FL Ban On ADS-B Billing Signed - Effective July 1st

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Just read this in an AvBrief. There's a little more to the article, so go check it out on AvBrief.com if you want more info. But this is the headline...

Florida has banned the use of ADS-B data by airports to bill for landing fees for aircraft weighing less than 12,500 pounds. Gov. Ron DeSantis signed the bill April 23 and it takes effect July 1.

I'm assuming it will stand and there are no legal issues that may overturn it. And if not, hopefully other states will follow shortly.

(Any Attorney's out there that know if there are legal issues or if it is a sold law? Did the do a stupid job in drafting it where it could be shot down?)


ADDED: It should be noted that this has NOTHING to do with airports charging Landing Fees, we all know (should know) that is going to continue. It just means that those few false billings for low approaches or incorrect ADS-B out on the N#s will not be generating bills. My old Airport (KFRG) had one of the Ops/Fire staff (that were on duty anyway) assigned to a desk with binoculars as well as Tower and Ground radios to catch everyone's N#. At some other airports, I know they use cameras similar to traffic or game cameras (or even your doorbell cam :D). You go by and it takes a bunch of pictures and if one of those pics shows your wheels on the runway, you get a bill. So don't get too excited that you're not going to be charged a Landing Fee in the future. Maybe some small airports where they didn't have to put in any infrastructure may now reverse their Landing Fees, but my guess is most will continue with the review stream.
 
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I actually don't have a problem paying a small, well-advertised landing fee at an airport (although I certainly appreciate not having to!) as I think that we need to support what we use. Strongly agree that ADS-B needs to NEVER be used for billing purposes and there should be civil/criminal penalties for such usage.
 
The fees aren’t going to go away ,they just can’t use ADSB. The fees aren’t not always posted, if they are then I can make the decision to go or not go to an airport. I also try to buy gas at the smaller airports.
 
AvNavCom said:
I actually don't have a problem paying a small, well-advertised landing fee at an airport (although I certainly appreciate not having to!) as I think that we need to support what we use. Strongly agree that ADS-B needs to NEVER be used for billing purposes and there should be civil/criminal penalties for such usage.
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How should billing be determined?
 
Lindberg said:
How should billing be determined?
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In a way that doesn't leverage a safety system to drive revenue collection.

I'm fine with cameras, spotters, or whatever the airport manager otherwise deems to be a suitable and equitable arrangement that helps to fund the airport for based and transient pilots. I'm sure there are many models which might work for a given location and traffic density. I just don't like private companies riding on the back of a mandated government safety system to gouge people for cash.
 
AvNavCom said:
In a way that doesn't leverage a safety system to drive revenue collection.
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Why?
AvNavCom said:
I'm fine with cameras, spotters, or whatever the airport manager otherwise deems to be a suitable and equitable arrangement that helps to fund the airport for based and transient pilots. I'm sure there are many models which might work for a given location and traffic density.
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Wouldn't all those other mechanisms cost more to implement, requiring higher fees?
AvNavCom said:
I just don't like private companies riding on the back of a mandated government safety system to gouge people for cash.
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How did we get to gouging?
 
dans2992 said:
The issue is that there is a financial motivation to turn off the safety equipment.
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There's a financial motivation to shop lift too. That doesn't justify it. Thieves are gonna thieve.

I agree with all three of Lindbergh's points. LIke, "how did we get to gouging?"
 
I am a bit surprised that Florida actually passed this. I totally expected it to not pass or at least not without being gutted to the point it is meaningless. After reading the bill I have questions though, as I'm sure management at Vector does.

1. So I'm not allowed to use it for departure or landing fees? Can I use to to collect "super secret ******** fee #426"?
2. In order to make sure that I don't accidentally break the law can I use it to identify which airplanes are under 12,500? And then have a ai match a grainy fuzzy video feed to the tailnumber?
3. What is the punishment for putting up a video camera and claiming to be using that for identifying fees, why continuing to use ADSB...who's gonna know?
 
dcat127 said:
I am a bit surprised that Florida actually passed this. I totally expected it to not pass or at least not without being gutted to the point it is meaningless. After reading the bill I have questions though, as I'm sure management at Vector does.

1. So I'm not allowed to use it for departure or landing fees? Can I use to to collect "super secret ******** fee #426"?
2. In order to make sure that I don't accidentally break the law can I use it to identify which airplanes are under 12,500? And then have a ai match a grainy fuzzy video feed to the tailnumber?
3. What is the punishment for putting up a video camera and claiming to be using that for identifying fees, why continuing to use ADSB...who's gonna know?
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3. “…who’s gonna know?” Someone who didn’t land there and then got billed. Then everyone he told about it, like all of us if he tells it here
 
luvflyin said:
3. “…who’s gonna know?” Someone who didn’t land there and then got billed. Then everyone he told about it, like all of us if he tells it here
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Maybe, but I would expect that hand entering tail numbers from a video feed would probably result in a higher failure rate than using adsb. So a mistake would hardly prove that they are using adsb.
 
I don't have a major issue with a small landing fee, but for training operations, each lap around the traffic pattern counting as a separate landing is very problematic, especially at uncontrolled airports.

Also, the amount of this fee is not well advertised. You have to really look hard in the chart supplement to find the small print that says "Lgd fee". Then you have to google search that airport to find what they are charging, and how. It's not a very transparent process considering it is a public use fee.
 
sarangan said:
I don't have a major issue with a small landing fee, but for training operations, each lap around the traffic pattern counting as a separate landing is very problematic, especially at uncontrolled airports.
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A full landing fee per lap maybe doesn’t make sense but maybe an additional training fee does (be it a bulk fee or a much reduced per lap fee or a grouped fee whatever). I mean each landing does impose some wear and tear on the runway and it will have to be maintained. The flight school running non-stop touch and goes is definitely using and wearing the infrastructure more than the land once and go transient.
 
sarangan said:
I don't have a major issue with a small landing fee, but for training operations, each lap around the traffic pattern counting as a separate landing is very problematic, especially at uncontrolled airports.
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But that really has nothing to do with ADSB.
sarangan said:
Also, the amount of this fee is not well advertised. You have to really look hard in the chart supplement to find the small print that says "Lgd fee". Then you have to google search that airport to find what they are charging, and how. It's not a very transparent process considering it is a public use fee.
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I don't recall landing at a new airport where I didn't inquire about the fees in advance. I usually email the question so I get a written response. If no response, I'll call and take note of the name of the person I spoke with.

But even then, I have been surprised a couple of times when landing at a familiar airport that recently ADDED new fees, or significantly jacked up the price of their usual fees.
 
luvflyin said:
3. “…who’s gonna know?” Someone who didn’t land there and then got billed. Then everyone he told about it, like all of us if he tells it here
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This was an issue prior to airports using adsb, so it's not definitively tied to such use. And I would expect adsb to be much more accurate than AI reading tail numbers off of video.
 
So I guess the rip off AvGas is no longer part of funding the GA system? Landing fee's. Whats next? Taxiway fee's? Communications Fee's? Want to use that chain on that tie down? Its' gonna cost you!
 
like the current license plate readers all over larger cities, FLOCK cameras and traffic light cameras used to send out traffic violations, all of which are owned and operated by private companies under agreement with the municipal entity, there will be some like company offering same to airports is my guess as more airports join in.

the issue is, how will it be enforced? could they put a civil lean on your plane registration renewal if you don't pay it, like a parking ticket? they could certainly get your registration address and send a bill, but then what if you don't pay it.

I think some fee structure was a long time coming especially at municipal fields where city budget supports it. typically, budgets came from on airport rents and taxes and fuel sales, as well as some federal funding for certain fields. They weigh the funding their airport brings into their overall tax based vs it's cost to operate. As with all government budgets, they need more income and rich people with private planes is easy targeting.

when you speak with foreign GA pilots they can't believe how cheap it is to fly here and no landing fees is unbelievable to them. so the price elasticity is there from the airport owners view. ...much like higher cost if new STC'd fuels we will see here shortly.

once a few airports implement landing fees and it doesn't blow up, more are sure to follow, and private companies will enter the market to manage it for a share of the fee, much like traffic cams. . Or a software will be available to scan N# and automatically send a bill.

in boat marinas if you sneak out without paying fees, they call the police and you are charged with theft of services and/or civilly sued ..in most other countries you can go to jail. when I sail outside US, we always make sure we get a clear paid receipt before leaving to avoid any misunderstandings and shakedowns.

many many years ago at KSMO there was talk of imposing a landing fee and the businesses on the field much opposed it, stating they pay specific taxes for airport infrastructure in their rent or taxes...and it would make them less competitive for services. I think compromise was increasing fuel tax a few cents as the airport more than broke even budget wise. The tax kept increasing to point where sales fell off as there were so many other close by fields with much cheaper fuel that most resident planes and others fueled up elsewhere and revenues drop, and the landing fee proposition cycled around again. ...actually a model discussion on economics of supply /demand and regulatory influences.

AOPA and EAA not likely to make a difference, unless proposing federal funds at subsidized fields be witheld if such fees are implemented.... but if the local airport becomes a liability, it will be difficult to sway the pendulum.

FL is holding itself out to the wealthy as a place they won't be fleaced .... outlawing ADSB billing methods reenforces that agenda to potential residents. Where landing fees are collected , it's done by FBO or airport authority. I tied down in Alexandria LA for 2 nights this month in my c172 ...no landing fees but paid some airport security fee, a facility fee, and $5 a night tie down fee , totalling about 40-50 bucks. ...landing fee is just a name, they will get it one way or another.

just another straw on the GA camel's back
 
JOhnH said:
But that really has nothing to do with ADSB.

I don't recall landing at a new airport where I didn't inquire about the fees in advance. I usually email the question so I get a written response. If no response, I'll call and take note of the name of the person I spoke with.

But even then, I have been surprised a couple of times when landing at a familiar airport that recently ADDED new fees, or significantly jacked up the price of their usual fees.
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Everything you stated illustrates the problem - first you need to find out who to call, and then ask what their fees are, and then take the name of the person who told you that. I can't think of anything else in public services works that way.
 
dcat127 said:
1. So I'm not allowed to use it for departure or landing fees? Can I use to to collect "super secret ******** fee #426"?
2. In order to make sure that I don't accidentally break the law can I use it to identify which airplanes are under 12,500? And then have a ai match a grainy fuzzy video feed to the tailnumber?
3. What is the punishment for putting up a video camera and claiming to be using that for identifying fees, why continuing to use ADSB...who's gonna know?
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1) Okay, I'll bite. I'm usually ignore all the stupid conspiracy theories. What is the "super secret ******** fee #426"?

2) Even the cheap cameras now days have incredible resolution, there will not be any grainy images. Even the few planes that have been grandfathered to have the tiny numbers will be easily readable. :cool:

3) They probably could get away with it for awhile, but there will be a DB glitch or a low approach that gets billed as a landing (which is one of the big issues that occasionally happens now).

Glad they did it and I really wish there would be a Federal Law since the Feds said the data would never be used for this purpose. But if the Feds don't do it, I hope the States step up.
 
sarangan said:
I don't have a major issue with a small landing fee, but for training operations, each lap around the traffic pattern counting as a separate landing is very problematic, especially at uncontrolled airports.
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Regretfully the small airports are the ones that probably need the most cash. So if they are charging a Landing Fee and they can continue without ADS-B, I bet they will.

I flew out of an airport for decades that had a $2.50 landing fee (for light GA). The flights schools were charged for every landing and I'm assuming they passed that on to their students. So you'd see the massive number of flights lined up for departure and they'd all fly away to some other Apt that didn't charge landing fees. For new students/learners and those days the Wx was iffy and they stayed in the pattern, the Ops guy in the window wrote down every time they landed.
 
It's the same rug-pull starlink just got lampooned for. got you to buy equipment under terms X, now meet terms Y. Only this time, there was a regulatory mandate so no "buyer beware" argument.
 
M20K said:
1) Okay, I'll bite. I'm usually ignore all the stupid conspiracy theories. What is the "super secret ******** fee #426"?
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Perhaps that wasn't the best way of phrasing what I was thinking.

But since the text in the law specifically mentions landings and departures. Could you get past the ban by calling it something different. I.e. your not being billed to land or depart but for "using" the airport.
 
dcat127 said:
But since the text in the law specifically mentions landings and departures. Could you get past the ban by calling it something different. I.e. your not being billed to land or depart but for "using" the airport.
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I haven't actually seen the law, but from what I hear, they made it pretty blatant that you don't use ADS-B. So it would be pretty dumb if someone tried to explain to a judge in some lawsuit that they used their made up terms vs the real terms so it was okay for them to do it.
 
M20K said:
I haven't actually seen the law, but from what I hear, they made it pretty blatant that you don't use ADS-B. So it would be pretty dumb if someone tried to explain to a judge in some lawsuit that they used their made up terms vs the real terms so it was okay for them to do it.
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Isn't that most of what a defense lawyer does every day?
 
regardless of how an airport authority collects the info of who landed and when, which is likely the cheapest part of the scheme and not the challenge for them, better question is how they collect it and how they enforce it.

if anyone has landed at a field with fees. they know the FBO (which typically collects the airport fee) will not let you go until fees and other charges are paid in full. this is more of a challenge for smaller fields without a FBO or full time employee on site.

I expect in such cases there will be a drop box or online pay app, as with the state parks or parking lots after gate hours. But if you don't pay the state can send you a bill and collect it next time you renew car registration, and the lot can have you towed. ..so they have mechanism to collect. not sure how that will work with a PA28 that did touch and goes or left after office closed and didn't pay. will faa registration allow such holds on renewal or act as a collector by adding such outstanding balances for small community airports? I doubt it.

but, regardless, more fees are coming.
 
AvNavCom said:
I actually don't have a problem paying a small, well-advertised landing fee at an airport (although I certainly appreciate not having to!) as I think that we need to support what we use. Strongly agree that ADS-B needs to NEVER be used for billing purposes and there should be civil/criminal penalties for such usage.
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i vote that landing fees be part of every ATIS broadcast. :p
 
pfarber said:
i vote that landing fees be part of every ATIS broadcast. :p
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Heh. I'd prefer that than landing and getting surprised with some ridiculous $150 "ramp fee" for a piece of concrete that the biller didn't build or pay for. We can already get fuel price information for almost every airport in our EFBs. Seems like it wouldn't be difficult to put landing fee information in there. As I said, I'm not opposed to paying a modest landing fee when it goes to support the infrastructure and continued operation of the airport. I just want to know about it beforehand (preferably without having to call during business hours to find out) and the fee be reasonable (i.e.: not "go away, light GA" pricing you see at some publicly-funded airports near sporting events).
 
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