Flat Spin

akpilot907

akpilot907

Pre-takeoff checklist
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citabriav8tr
After watching this video;

https://www.skilledpilots.com/video-private-pilot-unintentionally-gets-his-aircraft-into-a-flat-spin-and-loses-2800-feet-in-40-seconds/

It got me wondering... I've never practiced flat spins nor have I read into them. What are the recovery steps? Are the recovery steps same as a regular spin?
-Power to Idle
-Ailerons Neutral
-Opposite Rudder
-Elevator Back
-Apply Throttle as required

I'm thinking if you were in a flat spin, I would try adding power and push the elevator forward, maybe try opposite rudder to stop the turn... Thoughts?
 
Generally if your in a spin with left rotation, adding power will pitch the nose up and flatten the spin. In a spin with right rotation, adding power will pitch the nose down and accelerate the rotation. It can be impossible to recover from a flat spin with added power, so that's one of the reasons why your typically tough to idle power. If the spin is flat and slow it may require you a few seconds of full rudder deflection to stop the rotation. It's harder to predict when exactly you will recover from a slow spin.

All these spin recovery procedures are for a generic airplane. Make sure to read upon the specific spin recovery procedures for your airplane, it can be different. For example if you have a small rudder a conventional tail if you push the stick forward too early the elevators may block the airflow over the rudder and the rudder will become useless, then the rotation won't stop until you neutralize the elevator. Then swept wing aircraft will have a different spin recovery procedure as well. So make sure to find out the details about your specific aircraft.
 
What makes that spin flat, it looked like the nose was well down??

The video is labeled "inadvertent", what was inadvertent about that, it looked like he wanted to spin the airplane?

Why did he not at least try once to restart the engine??

Question, questions, LOL
 
MachFly said:
Perhaps he was too busy. Fly the airplane first...
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Yes, that one was the least of my questions. He only had 0:30 from the time he recovered til landing. Still, I was surprised to not see the prop move once.
 
alfadog said:
The video is labeled "inadvertent", what was inadvertent about that, it looked like he wanted to spin the airplane?

Why did he not at least try once to restart the engine??
Click to expand...

Yes he spun the airplane intentionally, but accidentally discovered a spin quirk associated with this particular airplane that can cause a developed spin to go flat. The flat spin eventually caused the fuel pickup to unport, and the engine quit. He likely had no electrical system, so could not restart. He stumbled upon the best way to actively recover from a flat spin - inspin aileron. I give him credit for not giving up.

In aerobatic airplanes, a flat spin is typically a deliberate maneuver aided by the gyroscopic reaction of the propellor which helps raise the nose when power is added. In most aerobatic airplanes, a flat spin will recover more quickly with power than without. This technique should not be confused with emergency spin recovery. A post in the previous link posted above elaborates on that.

The other scenario is when an airplane goes flat on its own without the help of power. This is not a typical characteristic of airplanes that are commonly spun, and I would not care to experience this. Unless an airplane has been fully spin tested, flat spin recovery characteristics may be unknown.

Non-aerobatic pilots don't really need worry about flat spins. For the aerobatic pilot, there's nothing special about them. It's just another spin mode. Don't mess around with spins unless you've had spin training and know your airplane's spin characteristics. If you're flying an airplane with no electrical system, I would strongly recommend doing them over an area where an emergency landing can safely be made.
 
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I agree that it's probably not a big thing if your in an aerobatic airplane like a Pitts and your up to speed. Years ago a pilot who had recently bought a pits put it into one near the airport at , he said, about 4000 feet. He recovered at 500 feet and had two black eyes, looked like a raccoon, but he was learning then. Personally I've spun a champ , 7bcm with big tail, and a decathlon, but never flat spun one. Not that good. Either will pop out of a " regular" spin easily. In something like a mooney, I'm not at all sure you would recover except by parachute. Anyone ever flat spun a mooney, commanche?
 
There are a couple of reasons we don't teach pilots flat spin recovery. First, you can't get into a flat spin without going through a spin entry, incipient spin, and fully developed "regular" spin first (bizarre situations like the F-111's yaw divergence mode excepted), and that takes a lot of time either doing nothing or holding pro-spin controls to accomplish in a light plane. So, if we can teach you to prevent the spin, or terminate the event in the incipient phase first, you'll never get into a flat spin. Second, there aren't a lot of planes in which intentional flat spins are both approved and safely possible, so there aren't a lot of opportunities to do such training. Third, even if you have an Extra 300 or the like available, how you get out of a flat spin in that plane may be very different in terms of control feel and inputs than in a Beech Bonanza, so the training may not have a whole lot of value anyway.

So, all things considered, unless you're planning on some serious acro flying (in which case this should be part of your acro training), this isn't worth worrying about for someone doing "normal" flying in light planes.
 
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I would absolutely love to try a flat spin in something like a Bonanza, I would however want a spin chute first.
 
MachFly said:
I would absolutely love to try a flat spin in something like a Bonanza, I would however want a spin chute first.
Click to expand...


Flight testing an STC for tip tanks on a Bo. Skip to 11:40 if you do not want to watch the whole thing.
 
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alfadog said:

Flight testing an STC for tip tanks on a Bo. Skip to 11:40 if you do not want to watch the whole thing.
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I've seen that video a while back, completely forgot about it.

You guys know if he had a spin chute?
 
MachFly said:
I've seen that video a while back, completely forgot about it.

You guys know if he had a spin chute?
Click to expand...

I looked up the NTSB report a while back. IIRC, no chute.

edit: I actually posted this a while back. No mention of a chute...

NTSB Identification: LAX88DUM03.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 36505.
Accident occurred Thursday, February 25, 1988 in RAMONA, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 07/10/1989
Aircraft: BEECH A36, registration: N23536
Injuries: 1 Minor.
DURING A TEST FLIGHT FOR CERTIFICATION OF WING TIP TANKS, WHILE PERFORMING SPINS, THE AIRCRAFT ENTERED A FLAT SPIN. THE PILOT WAS UNABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL AND EXITED THE AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTED TO SAFETY. THE AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH THE TERRAIN SHORTLY THEREAFTER. THERE WERE NO MECHANICAL FAILURES OR MALFUNCTIONS REPORTED AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

STALL/SPIN..INTENTIONAL..PILOT IN COMMAND

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

REMEDIAL ACTION..INADEQUATE

Contributing Factors

MAINTENANCE,MODIFICATION..INTENTIONAL..COMPANY/OPERATOR MANAGEMENT
 
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alfadog said:



Flight testing an STC for tip tanks on a Bo. Skip to 11:40 if you do not want to watch the whole thing.
Click to expand...


That's an intense video. However it appears camera was the same kind used to shoot UFO sighting videos ;-)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A few years ago I read a story from a pilot that was in what he thought was an unrecoverable flat spin. As a "last ditch" effort he decided to apply full aileron in direction of the spin. Thus increasing lift and drag on the advancing wing and decreasing it on the retreating wing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tmpendergrass said:
A few years ago I read a story from a pilot that was in what he thought was an unrecoverable flat spin. As a "last ditch" effort he decided to apply full aileron in direction of the spin. Thus increasing lift and drag on the advancing wing and decreasing it on the retreating wing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Brownlee tried in-spin aileron before he bailed. You can make it out in the dials.
 
alfadog said:
I looked up the NTSB report a while back. IIRC, no chute.

edit: I actually posted this a while back. No mention of a chute...

NTSB Identification: LAX88DUM03.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 36505.
Accident occurred Thursday, February 25, 1988 in RAMONA, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 07/10/1989
Aircraft: BEECH A36, registration: N23536
Injuries: 1 Minor.
DURING A TEST FLIGHT FOR CERTIFICATION OF WING TIP TANKS, WHILE PERFORMING SPINS, THE AIRCRAFT ENTERED A FLAT SPIN. THE PILOT WAS UNABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL AND EXITED THE AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTED TO SAFETY. THE AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH THE TERRAIN SHORTLY THEREAFTER. THERE WERE NO MECHANICAL FAILURES OR MALFUNCTIONS REPORTED AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

STALL/SPIN..INTENTIONAL..PILOT IN COMMAND

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

REMEDIAL ACTION..INADEQUATE

Contributing Factors

MAINTENANCE,MODIFICATION..INTENTIONAL..COMPANY/OPERATOR MANAGEMENT
Click to expand...

That explains why he didn't try using it.
 
So all in all... If your not in an aerobatic type acft (ie: extra, pitts) a flat spin is nearly impossible to recover from? Once it's spinning like a bad out of hell!
 
akpilot907 said:
So all in all... If your not in an aerobatic type acft (ie: extra, pitts) a flat spin is nearly impossible to recover from? Once it's spinning like a bad out of hell!
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I think it can be done, you just need sufficient altitude. However in some aircraft it can actually be impossible to recover. Hard to say unless specifically tested.
 
MachFly said:
I think it can be done, you just need sufficient altitude. However in some aircraft it can actually be impossible to recover. Hard to say unless specifically tested.
Click to expand...

Tested, huh? Well I don't want to be "THAT GUY"... :hairraise:
 
akpilot907 said:
Tested, huh? Well I don't want to be "THAT GUY"... :hairraise:
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Chances are there was some extensive testing done when it was first certified. Just need to find that info, but that may be hard.

You can try contacting the manufacturer, they'll probably have some info for you. Keep on mind though, they will not want to give you any direct answers because they don't want to be legally liable.
 
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A normal spin is a stall maneuver and the nose is well down. Nothing but Kansas to be seen filling the wind screen.
If you are in a flat spin you are in trouble.
About the only thing that will get you out of a flat spin is moving the CG forward. You and the passengers will unbuckle and crowd forward as far as you can get.
 
Unless there was editing he waited only seconds after the initial rotation before unbuckling and getting out of there.
I assume he killed the engine and shut off the fuel to reduce fire.
Seems negligent that they did not have a moving weight he could crank forward to get the nose down. I would have insisted on that and a drogue shoot on the tail with a cut away. Maybe that's why they never asked me to fly it. :)
 
Dr. O said:
Unless there was editing he waited only seconds after the initial rotation before unbuckling and getting out of there.
I assume he killed the engine and shut off the fuel to reduce fire.
Seems negligent that they did not have a moving weight he could crank forward to get the nose down. I would have insisted on that and a drogue shoot on the tail with a cut away. Maybe that's why they never asked me to fly it. :)
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I thought we decided months ago that the pilots mustache disrupted the airflow across the rudder? Perhaps that was another board?
 
Dr. O said:
Unless there was editing he waited only seconds after the initial rotation before unbuckling and getting out of there.
Click to expand...

Really? How many turns should he have let it go before giving up?
 
Dr. O said:
If you are in a flat spin you are in trouble.
Click to expand...

Dr. O said:
Unless there was editing he waited only seconds after the initial rotation before unbuckling and getting out of there.
Click to expand...

No comment on anything you state other than did you actually remember your comment #1 before making comment #2?
 
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