Flight Following and Restricted Areas

[Gary]

Does Center coordinate traffic with the appropriate controller for a restricted area? Assume I’m flying along VFR with Flight Following from Center. As I approach a restricted area, will Center clear me through the restricted area without having to contact the specific controller of that restricted area? Do I need to consider if it is hot or not? An example would be flying southbound from Dover DE to Norfolk VA at 6500’ MSL, as I approach Restricted Area R-4006 (Patuxent), will Washington Center routinely clear me through without having to contact Patuxent separately? I see on the Special Use Airspace chart on the Washington Sectional, that Washington Center is the controlling agency so it would seem logical that they would. Usually I would duck under the Restricted Area or contact Patuxent directly.

 

[BruceAir]

Center should handle all coordination, but if you're in doubt, don't hesitate to ask.

For more information, you can refer to Air Traffic Control, the official handbook for air traffic controllers, available with many other references on the Web at http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/.

Paragraphs 2-1-14 and 5-4-10 seem to apply.

 

[maximus]

What about flight following thru class D airspace? My experince is it varies by the LOA. Anyway to find out if ARTCC or TRACON controler has such an agreement?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If VFR with flight following, I'd sure ask before entering an R or P area. (Even when IFR, I ask unless given specific clearance). In the end, the PIC has responsibility. If ATC didn't assist you, they many get some of the blame, but you may also have issues if no clearance was given. If you hear them state the R or P area is cold or closed when talking to others, that could help. I've been cleared through several on weekends and holidays.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[BruceAir]

The controllers should advise you if a MOA, restricted area, etc. is hot. But if they don't volunteer the information and you want to fly into one, I strongly advise confirming status with them ahead of time.

As for transitions through Class D, approach control airspace, etc., again, they should coordinate with the appropriate facility. If they can't, they'll probably terminate flight following and turn you loose. But if you have questions, ask.

I was recently at a meeting at the Seattle TRACON and brought up the issue of Letters of Agreement between various ATC facilities. They seem to be Top Secret and to my knowledge, aren't published anywhere in the A/FD, AIM, etc.

The good news (which may apply only to Seattle) is that one of the facility folks said they are planning to publish information about the LOAs that affect the TRACON and Class D airspace on future Terminal Area Charts, much as they have already printed details of the VFR transition across KSEA (and other airports) on the reverse side of many TACs.

But they key point is that when you're in contact with ATC and you have any question about a clearance, upcoming airspace, etc., just ask--far enough in advance to allow time for an answer and to initiate Plan B if necessary.

 

[SCCutler]

My first experience w/ P49 (Crawford TX, Pres. Bush's ranch), I was on FF but no flight plan, flying from Dallas to Austin; Waco Approach told me I could proceed "direct Austin" if I liked. Since the NOTAM says we're supposed to not only be squawking and talking, but also on an active flight plan, I demurred. The controller told me, "you're Ok if you're with me, I'd be the one to tag you if you weren't." Still took the extra five minutes or so and stayed clear (it was no big deal, and I was muy nervous).

===

Funny thing: This last Friday, I was flying ADS to T82 (Fredericksburg), this time 8,000 on an IFR clearance, and they took me right between Waco Regional and TSTC (CNW, the airport to which AF1 goes when Pres Bush is in residence). App gave a guy on VFR FF a vector "..to remain clear of restricted airspace...," to which this yay-hoo quips, "what, is Georgie boy gonna be playin' around here?" What a yutz. Waco replied (drily) "Just stay on frequency and listen."

About ten seconds later, "Waco Approach, Air Force One, seven thousand."

If I'd been five minutes later (or if the haze had not been so bad) I am sure I could have watched that marvelous bird land from my lofty perch.

Meanwhile, that other guy (at best) looks foolish- no one who got any briefing at all would not have known about P49 going expanded on Friday. In addition, I know that the USAF maintains AWACS surveillance when the President is in residence; I'd not be too terribly surprised if that fellow got a courtesy visit- just to chat- from a couple of folks in well-tailored blue blazers.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Gary,

When in doubt, always, always, ask. I came within a gnats-rear of a serious TFR bust last year, and it was only by asking questions that I prevented it.

It was only a day or so after Reagan died, and I was flying from Concord, CA to Long Beach. About a 3 hour flight in a pokey 172. I got an FSS briefing and filed a VFR flight plan about 15 minutes before wheels-off. Opened the flight plan about 4 minutes after takeoff. Flew along blissfully, with flight following 80% of the time.

I finally get close to LA, about 10 miles north of Van Nuys, and tell the controller I plan to take the special flight rules area over LAX. Controller responds "unable SFRA, there's a TFR". Me: (Thinking what the ___?, what TFR?, did something happen at LAX??) "Huh??....uhhh, What TFR? how about the Shoreline route?" (a Class-B clearance is required for that transition). Controller: "Standby". About a minute later, the controller comes back: "Next controller will have your clearance". Me: "Negative information on the TFR, please advise" (feeling like a boob - how could I miss this?).

Controller advises me there's a 3-nm radius to 5K TFR around Santa Monica - which is the northern entrance to the SFRA. (The funeral home for Reagan was in Santa Monica, I found out once I got home). Next controller gives me the route clearance, but it will take me straight into the TFR. I asked the controller to confirm that I'm ok to be in the TFR (hey, I haven't read the text of it!), and he says yes, so long as I'm squaking and talking.

Explanation: they issued the TFR about 10 minutes after my FSS briefing, and it went into effect about 45 minutes into my flight. In an ideal world, the briefer I spoke with when I activated the flight plan could have advised me, but only if he was familiar with traffic routes in LA. In reality, I could have conducted the whole flight along basically the same route without talking to a controller except for the takeoff and landing at Class D airports. That's right, on a normal day I could have flown right through the TFR area. If the controllers had refused flight-following and not told me about the TFR, I would absolutely have busted the TFR.

Sorry for the long story, but hope there may be a lesson to be learned by others, and this seemed like a good topic to post it in.

Jeff

 

[SCCutler]

...Sorry for the long story, but hope there may be a lesson to be learned by others, and this seemed like a good topic to post it in.

Jeff

Man, feel free to share that kind of story anytime! You live, we learn.

By the way, I lived in Fullerton for several years (prepilot days), loved it, nice town. I was about three miles east of 24, always watched the parade of planes on a nice day with envy. Hope it's still a nice place to be...

 

[bbchien]

In Chicago approach airspace, they are supposed to co-ordinate with other towers in whose airspace you will cross. But they don't. You need two coms to do it yourself. That's yet another reason why I don't go to Chicago except IFR. C90 (Elgin IL) is the bain of my existence.

 

[gismo]

Sorry for the long story, but hope there may be a lesson to be learned by others, and this seemed like a good topic to post it in.

The lesson (for the TSA) ought to be that TFR's should never be issued without at least 8 hours prior notice. The folks over there just don't understand GA nor do they seem to care.

WRT FF and SUA, I believe controllers are required to either coordinate/grant your passage, turn you away, or turn you loose. That last choice is the worst especially if they leave you a short distance from a large piece of special airspace, and for that reason alone I generally pay attention to any SUA in my path and confirm in advance. For a TFR issued after my last briefing or while in flight, you just have to be lucky I guess.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Center should handle all coordination, but if you're in doubt, don't hesitate to ask.

VFR flight following does not coordinate restricted area transits. If the area is cold there is no coordination required. If the area is hot you are expected to remain clear.

Ed Guthrie

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Gary,

When in doubt, always, always, ask. I came within a gnats-rear of a serious TFR bust last year, and it was only by asking questions that I prevented it.
===================================================

Good for you Jack!!
I almost never go out of the local area without either filing IFR or FF. Coming back from San Diego to Addison (Texas) couple years ago they came out with the nuclear power plant TFR while I was in the air. There is a plant on the STARS into Addison; I was asked to circumnavigate just before passing over.

Some of the MFDs are getting real time TFRs. Until this all works and we all have 'em, not much choice but to be talkin and squakin.

Dave

 

[Ed Guthrie]

The controllers should advise you if a MOA, restricted area, etc. is hot.

ATC is responsible for providing special use airspace separation to nonparticipating aircraft only if ATC has separation responsibility for that aircraft. For VFR aircraft ATC has separation reasonability in Class B & C airspace and TRSA airspace only. IOW, outside Class B & C airspace and outside TRSA airspace ATC has no obligation to alert us of special use airspace.

Ed Guthrie

 

[wsuffa]

Sorry for the long story, but hope there may be a lesson to be learned by others, and this seemed like a good topic to post it in.

Jeff

And, Jeff, that's why I file IFR on almost all of my flights these days. The DE yesterday said the same thing. He skipped a bunch of the ground material he normally covers (about the Waco TFR & other similar things) when I talked about making regular flights up to/in the Washington ADIZ.

You're taking a chance when you go VFR w/o flight following over long distances in today's environment. And that's no guarantee since they can drop you from FF anytime.

 

[wsuffa]

The lesson (for the TSA) ought to be that TFR's should never be issued without at least 8 hours prior notice. The folks over there just don't understand GA nor do they seem to care.

WRT FF and SUA, I believe controllers are required to either coordinate/grant your passage, turn you away, or turn you loose. That last choice is the worst especially if they leave you a short distance from a large piece of special airspace, and for that reason alone I generally pay attention to any SUA in my path and confirm in advance. For a TFR issued after my last briefing or while in flight, you just have to be lucky I guess.

Lance, confirming in advance means nothing. I was IFR direct to McAllen one day and cleared through Kingsville MOA. The Navy decided to make it hot while I was in there (oh, joy). ATC restricted the Navy guys to altitudes above me, then gave them the entire MOA the minute I was out. That kind of stuff happens down here all the time... I was vectored out of one of the other MOAs when they decided to make it hot.

 

[Gary]

Ed:

Thanks for the easiest to understand answer! However, if Center DOES NOT coordinate transit, why are they listed as the "Controlling Agency" on the Sectional chart under Special Use Airspace? So.. if I understand correctly, as I am tooling along (getting Flight Following from Washington Center) I need to go off frequency and contact the local controller (Patuxent, in my example) of the restricted area to get approval for transit or determine if it is active.

Gary

 

[maximus]

Ed:

Thanks for the easiest to understand answer! However, if Center DOES NOT coordinate transit, why are they listed as the "Controlling Agency" on the Sectional chart under Special Use Airspace? So.. if I understand correctly, as I am tooling along (getting Flight Following from Washington Center) I need to go off frequency and contact the local controller (Patuxent, in my example) of the restricted area to get approval for transit or determine if it is active.

Gary

Just ask the controller. Most controllers will coordinate with towers example Champaign (class c) and Decatur Illinois (class d). The only time I had a complaint was with Chicago center and an airport in Wisconsin. The guy ask if i was in class D and I said I was. He told me to contact the tower. When I got on Tower they where not happy. It would have been nice if ARTCC would have given me a handoff or a heads up. Well lesson learned as
Dr. Chien said "I don't go into Chicago without being IFR." I can defiantly see why

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Ed:

Thanks for the easiest to understand answer! However, if Center DOES NOT coordinate transit, why are they listed as the "Controlling Agency" on the Sectional chart under Special Use Airspace?

Center is indeed the controlling agency and they do coordinate transit, but they are only responsible for non-participating aircraft which are aircraft not using the SUA and for whom ATC has separation responsibility, which in Class E airspace generally equates to IFR aircraft only. IOW, as a VFR aircraft receiving flight following we are not part of the game. We must ask if the area is hot (active). If the area is not hot we may transit if we choose.

So.. if I understand correctly, as I am tooling along (getting Flight Following from Washington Center) I need to go off frequency and contact the local controller (Patuxent, in my example) of the restricted area to get approval for transit or determine if it is active.

If Washington Center is listed as the controlling agency then the controller of that sector will know whether or not the area is hot, so you should be able to ask the controller rather than switch to PXT approach frequency.

Ed Guthrie

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Ed is certainly correct. Some folks think when VFR with flight following, they're covered. The controllers do try and usually will keep you out of trouble; however, the PIC has final responsibility. The controllers have other things that come first and have no obligation as Ed said.

To stay clear of class D is fairly easy if you stay 5 or 6,000 AGL. Class B and C should be easy to pick out on VFR charts. MOAs are on the charts; as are the other R, P and A area. So, it's primarliy TFRs that concern me on long cross country flights. If flight following, you are in communications with the controller for that sector. If you listen well, it gives great situational awareness. Also, if you need to go IFR, you are already in contact and have a squawk code.

It's better than just listening to the CD player and not having any idea what's going on outside, but the controller still does not have seperation responsibility. He/she is only assisting when able.

Even IFR you're not completely seperated by the controller unless you're in Class A airspace. VFR traffic can still ruin your day if you're IFR.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[poadeleted20]

ATC is responsible for providing special use airspace separation to nonparticipating aircraft only if ATC has separation responsibility for that aircraft. For VFR aircraft ATC has separation reasonability in Class B & C airspace and TRSA airspace only. IOW, outside Class B & C airspace and outside TRSA airspace ATC has no obligation to alert us of special use airspace

While this is technically correct, if ATC is working VFR traffic, they always do warn the traffic of hot R-areas in their path, and I've heard some very strongly-worded conversations with VFR pilots who didn't understand what ATC is telling them about staying out. I used to hear this a lot with VFR aircraft departing Martin State Airport in Middle River MD heading northeast to NJ or NY -- straight into R-4001, where the Army tests, among other things, anti-aircraft weapons. Pax Approach is also very good about warning folks when R-4006 is hot.

Not saying you can rely on such warnings, but I've never seen anyone go near a hot R-area while getting VFR radar service without being warned.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

While this is technically correct, if ATC is working VFR traffic, they always do warn the traffic of hot R-areas in their path, and I've heard some very strongly-worded conversations with VFR pilots who didn't understand what ATC is telling them about staying out.

Remember what your English teacher said about absolutes? Never say "always", especially in this case. It isn't ATC's job, and if the workload doesn't permit the extra attention they may not even notice.

I used to hear this a lot with VFR aircraft departing Martin State Airport in Middle River MD heading northeast to NJ or NY -- straight into R-4001, where the Army tests, among other things, anti-aircraft weapons. Pax Approach is also very good about warning folks when R-4006 is hot.

No exaggeration, I have heard the following warning issued more than once:

"Bugsmasher 1234, are you familiar with Restricted Area 4567A?" No (Yes), well you are now 2 miles inside that area. The area is hot. Turn left(right) heading xxx, I have phone number for you to call when you get on the ground, advise when ready to copy."

Not saying you can rely on such warnings,

I'll be more emphatic--never rely on such warnings.

but I've never seen anyone go near a hot R-area while getting VFR radar service without being warned.

I have. Caveat aviator.

Ed Guthrie

 

[gismo]

Lance, confirming in advance means nothing. I was IFR direct to McAllen one day and cleared through Kingsville MOA. The Navy decided to make it hot while I was in there (oh, joy). ATC restricted the Navy guys to altitudes above me, then gave them the entire MOA the minute I was out. That kind of stuff happens down here all the time... I was vectored out of one of the other MOAs when they decided to make it hot.

Yes, restricted areas and MOA's can go hot with little warning and even ATC cannot always know in advance when it's going to happen during posted active hours for the SUA. My point was that when ATC does know an area is hot, it's not uncommon to get re-routed around it at the last minute making for a big detour when a small deviation from a greater distance would have been sufficient. Asking your controller to check ahead often (but not always) prevents this.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

We're beating this to death, but, I have had center vector me right toward a restricted area that was hot. After a bit, I was finally able to ask about two miles out and the controller immediately changed my heading as said thanks for reminding him.

They're human folks; they're busy. Do all you can to help them out; they've helped me several times. If you bust the space, even if they were supposed to tell you, it won't be fun!! I guarantee.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS