Fiscal "guru" rant...

denverpilot

denverpilot

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I left the channel on the TV set to some PBS Suze Orman thing last night where she outlined her plan for a "new American Dream" which basically paraphrased was, "Have a budget, realize you're all frakking broke, and get used to living in squalor, peasants!"

She had a guy tell his story of spending a bejillion bucks on a second educational degree and still not finding a job. She had him up in stage to "affirm" him after telling him it was a crappy investment.

Then she babbled about how she will "fix it" for him soon -- by making student loan debt dismissible in bankruptcy, since its "unfair" that it isn't today.

No mention of what the degree was in. No mention of tailoring your education to something that's actually in demand.

Just "don't do what he did, but it's not his fault - let's have him up on stage for a group hug". Gah!!!!

I wanted to throw things at my TV but I figured it cost more to replace it than I was willing to earn to spend on it. :)

Then immediately into the "buy my $250 DVD set and support PBS while I'll tell you all some more how wonderful you all are and that you're broke" since it's begging season at our local PBS affiliate.

To be fair, some of her books have useful info in them. Best way to get it is to check them out from the library. Not spend $250 on the things as part of a donation. Sheesh.

Guess what most of them say? Make a budget. Live within the budget. Buy a helmet. Things get bad, put on the helmet.

(Oops. Mixed Ron White with Suze Orman there.)

She's enamored with Living Trusts also, which is fine. They have their purpose. Helps to know the laws of your State though. Probate Attorney laughed his butt off at the idea of using a Living Trust in Colorado when I asked over a cigar and beer one night.

She also never met an insurance policy she didn't like.

And the fiscal powers that be caught on to her FICO score games and stopped using that particular score and built ten more, targeted at specific types of purchases in life, none of which you can order from anyone as a consumer. She still pushes getting the thing via her kickback partners though.

Anyone like watching her CNBC show? We tossed cable/dish a while back, but it was on the TV late night at the hotel last weekend, so I got in one of my guilty pleasures.

I love the "Can I Afford It?" segment. The crap people think they need sometimes is amazing.

Then they share their round numbers for their personal budget, and you get to do the facepalm with Suze. "You're $500,000 in debt, have no appreciable savings, you're spending more than the two of you make, and you wanna go to baseball camp?!"

I think they should re-title the segment, "YGBFKM!" Maybe have voting like American Idol. LOL!

So this thread is for your financial "guru" rants...

I'd get started on that twit with the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" books if I felt like typing more. (His background story that started the franchise has been thoroughly debunked by the way... Never happened. Not like he told it, anyway. Fiction.)

'Bout the most useful "money" book out there to me was "The Millionaire Next Door". Somewhat dated now, but wasn't trying to pitch you on someone's "system", told ya to drive a beater pickup truck, and live within your means. Not too bad. Nothing earth-shattering unless you like to spend on stupid stuff.

The other was Cramer's "Comfessions of a Street Addict", more for the story of how he ended up living in his car and finally said "screw it" and went and did something with his life, more than the Wall Street stories of him behaving like a crazed lunatic running a hedge fund.

Also pointed out the old truth that if you make someone else piles of money, they might let ya keep a little for yourself. Insurance against them ripping them off, mostly. Ha.

All of the above, available at your local library again, by the way.

Any other fiscal guru / get rich quick scheme rants? I love tearing apart these "systems". A minor hobby at best, but fun nevertheless.
 
She had a guy tell his story of spending a bejillion bucks on a second educational degree and still not finding a job.
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You know what this sorta sounds like, dontcha? That guy who was on last week with the engineering job, $58k in debt, and now wants to become an airline pilot.
 
Dave Ramsey has made a killing telling people the obvious for years. Don't go into debt, if you did, pay it off. I'll give him credit though, he's taken one sentence worth of information that should be "smack you in the face"*obvious and made a career out of it.
 
bartmc said:
Dave Ramsey has made a killing telling people the obvious for years. Don't go into debt, if you did, pay it off. I'll give him credit though, he's taken one sentence worth of information that should be "smack you in the face"*obvious and made a career out of it.
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Lots of "gurus" do that. You couldn't hold 3 day seminars all across the country and sell $250 of materials if you didn't bloat your basic pamphlet sized recipe into a full sized book plus workbooks, DVD's, etc.
 
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Fiscal gurus are there to make money. For themselves.
 
Dave Ramsey for me. Only thing I have now is my mortgage which has allowed me to live for over a year now on my early retirement package. If I can dig up a new I'll certainly target the mortgage.
 
I watched Suze Orman for the first time I can remember just a couple of nights ago. She told some guy that he could afford to buy a $1500 aviator watch that's only available to military personnel in the "Can I Afford It?" segment. My DVR automatically recorded it for me because of that keyword. :)
 
bartmc said:
Dave Ramsey has made a killing telling people the obvious for years. Don't go into debt, if you did, pay it off. I'll give him credit though, he's taken one sentence worth of information that should be "smack you in the face"*obvious and made a career out of it.
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I think he'd be a fun guy to have a beer with. At first, I was somewhat turned off by his show but its really grown on me. I stream it with the IHEARTRADIO app. I gotta hand it to people like him giving the same advice for 20 years with the same passion -- pretty impressive.

Suze Orman always seems like she's trying to hypnotize me. It freaks me out.
 
Lots of people were giving the same advice at least 30 years before Ramsey came along. I was one of them. Give Ramsey credit for making it popular, but remember that timing plays a major role in many success stories, including his.

Many of his disciples adopted his credo because they were on their ass and were desperate for any way to get out of the trap. Good for them for doing it, good for him for helping them develop a plan that worked.

Sam D said:
I think he'd be a fun guy to have a beer with. At first, I was somewhat turned off by his show but its really grown on me. I stream it with the IHEARTRADIO app. I gotta hand it to people like him giving the same advice for 20 years with the same passion -- pretty impressive.

Suze Orman always seems like she's trying to hypnotize me. It freaks me out.
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wabower said:
Lots of people were giving the same advice at least 30 years before Ramsey came along. I was one of them. Give Ramsey credit for making it popular, but remember that timing plays a major role in many success stories, including his.

Many of his disciples adopted his credo because they were on their ass and were desperate for any way to get out of the trap. Good for them for doing it, good for him for helping them develop a plan that worked.
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But Wayne, did you go bankrupt along the way? :) I think his "fall and redemption" helps the marketing with the flock.

To your point, he is consistent in saying that his advice is nothing new.
 
One of DR's sound bites is "Financial advice your great-grandmother would give you, but this time, we'll keep our teeth in".

I once shared that with someone who was asking for my help on setting up a budget. Then the phone was silent for 20-30 seconds until I asked if he was still on the line.

"I am, but I gotta ask. What does getting out of debt have to do with you kicking my teeth in?"
 
No BK, but some anxious moments along the way. The first big one was in 1068, about a year after I started in the retail securities business. At our annual big-hitter sales conference in Scottsdale we woke up to watch the biggest Dow and S&P downturn since the depression. Many of my clients were heavily invested in equities (as was I) and they, including the missus, were not particularly thrilled by the sudden erosion of their net worth. Fortunately the market recovered fairly quickly, but it was touch-and-go (no pun) at the bank for longer than I would have liked.

Sam D said:
But Wayne, did you go bankrupt along the way? :) I think his "fall and redemption" helps the marketing with the flock.

To your point, he is consistent in saying that his advice is nothing new.
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I think the big probelm with most people is that their parents did not teach them about finances, how to make friends, sex, algebra, ....

Most parents do not know about them.

Most things people can hide, but eventually, most problems will catch up with you. Money problems is but one.

Financial teachers are out there who know how to help and the lessons are not cheap.

The key is to spend less than you make and delay gratification. Most people cannot do that with any part of their lives to be able to be successful.
 
texasag93 said:
I think the big probelm with most people is that their parents did not teach them about finances, how to make friends, sex, algebra, ....

Most parents do not know about them.

Most things people can hide, but eventually, most problems will catch up with you. Money problems is but one.

Financial teachers are out there who know how to help and the lessons are not cheap.

The key is to spend less than you make and delay gratification. Most people cannot do that with any part of their lives to be able to be successful.
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I did listen to DR and already did most of the things he talks about.

I like listening to him because he has an upbeat message and I feel better after listening to him after all of the political BS on the other radio stations.
 
Wow, I knew you were old, but didn't realize your keyboard skills were reflective of your advanced years . . . until now.
FTFY
 
DR has simply taken good solid simple common sense and made a very profitable message out of it - he's an opportunist and took advantage of the current market of people in dire need of common sense advice (as many before have done) - but he also has enough showmanship in him to make it a hit and he makes a lot of money doing it. Kudos to him. Make no mistake, he's working FOR HIMSELF, not the guy on the other end of the phone. If the guy on the phone gets some help out of it then that's great too - but this is Dave working for Dave and being good at it. The rest of the world would do well to pay attention to HOW he's doing what he's doing, not necessarily what he's doing. He's simply supplying a market that demands his product.

You don't need his entire program to stay out of debt and be ok with money. You only need about HALF of what he says - but you need to absolutely have at least half of it. Most people cheat on every plan they have ever started, so he sets the bar high enough that nearly anybody involved at any level sees some success, and that's what has made him millions.

The masses are devoid of common sense, they don't know enough to feed themselves anymore. We are one decent disaster away from mass starvation for all but those very few who see it coming. The East Coast under the hurricane is a good example - they were predicting this hurricane would wipe out humanity as we know it on the east coast for most of a week before it hit - and look how many people were too ignorant to fill the gas tank in the car, buy flashlight batteries, or stock up on non-perishable food. Really?

Sheep.
 
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Doesn't your post hold true for all companies that well serve their market?

airguy said:
DR has simply taken good solid simple common sense and made a very profitable message out of it - he's an opportunist and took advantage of the current market of people in dire need of common sense advice (as many before have done) - but he also has enough showmanship in him to make it a hit and he makes a lot of money doing it. Kudos to him. Make no mistake, he's working FOR HIMSELF, not the guy on the other end of the phone. If the guy on the phone gets some help out of it then that's great too - but this is Dave working for Dave and being good at it. The rest of the world would do well to pay attention to HOW he's doing what he's doing, not necessarily what he's doing. He's simply supplying a market that demands his product.

You don't need his entire program to stay out of debt and be ok with money. You only need about HALF of what he says - but you need to absolutely have at least half of it. Most people cheat on every plan they have ever started, so he sets the bar high enough that nearly anybody involved at any level sees some success, and that's what has made him millions.

The masses are devoid of common sense, they don't know enough to feed themselves anymore. We are one decent disaster away from mass starvation for all but those very few who see it coming. The East Coast under the hurricane is a good example - they were predicting this hurricane would wipe out humanity as we know it on the east coast for most of a week before it hit - and look how many people were too ignorant to fill the gas tank in the car, buy flashlight batteries, or stock up on non-perishable food. Really?

Sheep.
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wabower said:
Doesn't your post hold true for all companies that well serve their market?
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Yup - that was kind of my point. It has nothing to do with finance or Dave, and everything to do with a businessman that knows his market and makes a dollar from it.
 
denverpilot said:
Then she babbled about how she will "fix it" for him soon -- by making student loan debt dismissible in bankruptcy, since its "unfair" that it isn't today.
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At the risk of sounding snobbish, why shouldn't student loan debt be able to be shed in court? I can't offhand think of anything else that isn't.
 
Is debtors prison still practiced somewhere in the world?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
At the risk of sounding snobbish, why shouldn't student loan debt be able to be shed in court? I can't offhand think of anything else that isn't.
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The general problem is that it sets up the same moral situation that led to the crazy mortgage stuff. Lots of college students are bankrupt on paper the day they graduate.

So they'd just get the education, walk out, file for bankruptcy, and their school would get nothing as they headed off debt free (with "bad credit" for ten years, but who cares at that age, cash and carry...) to their first professional job.

I have made the oft comment that an "education" isn't necessarily worth what you paid for it before, but making the debt dismissible will mean folks WILL dismiss it, day one out of school, if they're allowed.

Those same folks saw the price sheet before signing the loan documents, so I have low levels of pity for that... But do understand that most kids going to college are broke. I know I was, and I grew up when part-time "crap" jobs were easier to find, so I had three of them along with a "full-time" course load.

It's a tough nut to crack, socially. We socialize education almost completely up to a point, then we make it expensive with socialized loans after that point. To dismiss the socialized loans breaks our system of indentured servitude masquerading as freedom. :)

The only way you could fairly allow it to be dismissed is if the school could retroactively take away the degree, which would just lead to people figuring out that the education itself is worth more than the sheepskin, which is a natural truth in and of itself, but no one wants to make it that obvious, especially the sellers of sheepskin. ;)
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
At the risk of sounding snobbish, why shouldn't student loan debt be able to be shed in court? I can't offhand think of anything else that isn't.
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If it wee so, I imagine, then student loans would carry interest expense and credit requirements commensurate with other forms of lending.

If one wants the same low interest and long term as, say, home loans, expect a requirement for some sort collateral* and don't be surprised if the type of degree dictates the amount one can borrow**

*Not sure what this would be
**not necessarily a bad thing...maybe?
 
denverpilot said:
So they'd just get the education, walk out, file for bankruptcy, and their school would get nothing as they headed off debt free (with "bad credit" for ten years, but who cares at that age, cash and carry...) to their first professional job.
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A nit to your rant: it would not be the school that gets nothing, it would be the lender. Very rarely is the school also the lender. Most often, the lender is the government, followed by financial institutions. Parents are also on the hook for some loans, though most of that debt (home mortgage, unsecured loans, etc) are covered under the bankruptcy laws.

So, allowing discharge of debt would hurt the government (read: the taxpayer) more so than the schools. There could well be a ripple effect.... more debt discharged, less money available, tougher availability, lower enrollment, school hurt... but that's long chain and likely to be affected by politics.

If you're going this route, might as well provide direct Federal government funding instead of loans... save the whole "repayment" and "bankruptcy" steps....
 
that reminds me, my credit card expired yesterday
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
At the risk of sounding snobbish, why shouldn't student loan debt be able to be shed in court? I can't offhand think of anything else that isn't.
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For the same reason you cannot discharge taxes. It is government money, loaned at a very low interest rate. If the debt is allowed to be discharged in bankruptcy (what poor student would not choose this option?) the rates would skyrocket, and loans would be very hard to get.

You do realize that when debt is discharged in bankruptcy we all pay it right?
 
Didn't some think tank calculate the plunge in tuition rates that would occur on the day that student loans disappear?
 
You mean my plan to spend 100K to get my PhD in the History of Medieval Weaving and teach at a junior college and drive to and from my 7000sqft. home in a new Porsche isn't a good one???? :(
 
Threefingeredjack said:
You mean my plan to spend 100K to get my PhD in the History of Medieval Weaving and teach at a junior college and drive to and from my 7000sqft. home in a new Porsche isn't a good one???? :(
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It's a fine plan. The government will forgive the student loans at some point, force the bank to revalue your mortgage to a more reasonable value for you and the union ill et you top dollar at your job, plus you'll be able to retire in 20 years at 100% with full benefits.

Not sure about the Porsche though. You need to buy a Volt :wink2:
 
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denverpilot said:
The general problem is that it sets up the same moral situation that led to the crazy mortgage stuff. Lots of college students are bankrupt on paper the day they graduate.

So they'd just get the education, walk out, file for bankruptcy, and their school would get nothing as they headed off debt free (with "bad credit" for ten years, but who cares at that age, cash and carry...) to their first professional job.

I have made the oft comment that an "education" isn't necessarily worth what you paid for it before, but making the debt dismissible will mean folks WILL dismiss it, day one out of school, if they're allowed.

Those same folks saw the price sheet before signing the loan documents, so I have low levels of pity for that... But do understand that most kids going to college are broke. I know I was, and I grew up when part-time "crap" jobs were easier to find, so I had three of them along with a "full-time" course load.

It's a tough nut to crack, socially. We socialize education almost completely up to a point, then we make it expensive with socialized loans after that point. To dismiss the socialized loans breaks our system of indentured servitude masquerading as freedom. :)

The only way you could fairly allow it to be dismissed is if the school could retroactively take away the degree, which would just lead to people figuring out that the education itself is worth more than the sheepskin, which is a natural truth in and of itself, but no one wants to make it that obvious, especially the sellers of sheepskin. ;)
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I think you got that bass ackward
 
EppyGA said:
It's a fine plan. The government will forgive the student loans at some point...
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Actually Student Loans are one if the only forms of debt that's dismissed upon death, and not assessed to the student's estate.

Since they can also be put in forebearance for extended periods of time for fiscal "hardship", there's almost never a good reason to pay them off at anything higher than the minimum payment other than the interest. (That is, of course, a significant reason in and of itself, but often if the issue is cash flow and not total cost, it's a useful strategy.)

If you die before they're paid off, you win. Er, so to speak.
 
If the education was worthwhile the new graduate would be able to produce something with the education that demonstrates they have matriculated. Instead the degree is simply a passport into the world that someone else has prepared for them.
 
wabower said:
No BK, but some anxious moments along the way. The first big one was in 1068, about a year after I started in the retail securities business.
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Everskyward said:
Wow, I knew you were old, but...
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Yes, a little known fact. Wayne started as a junior assistant spear carrier at the Battle of Hastings, and two years later went into business using his hard earned persuasive skills to sell securities. :wink2:

-Skip
 
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