First Real Soft-Field Landing

Aeric

Aeric

Line Up and Wait
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Aeric
Saturday another POA member and I flew to a grass strip, Frazier Lake Airpark. Pardon me, but I'm a rather green pilot. It was fun! I was a little apprehensive about not having a VASI or PAPI, but it was just a matter of keeping the sight picture correct, stabilized approach, 4-500 fpm descent, 65-70 mph on final, flare, keep the weight off the nose and smell the grass:). The problem was finding the grass strip amongst the grass fields. Oh well, I'm learning.
Anyway, great little field, nice people and a good day.
 
Henning said:
Grass does not make for a 'soft field', mud makes for a soft field.
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True enough but for low-time pilots (and I am just starting to consider myself elsewise) grass is "soft enough" and a first landing on grass is an occasion of note and a real-life opportunity to use a skill. Mine was about two years ago in club 172 when I went to a private field to talk to a fellow about a multi rating. He said "just think of it as 'green concrete'". I did fine but did taxi through a swale exiting as I did not understand that the "exit" was marked. No harm done but not the best idea and a bit of a surprise. :yikes:
 
Henning said:
Grass does not make for a 'soft field', mud makes for a soft field.
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True in general, though IMO it's a good idea to use soft field techniques on grass whether you need to or not, especially if the strip is unfamiliar. I've landed on grass before and had my tires bog down. Bad drainage after a lot of rain, even though it hadn't rained in a couple days. Unfamiliar strip. Early on, did a wheel landing (not soft field technique) on another unfamiliar grass strip and got a surprise as the nose pitched over abruptly on touchdown through no input from me. Very soft grass, but no prop strike.
 
I love grass fields. I could argue that training would be better done on them. Less tire/gear wear and learning to really use all the PPL skills designed for grass.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I love grass fields. I could argue that training would be better done on them.
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That would mean you don't have a VASI/PAPI...and probably under 5000' to land a 152. :eek: Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. ;) But tailwheel training should not be done solely on grass. Too forgiving. Otherwise, students (and many CFIs) would be well-served to spend some time at grass strips.
 
I actually just started learning soft field ops the other day. I asked my CFI if she has ever been to a soft field and she said no - mainly due to insurance reasons from the FBOs and schools. Aw. I wanted to go to one!
 
HerrGruyere said:
I actually just started learning soft field ops the other day. I asked my CFI if she has ever been to a soft field and she said no - mainly due to insurance reasons from the FBOs and schools. Aw. I wanted to go to one!
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Yep, our insurance company says :no:

Bummer, it took a lot of the stress about engine failure away after I landed on grass and KNEW I didn't need pavement.
 
I don't understand the insurance thing. I used to land a Bonanza on grass all the time, any fixed gear Cessna should be more than fine. It's probably one of those let's just exclude everything we possibly can things.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't understand the insurance thing. I used to land a Bonanza on grass all the time, any fixed gear Cessna should be more than fine. It's probably one of those let's just exclude everything we possibly can things.
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Many Cessna retracts can do just fine on grass too. I'm still a little skittish with my 177RG and try to get a current conditions report from someone on the ground even at familiar fields, but grass is definitely not a showstopper. The nosewheel strut shaft needs a little TLC afterward, but that's to be expected.

As for using soft-field technique even when it's not needed, I find that's a good idea even if the field is firm, since you want the weight off the nosewheel anyway in case of bumps.
 
Yeah, it's weird... I've asked several CFIs if they have ever actually flown off a soft field, anything other than concrete or asphalt. So far none have ever done it, not even the high time commercial charter guys. Hell, I'm going to try to do it next year at Gaston's.

The FBO rental agreement and the school rules all say non-paved runways are strictly verboten. The club has no such rule.... "It's your airplane and ours, just don't break it".
 
Aeric said:
Saturday another POA member and I flew to a grass strip, Frazier Lake Airpark. Pardon me, but I'm a rather green pilot. It was fun! I was a little apprehensive about not having a VASI or PAPI, but it was just a matter of keeping the sight picture correct, stabilized approach, 4-500 fpm descent, 65-70 mph on final, flare, keep the weight off the nose and smell the grass:). The problem was finding the grass strip amongst the grass fields. Oh well, I'm learning.
Anyway, great little field, nice people and a good day.
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Very cool. :thumbsup:
 
alfadog said:
True enough but for low-time pilots (and I am just starting to consider myself elsewise) grass is "soft enough" and a first landing on grass is an occasion of note and a real-life opportunity to use a skill. Mine was about two years ago in club 172 when I went to a private field to talk to a fellow about a multi rating. He said "just think of it as 'green concrete'". I did fine but did taxi through a swale exiting as I did not understand that the "exit" was marked. No harm done but not the best idea and a bit of a surprise. :yikes:
Click to expand...


Actually, grass on a dry surface is in no way a simulation of 'soft field', it's actually the easiest safest surface to land on, LEAST likely for you to break a plane on. Real soft is a whole different thing which will f- you up.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't understand the insurance thing. I used to land a Bonanza on grass all the time, any fixed gear Cessna should be more than fine. It's probably one of those let's just exclude everything we possibly can things.
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Bonanza gear is tough as it gets, it's the primary bush plane in Australia.
 
DaleB said:
The club has no such rule.... "It's your airplane and ours, just don't break it".
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Our club's insurance prohibits retracts from landing on grass, but grass landings are permitted for the fixed gear planes.

-Skip
 
azure said:
"The pilot didn't know the ground was snow covered."

And this was during the afternoon, i.e. broad daylight... I don't get it. :dunno:
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That's what I thought too. I have to think he was unfamiliar with the area or something. Apparently he didn't know it was covered with a couple FEET of snow. A couple of inches wouldn't have been a problem, maybe. But apparently the field is listed as being CLOSED in winter, that should have been enough to tell him not to land there.

I wasn't there, but it sounds a lot like poor planning/ADM to me.
 
if insurance rates and policies can be considered a reflection of risk, then landing on grass must be a higher risk than pavement. As someone who enjoys landing on grass runways I don't really understand why that is. Perhaps it is because higher risk (taildragger etc) flying tends to concentrate on grass runways??? I have no idea.
 
Maybe it's more "unpaved" risk than grass risk. Unpaved runways are more likely to be rough, have potholes, be soft, slippery, etc. - some of them are pretty sketchy. And I've heard wet grass is slicker than snot compared to wet pavement.
 
tonycondon said:
if insurance rates and policies can be considered a reflection of risk, then landing on grass must be a higher risk than pavement. As someone who enjoys landing on grass runways I don't really understand why that is. Perhaps it is because higher risk (taildragger etc) flying tends to concentrate on grass runways??? I have no idea.
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The reason is you can't look at the runway and recognize whether soft or no. Taildragger ops are typically concentrated on grass, much less likely for a screwed up landing than concrete.
 
Just to chime in: Grass runways are pretty much the standard for general aviation airfields in many parts of Europe. You'll find a lot of high performance airplanes with retractable gear there, too. I seem to recall that Fokker used to test fly jetplanes on a grass runway on the island of Texel (EHTX).​

images
 
I doubt that -- it would mean the pilot had to do an off-airport emergency landing!

Edit: But yeah, I know what you mean.
 
Aeric said:
Saturday another POA member and I flew to a grass strip, Frazier Lake Airpark. Pardon me, but I'm a rather green pilot. It was fun! I was a little apprehensive about not having a VASI or PAPI, but it was just a matter of keeping the sight picture correct, stabilized approach, 4-500 fpm descent, 65-70 mph on final, flare, keep the weight off the nose and smell the grass:). The problem was finding the grass strip amongst the grass fields. Oh well, I'm learning.
Anyway, great little field, nice people and a good day.
Click to expand...

Sorry I call you another POA member. You might as well say Kimberlyanne546. And I totally forgot to upload the photos and videos. Let's see if I can get Cloud Ahoy. Hang on.
 
Don't know how Cloud Ahoy measures but it says our landing was roughly 900 feet (taxi / rollout is a different count).
 
I used to live 2 miles from the end of runway 27, just about straight inline with it, at 0C2, and I used to love going down there and watching the gliders and idiots - I mean parachutists, going in and out of there. I got to land on it in a Cub once, and in a Cherokee several times (with the pilot owners of the planes, of course). Way cool! I could recognize the sounds of the Paunee (pulling gliders) or the Twin Otter (jumpers) without walking out of my house, as they flew directly overhead, probably not more than 1500' up by the time they got to that point in the climb.
 
GeierFlyer said:
Just to chime in: Grass runways are pretty much the standard for general aviation airfields in many parts of Europe. You'll find a lot of high performance airplanes with retractable gear there, too. I seem to recall that Fokker used to test fly jetplanes on a grass runway on the island of Texel (EHTX).​



images
Click to expand...

Was that the Big Motor Fokker, or the Little Motor Fokker?
 
Henning said:
Actually, grass on a dry surface is in no way a simulation of 'soft field', it's actually the easiest safest surface to land on, LEAST likely for you to break a plane on. Real soft is a whole different thing which will f- you up.
Click to expand...

Understood. And good grass will not "f- you up". However, I did recently land my Arrow at 04FA to take the Luscombe up and grass definitely not equal pavement. As you know. And as a civil engineer, I can say with some authority that grass is "softer" than pavement. :D
 
I've done some grass and some soft-field-grass (post-rain) in the Apache. Do it at least once so you're not afraid of it dry, wet is... interesting. Mainly what's on a dry day otherwise smooth golf-course-grass could slow one tire enough for you to swivel a little.

As far as the snow pic, clearly that's an Australian pilot doing a perfect landing for his relative hemisphere...
 
RoscoeT said:
True in general, though IMO it's a good idea to use soft field techniques on grass whether you need to or not, especially if the strip is unfamiliar. I've landed on grass before and had my tires bog down. Bad drainage after a lot of rain, even though it hadn't rained in a couple days. Unfamiliar strip. Early on, did a wheel landing (not soft field technique) on another unfamiliar grass strip and got a surprise as the nose pitched over abruptly on touchdown through no input from me. Very soft grass, but no prop strike.
Click to expand...
I agree with Henning, a grass strip is not truly a "soft field". However, knowing that this is a surface other than concrete or asphalt, I elected to exercise a soft-field landing. Knowing that the strip was the same length as the runway that I had trained on and always had plenty of runway to spare, there was no reason to do otherwise. Heck, I hope all renters try to keep as little weight on my nosewheel as possible.
 
I've landed on "grass" that almost shook my teeth out, and left bits of foam rubber insulation from behind the panel all over the floor. But then again, it's Colorado... the grass is mostly brown unless you water it. :)
 
alfadog said:
Understood. And good grass will not "f- you up". However, I did recently land my Arrow at 04FA to take the Luscombe up and grass definitely not equal pavement. As you know. And as a civil engineer, I can say with some authority that grass is "softer" than pavement. :D
Click to expand...


Softer most definitely, 'soft' most definitely not. Just so long as you don't approach an actual soft field expecting the same kind of action.;)
 
DaleB said:
They were flight testing a new super-quiet engine... the Dumb Motor Fokker.
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And when they finished that test series, they bolted on a full authority digital engine controller and, yep, you guessed it: they tested the Smart Motor Fokker.

:D
 
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