Flaperons or Flaps?

dell30rb

Final Approach
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May 18, 2011
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Raleigh NC
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Ren
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KTTA, NC81
I decided to buy a little R/C motorglider.

Here's a pic. Notice the flaps.

DSC_4697.jpg


Flaps are optional on this kit. In fact, the standard config is with full length ailerons. To get flaps, you cut the aileron, and install two extra servos to control the flaps.

The radio I have is computerized, and could be set so that with the flip of a switch I can droop the ailerons.

For making short field landings over obstacles, which is better? My yard is just big enough that I think I could fly the glider out of it once I get some practice.
 
I set up my Giant scale cub with flapperons so that it would actually land at idle power. Worked well.
 
I set up my Giant scale cub with flapperons so that it would actually land at idle power. Worked well.

Cool.

I'm thinking now that since this is a glider, it will not really want to come down. Flaperons might give it a bit too much lift and what I really need is some flaps that go to 40 degrees, and would give me a lot more drag with less lift.
 
on most full size flapped gliders the flaps/ailerons are interconnected. not exactly flaperon but pretty close.
 
Not sure about R/C but wouldn't spoilers work better?
 
Not sure about R/C but wouldn't spoilers work better?

for full scale most gliders (except standard class) will have flaps and spoilers. in the early days of the 15 meter class there were some who championed flaps only (particularly Dick Schreder in the US) gliders. the nice thing there is you don't have the spoiler disturbing airflow on the wing. The europeans did not embrace the full flap landing approach, even though it is awesome. spoiler increase your stall speed while flaps reduce it and at 80 or 90 degree deflections produce outstandingly steep approach angles.
 
for full scale most gliders (except standard class) will have flaps and spoilers. in the early days of the 15 meter class there were some who championed flaps only (particularly Dick Schreder in the US) gliders. the nice thing there is you don't have the spoiler disturbing airflow on the wing. The europeans did not embrace the full flap landing approach, even though it is awesome. spoiler increase your stall speed while flaps reduce it and at 80 or 90 degree deflections produce outstandingly steep approach angles.

Haha

So what you're saying is that I should rig the flaps to be super steep and rig up flaperons too :)
 
i wish i could find some pictures. i have a modified Briegleb BG-12 which features flaps that are about half the span and deflect a long ways. I think they are currently limited to about 60 or 70 degrees. Originally they went to 90. With full deflection I'm not strong enough to hold them there if the speed is over 60 mph. The descent rate is awesome, I've measured 4 or 5:1 glides with full flaps, and the nose is down quite a ways. That is the trouble most people have with flap only approaches, you have to put the nose down with the flaps out.
 
well some glider pilots have trouble figuring that out when all they've flown is spoilered gliders where you hold a more or less level pitch attitude in the pattern.

the steep nose down angle, incredible visibility, and outstanding sink rate with a full flap glider approach can be a bit disconcerting for a first timer. with a little practice though it is flat out FUN.
 
well some glider pilots have trouble figuring that out when all they've flown is spoilered gliders where you hold a more or less level pitch attitude in the pattern.

the steep nose down angle, incredible visibility, and outstanding sink rate with a full flap glider approach can be a bit disconcerting for a first timer. with a little practice though it is flat out FUN.
My first owned aircraft was the Finnish PIK20b - a flaps-only aircraft. For cruising, the flaps are interconnected with the ailerons from full reflex thru the first two notches of positive flaps. High speed cruise is reflex, thermal climb with 2 notches. All quite nice.

On landing there were several things to be considered. The flaps were operated by a crank, which I guess removes the strength issue. The full 90 degree flap deployment required 3 or 4 revolutions. More on that later.

In a normal landing pattern, the best procedure was to treat flaps as a one way control. Once you put them on, plan on not taking them off since you will lose lift along with drag and there's no engine to provide some remedial power. So the landing pattern was best flown with the careful and progressive application of the flaps. You had to slow it down below best glide on final with flaps hanging out because pitching up to slow down as you do in the flare will having you floating forever. But you never wanted to get too low and slow with the flaps hanging out because there was little recourse except to land short unlike with spoilers where slamming them shut immediately gives you full glider performance (35:1 or or better).

The best landing technique, especially in off field situations where spot landings are required, was to carry a little extra energy down to the flare so you didn't come short. However, it was practically impossible to get it out of the resulting float in a predictable way. Ground effect with the flaps down was pretty amazing... you would be nose low and could float for half a mile while the speed slowly bled off before getting on the ground. So once in the flare, the technique was to wind off the flaps. The lift immediately dumped and you had to pitch up as you wound off the flaps or else you would slam it on. Oh, the crank... imagine the old game of patting your head while rubbing your tummy. You can do it but it requires some practice and concentration. My first season of landings entertained the airport as I oscillated into an arrival. Winding flaps while smoothly pitching up took some practice. Once mastered, I could drop it on a dime.

This is the plane I learned cross country racing in. My first off field landing was missed landing approach where I got low and slow on a 20+ knot wind day. Suddenly while turning base I realized that I lacked the energy to get to the runway. I landed in a pasture short of the airport and the interstate that bordered it (!!)

With my virginity burst, I proceeded to fly the PIK into many off field landings. Because you could get so slow with the flaps and drop it on a dime with enough technique, I had a blast for a few years.

Then I got fooled on another 20+ knot ridge day when I tried to put it in a mall parking lot. I knew abreast of the touchdown spot with half flaps down, that there was no way to get there from here. The PIK died that day.

I should add that the mixology on the PIK was pretty sophisticated. Once past the climb settings, the ailerons would go up as the flaps would go down.

Spoilers and flaps is the ideal setup on full size gliders. Spoilers only on standard class.

I was flying RC gliders many decades ago before servos and radios became light enough to justify adding flaps or spoilers to a mid-size glider. I remember the designer/flyer of one particular contest winning design (Mark Smith's Windfree) simply flipped it upside down to get a higher rate of descent, then rolled it level for the touch down - rudder only as I recall. Way beyond my skill set at the time.
 
Yea I've had a good look at the mixer on the Zuni and mosquito. I have no idea how they work. Mosquito also has the very cool flap/airbrake combo that became standard on the ventus.
 
I've been having a ball with this glider. I've only flown it twice. But with a small battery pack and 4-5 climbs I can soar around for 30 minutes with no lift. Its been really windy and difficult to find any thermals. I was able to get it up to about 200 feet though. Looking forward to more flying this weekend.

I did have a few uh-oh moments. On the maiden flight I had a rough landing due to a gust and basically put it into a bush. Today I accidentally did a power on stall too close to the ground (the nose goes WAY up when you give it throttle, it has a lot of power) and I pulled out of the resulting 1/2 turn spin with about two feet to spare.

I have not been able to get the flaps rigged up yet, waiting on a connector. However my plan is to rig the flaps and get flaperons working as well. Hopefully I can get that rigged up so when I have more experience it can be flown out of some smaller areas. Its got enough power to climb out of anything but the big challenge is going to be getting down and landing.
 
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I suck at R/C airplanes, have crashed every one I've owned. I dig the little helicopters though, and can fly a gyro controlled one pretty well in tight spaces. Then again, so can your average 4 year old.
 
I suck at R/C airplanes, have crashed every one I've owned. I dig the little helicopters though, and can fly a gyro controlled one pretty well in tight spaces. Then again, so can your average 4 year old.

What sparked this whole thing was that I picked up a 6CH 450 size helicopter cheap. Its sitting in a box right now, unopened. I can't figure out what I want to do with it really.

The heli is pretty sweet but I'm bound to crash it a few times and they have a lot of small moving parts that must be well tuned/adjusted to fly right. I don't know much about them and I don't know if I have the time to learn and work on it.

BTW the glider is easy to fly. I put it together in about two hours, checked the CG, trimmed the elevator slightly nose up and gave it 2/3 throttle and a toss. As mentioned earlier I had a close call that could have turned it into a lawn dart, but the learning curve is pretty quick.
 
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I did a very similar thing with my laser:

Took multiple long sticks/poles duct taped together to push it out of the tree.
laser_lg.jpg
 
well some glider pilots have trouble figuring that out when all they've flown is spoilered gliders where you hold a more or less level pitch attitude in the pattern.

the steep nose down angle, incredible visibility, and outstanding sink rate with a full flap glider approach can be a bit disconcerting for a first timer. with a little practice though it is flat out FUN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5ZQh-fx_zg
 
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