Flight Following Question

[rkdF250]

I am a student pilot and will be going on my first cross country solo flight. I am suppose to use the Flight Following and the last time I used Flight Following with my instructor they put us into the Class B air space. I do not have my Class B endorsment and plan on asking the center to remain below the Class B airspace. I want to use the correct phrase for this and plan on stating on my initial call that I want to remain under Class B airspace which in my case is 4000ft. Does this sound like the correct terminology?

Thanks for whatever input you can give me.

 

[chucky]

When you make your request for flight following, specify that you are a student pilot. That will quite likely clue them in that they can't necessarily clear you in to the bravo airspace. If they do clear you in anyway, just say the magic word: 'unable'. Say something like 'unable to enter the bravo, I'm a student pilot, I'd like to go under at three thousand five hundred' or whatever your plan is. They should be understanding.

 

[Clark1961]

Just say the magic words: "Student Pilot"

If a controller offers the Bravo clearance, use the amended magic words: "Unable, student pilot, no bravo endorsement"

If the controller insists and you have a safe route outside the bravo, the magic words change to: "Cancel radar services"

I'm sure that other folks will have more constructive suggestions.

 

[Fearless Tower]

As long as you tell them that you are a student pilot in your initial callup, then it shouldn't be a problem. In most Class B areas, if they give you a clearance into the Bravo, it is because traffic is light and they are trying to be helpful. They aren't likely to try and 'force' you into that airspace.

Initial callup would be something along the lines of: "big city approach, Skyhawk 1234X, student pilot over podunk junction at 3500', requesting flight following to little x-country airport"

 

[rkdF250]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Looks like I can control it now. The cross solo is scheduled for tomorrow. I will update the thread with the outcome. Funny thing is flying and navigating is so easy that I can't wait to start my IFR training. I still need to cleanup my crosswind landings but I have been told experience is the best teacher for my landing issues. Texas weather you have to love it... LOL

 

[pilot_dude]

All others have provided great opinions and word tracks so I'll just wish you luck!

 

[JOhnH]

I am a student pilot and will be going on my first cross country solo flight. .

Will you be doing this by yourself?:smile:
Sorry. I couldn't resist. I read this on another thread recently. Good luck to you.

 

[roncachamp]

I am a student pilot and will be going on my first cross country solo flight. I am suppose to use the Flight Following and the last time I used Flight Following with my instructor they put us into the Class B air space. I do not have my Class B endorsment and plan on asking the center to remain below the Class B airspace. I want to use the correct phrase for this and plan on stating on my initial call that I want to remain under Class B airspace which in my case is 4000ft. Does this sound like the correct terminology?

How did they do that?

 

[roncachamp]

Just say the magic words: "Student Pilot"

If a controller offers the Bravo clearance, use the amended magic words: "Unable, student pilot, no bravo endorsement"

I don't think those words are all that magical. There's no mention of the restrictions on student pilots in Class B airspace in JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.

If the controller insists and you have a safe route outside the bravo, the magic words change to: "Cancel radar services"

Insist that he enter Class B airspace? Why would the controller do that?

 

[gismo]

How did they do that?

Remote control.

 

[PittsDriver]

I guess a question I have is why, if you routinely fly near class B airspace and apparently are far enough along to be ready for your solo XC, hasn't your instructor signed you off for Class B operations? It's not like it's a big deal?

 

[Clark1961]

I don't think those words are all that magical. There's no mention of the restrictions on student pilots in Class B airspace in JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.

I'm not familiar with JO 7110.65. I am familiar with the requirement for student pilots to have an instructor's endorsement before accepting a Bravo clearance. Perhaps JO 7110.65 is lacking in this particular error.


And just as an aside, I'm thinkin' most controllers will respond favorably to being notified they are working with a student pilot.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm not familiar with JO 7110.65. I am familiar with the requirement for student pilots to have an instructor's endorsement before accepting a Bravo clearance. Perhaps JO 7110.65 is lacking in this particular error.

What magic did you see in the words; "Student Pilot"?

And just as an aside, I'm thinkin' most controllers will respond favorably to being notified they are working with a student pilot.

So do I, but just saying "Student Pilot" does not necessarily tell the controller the pilot cannot operate in Class B airspace. It wouldn't even if the controller happened to be aware of the restrictions because those restrictions apply only to solo flight.

 

[Clark1961]

What magic did you see in the words; "Student Pilot"?



So do I, but just saying "Student Pilot" does not necessarily tell the controller the pilot cannot operate in Class B airspace. They wouldn't even if the controller happened to be aware of the restrictions because those restrictions apply to solo flight.

Did you read all of my initial post or did you just fly off the handle on the first line?

There was the line with unable and student pilot and no endorsement. Somehow I just imagine that would explain everything necessary to the otherwise ignorant controller.

Perhaps it wouldn't if said controller was pretending to be a lawyer and nitpicker like you. Maybe you should go play with Ron so you can both be happy nitpicking and lawyering up. Maybe not, it's just a suggestion and I'm sure you'll find something to be nitpicky and obtuse about.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think those words are all that magical. There's no mention of the restrictions on student pilots in Class B airspace in JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.

In over 40 years of flying, roncachamp is the first controller I've ever heard say that there's no "magic" to announcing that you're a Student Pilot, so as long as you stay away from Green Bay, you should be fine with that announcement.

 

[chucky]

I think he's just pointing out that controllers won't necessarily know that student pilots can't enter class B airspace unless they are specifically endorsed, which is germane to the discussion. I don't think he's implying that self-identifying as a student pilot isn't a good thing to do. I imagine this also means that controllers might not know that student pilots can't accept land-and-hold-short clearances?

But Ron's advice is good advice, for your first cross-country solo in Texas - don't end up in Green Bay. Have fun!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In over 40 years of flying, roncachamp is the first controller I've ever heard say that there's no "magic" to announcing that you're a Student Pilot, so as long as you stay away from Green Bay, you should be fine with that announcement.

We know you guys don't like each other - No reason to pick a fight. Read what Steven said again:

I don't think those words are all that magical. There's no mention of the restrictions on student pilots in Class B airspace in JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.

He's pointing out that just because the OP says "student pilot" doesn't mean that the controller will know that means he can't be in Bravo airspace. In fact, even if the controller is a pilot and knows that reg, there is no way for the controller to know whether the pilot has been endorsed for Class B or not short of a specific communication on that topic occurring.

I've also found that there are plenty of controllers that don't know the regs - If they're not in the 7110.65, they don't have to. I've had controllers "remind" me numerous times to "maintain a proper VFR altitude" when traveling westbound at 3,500 MSL (~2700-2800 AGL). In fact, I had to educate one of them on frequency after he told me that three times. "Center, the hemispheric rule doesn't apply below 3,000 AGL."

 

[Jack Spectre]

They wouldn't even if the controller happened to be aware of the restrictions because those restrictions apply to solo flight.

I agree in principle that it's better to tell the controller directly that you can't fly into Class Bravo. However, I never told the controller I was a student pilot when my CFI was on board. What would be the point?

 

[Fearless Tower]

"Center, the hemispheric rule doesn't apply below 3,000 AGL."

We don't usually have that problem out here.....with all the mountains, you're probably not going to get LA or Albuquerque Center on the radio below 3000' AGL.

 

[Doggtyred]

To the OP... before this thread descended into a nit-pick fest there was some good info.

When you pop up on frequency, call approach or center (or ground/clearance delivery if departing a towered field)... to request flight following.

They will want to know what type of plane you are, where you are at (bearing/distance from a navaid or airport), and where you are going.

They will give you a squawk code. After they identify you, they will want to verify your altitude to ensure it matches what they see on their radar

If you choose to identify yourself as a student pilot, thats fine. There is no requirement to do so, and the only thing it will do is tell them that you are new and they may need to be a little more patient with you.

As Steven pointed out, the controller manual doesn't address student pilots and their limitations, so they dont automatically know that you cant go into Class B. And there is no way for them to know if you are endorsed to do so or not, or if you are solo or not, just from a basic call-up on the radio. But.. that still should not be a problem.

Simple example:
You: Approach, Cessna 12345

Approach: Cessna 12345, go ahead (APP will have quickly realized he doesn't have a slip, and will probably be ready to write stuff down)

You: Cessna 12345, Cessna 172 3 miles south of po-dunk field, request flight following. (you've given call sign, type and location but not given too much if he wasn't ready to copy data).

APP: Cessna 345 squawk 1221 and ident, say destination.

You: Cessna 345, 1221, destination Smallville Municipal, 1400 feet and climbing. (altitude gets verified. if you dont say, they WILL ask)

APP: Cessna 345, Radar contact 3.5 miles south of po-dunk, proceed on course.

There.. thats it. You may get handed off one or more times, and when you report destination in sight they will generally cut you loose with "radar services terminated, squawk vfr, change to advisory frequency approved" or something like that.

If at any time they say "cleared into the Bravo/Class Bravo airspace" just say "unable Bravo, student pilot" and that will likely be the last you hear of it.

 

[chucky]

Simple example:
You: Approach, Cessna 12345

Approach: Cessna 12345, go ahead (APP will have quickly realized he doesn't have a slip, and will probably be ready to write stuff down)

It's a minor point, but I've heard from more than one source that it's helpful if you make it clear you're a VFR aircraft they don't know about - saves them that moment of looking for the strip. You can say "Approach, Cessna 12345, VFR request" or "Approach, Cessna 12345, request flight following" or something like that. Maybe roncachamp or someone else who knows what it's like on the other side of the mic can comment on whether or not it really matters.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's a minor point, but I've heard from more than one source that it's helpful if you make it clear you're a VFR aircraft they don't know about - saves them that moment of looking for the strip. You can say "Approach, Cessna 12345, VFR request" or "Approach, Cessna 12345, request flight following" or something like that. Maybe roncachamp or someone else who knows what it's like on the other side of the mic can comment on whether or not it really matters.

What Dave described is what we call in the military a double callup - it is generally frowned upon because it creates more frequency congestion than necessary. With civilian controllers, I have found it just depends - some seem very annoyed when VFR pilots use double callups and others will ask you to repeat everything if you try to give it to them in the initial callup.

 

[azure]

What Dave described is what we call in the military a double callup - it is generally frowned upon because it creates more frequency congestion than necessary. With civilian controllers, I have found it just depends - some seem very annoyed when VFR pilots use double callups and others will ask you to repeat everything if you try to give it to them in the initial callup.

It seems to depend on how busy they are. Around here, I usually assume they are busy and keep it short and sweet for the initial callup. They often even ask me to repeat my aircraft type, even though I always give it as part of my callsign (Cardinal XXXXX).

And about the other point in this thread: yes, the only reason to tell them you're a student pilot is so they'll be a little more patient with you. I rarely did, in fact the last time was on a solo XC where KTVC tower offered me a LAHSO clearance and I had to say "unable, student pilot". In that case, telling them beforehand would actually have saved some frequency time since there is no such thing as a LAHSO endorsement for student pilots. For Bravo operations, there is, so telling them you're a student pilot would not be enough to clue them in that you could not enter the Bravo. But you are under no obligation to accept a Bravo clearance just because they offer it to you, and unlike "student pilot", the word "unable" in this context is magical indeed.

 

[AuntPeggy]

What magic did you see in the words; "Student Pilot"?

Magic words indeed. Somehow they make all the communications slow down to audible and seem to add an encouraging smile to an otherwise official voice.

 

[bobmrg]

There is no such thing as "correct" phraseology unless you are a controller. There are plenty of suggested phrases for pilots, but none are required. Say what you need to say in plain English.

Having said that, you have received excellent advice in this thread.

Bob Gardner

 

[Palmpilot]

There is no such thing as "correct" phraseology unless you are a controller. There are plenty of suggested phrases for pilots, but none are required. Say what you need to say in plain English.

I was taught that if I can't think of how to say something, then just revert to plain English. Works every time.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What Dave described is what we call in the military a double callup - it is generally frowned upon because it creates more frequency congestion than necessary. With civilian controllers, I have found it just depends - some seem very annoyed when VFR pilots use double callups and others will ask you to repeat everything if you try to give it to them in the initial callup.

Don Brown, author of the old "Say Again" column on AvWeb, suggested that the "double callup" was a GOOD thing. If you call up and say "Huge Center, Bugsmasher 12345, request flight following" and they're really busy, they can just say "12345, unable" and you didn't bug 'em too much.

Now, if you do the entire callup at the beginning, a guy who's busy isn't even going to be able to answer you for a while, they need to catch up with all of the transmissions they should have been making while you were hogging the frequency on your callup.

Starting with the simple "request flight following", if they then give you a squawk code, you can read it back and add your destination and altitude and everybody's happy.

 

[Doggtyred]

What Dave described is what we call in the military a double callup - it is generally frowned upon because it creates more frequency congestion than necessary. With civilian controllers, I have found it just depends - some seem very annoyed when VFR pilots use double callups and others will ask you to repeat everything if you try to give it to them in the initial callup.

I've not heard the "frowned upon" but before.. but.. I'm not a military pilot.

I DO however, dont like repeating myself. I dont like taking up a big chunk of air-time only to find out the controller wasnt ready, and having to take up another big chunk of airtime repeating myself.

Short call up... I get a "stand by" or "go ahead"... (and I do admit, I usually put VFR on the tail end of my initial call up).. Followed by exactly the data the controller needs to hear, nothing more, nothing less. Acknowledge the squawk code and give an altitude, saving more air time.

Safe.. Orderly.. and relatively efficient (compared to having to repeat myself).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

They often even ask me to repeat my aircraft type, even though I always give it as part of my callsign (Cardinal XXXXX).

They're probably looking for the 4-character code to punch into the computer - C177 or C77R, as appropriate. The Cardinal is a great plane, but there aren't a whole lot of them and only the most die-hard enthusiast controllers are going to remember the 4-character code for them.

 

[azure]

They're probably looking for the 4-character code to punch into the computer - C177 or C77R, as appropriate. The Cardinal is a great plane, but there aren't a whole lot of them and only the most die-hard enthusiast controllers are going to remember the 4-character code for them.

That's what I've always assumed (and what I give them when asked), since it usually happens when I ask for a handoff to the next facility (around here there are some approach controls that drop you routinely at the edge of their airspace unless you give them a VERY timely heads-up that you'd like a handoff). I could be mistaken but I believe I've heard that they only need the type code if they will be coordinating a handoff. Yet 3 weeks ago Selfridge asked for my aircraft type a couple of minutes after callup, and then dropped me as I was leaving their airspace. So at this point I'm really not sure what to think.

 

[rkdF250]

I want to thank everyone for the advise and unfortunately my Cross Country Flight was called off today due to high crosswinds. On a brighter note I did get some great Crosswind "touch and go" practice in today. To answer the questions I do fly under Class B airspace all the time and feel very comfortable doing it. I just wanted to be prepared for whatever came my way regarding the radio and flight following during this cross country. After reading your responses and talking with the instructor I believe I have it handled. Thank you all for your great responses....

 

[Sac Arrow]

I normally do an initial callup with "Approach this is Arrow SA123 with request" whether it's to request flight following, or to file for an approach, request airspace transit, etc.... Then give them the whole thing when they are ready.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've not heard the "frowned upon" but before.. but.. I'm not a military pilot.

It is more of a military thing and not just a pilot matter - comes from having CO's screaming at folks whenever a double callup is used. End result, though is that as long as everyone is on the same page, the congestion on the frequency is considerably less. Key point though is that everyone needs to be on the same page.

In some places, providing most of the key info in the initial callup works the best. Try flying into a busy airport like San Diego Montgomery (MYF) on a Saturday VFR afternoon. A double callup is just going to aggravate everyone. The best service goes to the guy who can make the initial call clear and concise and not waste everyone's time. Other places, if you try to rattle off everything in the initial call, the controller is probably just going to tell you to repeat yourself.

I haven't seen it written anywhere, but what Chucky described - mentioning something like 'VFR request' on the initial callup seems to work best.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Now, if you do the entire callup at the beginning, a guy who's busy isn't even going to be able to answer you for a while, they need to catch up with all of the transmissions they should have been making while you were hogging the frequency on your callup.

Listening to the frequency a bit before you key the mike can give you a whole lot of insight on the traffic conditions that a particular controller is dealing with...plus it helps you refrain from stepping on folks.

Essentially what I am saying is that it just depends....but what does drive alot of folks nuts is the guy who calls up with just his call sign and nothing else. That is the kind of double callup that I was referring to.

 

[ejensen]

I've never used phrases like 'request', 'vfr', etc. I think they already know I want something and I'm not on their screen already. If it sounds real busy, I'll say who and where I am and what for their response. If it seems slack I'll give the whole enchilada. Seldom have to repeat myself.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's what I've always assumed (and what I give them when asked), since it usually happens when I ask for a handoff to the next facility (around here there are some approach controls that drop you routinely at the edge of their airspace unless you give them a VERY timely heads-up that you'd like a handoff). I could be mistaken but I believe I've heard that they only need the type code if they will be coordinating a handoff. Yet 3 weeks ago Selfridge asked for my aircraft type a couple of minutes after callup, and then dropped me as I was leaving their airspace. So at this point I'm really not sure what to think.

It may be that they were intending to hand you off and the next facility just couldn't take you - Or it could be that they're military and are sticklers for accuracy so they wanted to have you in their computer accurately, as opposed to a civilian controller who's going to keep you locally and might just put down "CARD" or something instead.

 

[denverpilot]

They're probably looking for the 4-character code to punch into the computer - C177 or C77R, as appropriate. The Cardinal is a great plane, but there aren't a whole lot of them and only the most die-hard enthusiast controllers are going to remember the 4-character code for them.

They also often need to know your equipment which isn't conveyed in my usual "Skylane" either. If quizzed I always revert to "Cessna One Eight Two Slant Alpha" which is what they're looking for to type into their strip. And most of the time without a D-side controller to help them these days, as Don Brown's articles also pointed out. The system isn't being staffed the way it was designed to run efficiently and effectively. Sad.

I usually listen for a bit and make a judgement call on the "double call up" or the standard phraseology which direct from the AIM is a full call up. Back in the days of all D-sides being manned and controllers only working one sector and frequency and less reliance on the "point-out" from the intercom phone line, if you were hearing dead radio air in the cockpit, the controller probably was too.

But nowadays they're often listening to two or three audio sources, typing up their own strips and tagging new targets with data blocks, and generally overloaded... So I tend to go with the double call up if they're busy.

Just imagine how good the service would be if it were outsourced to Lockheed-Martin.

With that said I'm pretty damn persistent unless told to go away though. Bureaucracies work on numbers, and using flight following as often as possible ties directly to number of operations, funding, and staffing in an organization like the FAA. And in densely traffic'ed airspace, the number of times I've had traffic called out to me that I never saw, is almost shocking.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way, funniest controller exchange ever was 10 PM, summer night, returning from Goodland, KS to KAPA in a 172RG...

"Cutlass 3 0 Romeo, when able, say aircraft gross weight."
"Standby, 3 0 Romeo"

As I wondered what the heck...

"Denver Center, Cutlass 3 0 Romeo was roughly X pounds departing Goodland... Or did you need the max gross?"

"Cutlass 3 0 Romeo, ahh never mind. I thought you might be a different type of Cutlass and we have a bet going here on who's controlled the most pounds of aircraft tonight. You're no help!"

"(laughing) Sorry I couldn't be more assistance. I'd have brought the big plane if I would have known! 3 0 Romeo."

"(laughter) 3 0 Romeo, Roger. Thanks. It's a close bet tonight."

 

[chucky]

That story made me chuckle. By the way, since a number of people have referenced Don Brown's column Say Again, I figured I'd put a link in here. I first came across his column thanks to someone else linking it in another discussion (I seem to recall it was on IFR flight plans) and I found them very informative. I'll pass the favor on here. He discusses 'double call-ups' in this column. Also give his ATC 101 a perusal if you're interested.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

That story made me chuckle. By the way, since a number of people have referenced Don Brown's column Say Again, I figured I'd put a link in here. I first came across his column thanks to someone else linking it in another discussion (I seem to recall it was on IFR flight plans) and I found them very informative. I'll pass the favor on here. He discusses 'double call-ups' in this column. Also give his ATC 101 a perusal if you're interested.

Thanks for the links. I looked at a couple and plan to read a bunch. For me, flying the airplane is easy. This radio stuff on the other hand...