Flight Plan it was a great Flight, and I would not change it if I could. A few lessons Learned, that I'm glad I got with a CFI on board.

I logged 1.8 Hours, which brings me up to 35.3 Hours.
Click to expand...


You aren't the same Texas kid who posted the pics of the ribs "you built" are you ??

The whole story seems cooked up.:yesnod:
 
Snag, I will make another suggestion, look into subscribing to the Avweb newsletters or AOPA newsletters. There is a lot good current information about all kinds of aviation matters that are distributed via these newsletters.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Dustin,

Glad to see you come back. We're all happy you understood the message. It's made you a better pilot. Keep up the good work.
 
Snaggletooth, thanks for sharing your experience here. I'm at the same stage in training as you and after some bad experiences on That Other Forum I've gotten gun-shy about posting. Which is a shame, because you can learn a lot from talking to other pilots. I like that folks here are willing to teach without ego and I thank you for letting me learn from your experience.

The discussion here got me to look up FAR 91.155 for cloud separation requirements in Class G. We have so little usable Golf airspace in the Bay Area that those rules seem purely theoretical to me, and anyway I'm much more comfortable flying the 3/152 (or better) that's generally required. But it's good to know the actual rules.

I had my second cross-country recently, also in marginal weather, and I definitely did not enjoy the game of finding a spot between the ground and the clouds and around the giant towers. My CFI was testing me a bit and at some point we decided to simply turn around and find a different route. Was a good lesson in real-world flying.
 
Thanks for all the posts guys1

... and yes, I found the stuff about the LORAN being shutdown on February 8th.
 
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