First real go around yesterday

simtech

simtech

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Simtech
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I'm doing my tail wheel endorsement which is a blast! So we are pattern pounding and we notice a yellow cub take off before us. He didn't announce anything but it took off and left the pattern.

I'm on downwind and calling all my legs. I line up for my first wheel landing ever and in a slight cross wind. I'm carrying my speed perfect. As I touch down, a little hard, I had a slight bounce and pushed forward. The second I did that the bounce got more pronounced and forgetting to pull back instead I fire walled and got out of there.

Next one was better no bounce at all. But the third..remember the yellow piper cub. Well I'm on base and just called my final. I turn final and as the wing comes up I see the yellow plane turning base rounding it right into final..right in front of me! Dude didn't say anything so I had to break out and do a 360. When I came back around I lined back up and was gonna land. Well he was still on the runway as I'm about 300ft agl so I had to go around and do a side step to see what he was gonna do.

Found out that guy never announces anything and people just get out of the way for him. Really??

Anyways that was my first two real world go around. Not much to talk about. Haha
 
Well since he may not have a radio... yes really. That is why we see and avoid, quite possible he didn't see you.
 
If he was NORDO, that's fine. It's why we're trained to see and avoid. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, if he had a radio and didn't use it, that's a different story.
 
See and avoid is great and all but rules still apply. I was lower than him and setting up on final. Had I lifted my wings and he was right on top of me we would have been screwed and nothing I could have done. See and avoid is a two way street. Yeah not sure if he had a radio or not. I almost bet he doesn't which would make you think he would be more vigilant.

But hey it did I instill in me the reason why I want a low wing. Just got to worry about the peeps below me the .
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
Now, if he had a radio and didn't use it, that's a different story.
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Don't see how it's different. Nothing says you have to use a radio, even if it is equipped.

See and avoid is a two way street, yes. But the OP saw him and avoided him, so it worked. The Cub clearly did not see the OP.
 
At non-towered fields, you aren't required to use a radio. There are some people who are afraid of radios, so they won't use them.

In every FRAT I've seen, non-towered fields are considered an increased risk worth a few points. Now you know why.
 
flyingmoose said:
Well since he may not have a radio... yes really.....
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Cpt_Kirk said:
If he was NORDO, that's fine. It's why we're trained to see and avoid. Nothing wrong with that....
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hate it hate it hate it hate it.

I know I won't make friends with this comment but I simply can't stand the "oh, it's ok not to have a radio" line of thinking.

I partake in a lot of hobbies/activities and I'm almost never vocal about much, but in aviation, to me, it is utterly unacceptable not to have a radio.
 
eman1200 said:
hate it hate it hate it hate it.

I know I won't make friends with this comment but I simply can't stand the "oh, it's ok not to have a radio" line of thinking.

I partake in a lot of hobbies/activities and I'm almost never vocal about much, but in aviation, to me, it is utterly unacceptable not to have a radio.
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You can hate it all you want, but hard to power a radio when you don't even have an electrical system.
Handheld? sure... if they want to.

It is ok to not have a radio.
 
flyingmoose said:
You can hate it all you want, but hard to power a radio when you don't even have an electrical system.
Handheld? sure... if they want to.

It is ok to not have a radio.
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I'm with eman. Handhelds are 200 bucks. Cheap safety insurance. I have one in my Bo and have had 3 ocassions on which to use it.

We had plenty of NORDOs at my last airport, seeing them taxi out to the centerline while I was on short final was routine. So that left only one of us to see and avoid.

I actually had one do an emergency landing at a towered airport, NORDO. I was cleared to take the runway and saw him on a quasi final before the tower did. A radio would have been handy.
 
Quote won't post...assume it's my ipad.. Yes I was at M40. How'd you guess? Haha
 
Sure okay NORDO is fine and legal but it doesn't give you the right to think everyone will know what your thinking or that everyone just yields to you especially if they don't see you in time.

I mean I'm on final and this guy didn't see me? Maybe not but poor see and avoid on his part to just cut me off. I always make sure no one is on final before I take off and before I turn final. I always call is saying final is clear. Small habit. No when turning final I should call downwind clear. Haha
 
We have a nice handheld setup in the cub and use it. However there are many cubs with no radio.

What some folks might consider a normal pattern in a 172 or the like is really an agonizingly long and slow pattern in a cub. Imagine the cruise speed of a cub is maybe 70mph, while you are scooting around at 120mph or so. Also the cub's power off descent rate is probably double that of a 172.

If you are on base or final and he turned in front of you, causing a go-around then he likely did not see you (or did see you and was a jerk). However if you aren't yet established on final, and he is able to turn base/final and complete a touch n go without getting in your way there is nothing wrong with that.
 
I know it's legal, but I can't imagine flying NORDO by choice, anymore than I can imagine driving a car without a functioning horn. Sure, I can steer, and brake, but that horn just might save my butt when someone who isn't looking decides to pull out in front of me. And it's one thing if a plane isn't even equipped with a radio, but what's up with pilots who have a radio and who are too shy or too afraid to talk? Seriously? What are you doing up there in the first place???
 
bartmc said:
seeing them taxi out to the centerline while I was on short final was routine. So that left only one of us to see and avoid.
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I get that from pilots with radios too. They don't look before taxiing out.
 
Mary did a go-round yesterday (actually broke it off on downwind) when our "scenic flights" guy decided to show people the channel at 500 AGL, just off the approach end of the runway.

We saw him on ADS-B, getting closer, and closer, and closer... We still couldn't see him, but when the target merged with ours, just a few hundred feet below us, she broke it off. Finally spotted him, came around, and landed.

Stuff happens. It's part of the game. After a few decades you just expect it.
 
simtech said:
Sure okay NORDO is fine and legal but it doesn't give you the right to think everyone will know what your thinking or that everyone just yields to you especially if they don't see you in time.

I mean I'm on final and this guy didn't see me? Maybe not but poor see and avoid on his part to just cut me off. I always make sure no one is on final before I take off and before I turn final. I always call is saying final is clear. Small habit. No when turning final I should call downwind clear. Haha
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You call saying "final is clear"?? When do you call this and why? How do you know?
Never heard of this practice... :confused:
 
JoeSelch said:
You call saying "final is clear"?? When do you call this and why? How do you know?
Never heard of this practice... :confused:
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I don't call it over the radio. I speak it out loud to myself. I say it before I turn base to final to myself by looking. Same with taking off before I take the active. I look to make sure I don't see anyone on final. Nothing is said over the radio just my intercom to assure myself. That is all.:D
 
eman1200 said:
hate it hate it hate it hate it.

I know I won't make friends with this comment but I simply can't stand the "oh, it's ok not to have a radio" line of thinking.

I partake in a lot of hobbies/activities and I'm almost never vocal about much, but in aviation, to me, it is utterly unacceptable not to have a radio.
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I'm with you eman1200! Just seems ridiculous to me for all the regulations that have been slammed on this industry that a simple 2 way radio got passed over. My guess is that we have a different feeling since we are new pilots. Maybe when I am older and just plain tired of talking to people I will have a different outlook. :dunno: so we shall :yikes: keep the eyes open!!
 
simtech said:
I don't call it over the radio. I speak it out loud to myself. I say it before I turn base to final to myself by looking. Same with taking off before I take the active. I look to make sure I don't see anyone on final. Nothing is said over the radio just my intercom to assure myself. That is all.:D
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Got it. Thanks for the explanation ... Makes sense.
 
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart.

Handhelds are cheap.

If you're on/off a grass strip in the boonies, my position changes a little.
 
flyingmoose said:
You can hate it all you want, but hard to power a radio when you don't even have an electrical system.
Handheld? sure... if they want to.

It is ok to not have a radio.
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It might be legal - but it ain't OK.
 
All that said - here's a question for the reg-experts:

KLAM has a remark that reads "RADIO COMMUNICATION REQUIRED BEFORE ENTERING TFC PATTERN"

Does that make radio communication a legal obligation?
 
SkyHog said:
All that said - here's a question for the reg-experts:

KLAM has a remark that reads "RADIO COMMUNICATION REQUIRED BEFORE ENTERING TFC PATTERN"

Does that make radio communication a legal obligation?
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Nope, just don't fly a pattern.
 
JoeSelch said:
You call saying "final is clear"?? When do you call this and why? How do you know?
Never heard of this practice... :confused:
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Just a little student here, but I have been tought the following. Always!!!!

1. Before taxing onto the runway, call for anyone on base or final
2. Anounce departure runway and intentions, look both ways, then taxi
3. Announce each leg of the pattern
4. After landing and passing the hold line, announce clear of runway.

I realize that no radio is legal, but as a student can't understand why you would fly without one.
 
flyingmoose said:
So it "ain't ok" to fly a cub without a radio? Says who? Come on really?

Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk 2
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I think we have a generation of pilots now who only know procedures, who rely on technology, and who can't comprehend doing anything differently from the way they "were taught". Somehow generations of pilots flew NORDO and it all worked out. Now a single encounter with a NORDO aircraft has pilots' panties in a wad...newer pilots, anyway.
 
RoscoeT said:
I think we have a generation of pilots now who only know procedures, who rely on technology, and who can't comprehend doing anything differently from the way they "were taught". Somehow generations of pilots flew NORDO and it all worked out. Now a single encounter with a NORDO aircraft has pilots' panties in a wad...newer pilots, anyway.
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I agree!

Also, to the other poster, you can make 7 calls for just one trip around the pattern, but realize that if you're at a small airport with Unicom, there may be 3 other airports in range all on the same frequency. Add a few other pilots making all the same calls, now you've got frequency congestion, and that's not safe either.
Make your calls when and where you need to and don't tie up the freq with unnecessary calls and extra verbiage.

Doing what you were taught is fine, but, in aviation you'll find that sometimes you'll need to modify your procedures to fit the situation.

Another reason someone may not be transmitting as much as you would like is that by using a handheld all your power is from batteries, and that's a limited supply. Once you run the batteries down your done, period.
That's something you guys with electrical systems sometimes fail to remember.

When I'm out flying in my Champ I don't waste transmissions or words, I make them count. I tell you what you need to know and nothing more.
 
If you can't be bothered to pick up an ICOM and announce intentions around the pattern, I'd prefer you stay the hell away from me. I know what the regs are but the cemetery is full of people who followed the regs.

If you want me to believe that the NORDOs are the vigilant type of pilots, I'm not buying it. They're the ones we warn people about at the airport to be extra cautious of.

I'm seeing and avoiding, Like I mentioned earlier, I was cleared to take the runway and depart but spotted an engine out NORDO on a 45 degree final into a towered airport once. I'm looking for ya' trust me I am because I know you're not looking for me.

I appreciate the nostalgia of flying a WWII era plane, but buy a damn radio.
 
Stay the hell away from you? Seeing how you object to the behavior of another pilot why do you further insist he do as you wish?

You pilots who think the radio is how planes fly constitute a real menace to everything in the air, yes, the birds too.

I've flown NORDO planes many times. Your belief that a NORDO pilot ain't looking is quite incorrect. Yet, there is one part of your comments to which I agree, to paraphrase; act like every pilot is trying to kill you. Sometimes that pilot may be you.
 
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Richard said:
Stay the hell away from you? Seeing how you object to the behavior of another pilot why do you further insist he do as you wish?

You pilots who think the radio is how planes fly constitute a real menace to everything in the air, yes, the birds too.

I've flown NORDO planes many times. Your belief that a NORDO pilot ain't looking is quite incorrect. Yet, there is one part of your comments to which I agree, to paraphrase; act like every pilot is trying to kill you. Sometimes that pilot may be you.
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I recommend this one. Not the cheapest but best bang for your buck IMHO.

http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/10975

What's your excuse?
 
RoscoeT said:
I think we have a generation of pilots now who only know procedures, who rely on technology, and who can't comprehend doing anything differently from the way they "were taught". Somehow generations of pilots flew NORDO and it all worked out. Now a single encounter with a NORDO aircraft has pilots' panties in a wad...newer pilots, anyway.
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I'm a spine surgeon and I teach across the country as well as internationally, and I hear this a lot from older surgeons when new technology rolls out.
"Well, we have done it for years this way, so why change?"

Well, lets start with safer, better results, etc....

I shudder to think about having a spine surgery "the old way", but some old guys still do it with the same results we got in the 80's

Things may be legal, but that doesn't make it make sense
If using a radio can prevent one fatality/accident/confusion, why not do it? If your argument is "its been done like this for years..." that's a poor argument. Technology doesn't replace good judgement, but to not use it when its available when its as simple as a $200 entry makes little sense to me and clearly many others
 
Richard said:
I've flown NORDO planes many times. Your belief that a NORDO pilot ain't looking is quite incorrect.
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:no:. I've flown in the same pattern as NORDO planes several times- the pilots ranged from OK (joining the pattern with everybody else) to insane (doing a 45 to downwind OPPOSITE the wind and flow). While some NORDOs look out the window, I'd say in my experience the vast majority don't.
 
Really stupid in this day in age, not to have at least a hand held. They are cheap and with an exterior antenna work very well. I recently sold a rebuilt , trophy winning taylorcraft that had been in a fatal accident with a cub in the pattern in Collins ny. Some years ago. The t craft made it down , the cub did not,pilot killed. Neither had a radio. When the t craft was rebuilt, the builder installed a sportys Icom in a holder on the panel and an exterior antenna. It worked just fine. See and avoid is only part of the drill. Sometimes it isn't enough as mentioned above. In this day in age, to fly without a radio....and use it is really dumb! I've flown for 50 years and always used a radio as did all military pilots from WW2 on, commercial and private pilots also.
 
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RoscoeT said:
I think we have a generation of pilots now who only know procedures, who rely on technology, and who can't comprehend doing anything differently from the way they "were taught". Somehow generations of pilots flew NORDO and it all worked out. Now a single encounter with a NORDO aircraft has pilots' panties in a wad...newer pilots, anyway.
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If you want to call it that, my panties got in a wad not because he was NORDO but that fact he is not doing his part of see and avoid. Too me, him being NORDO would place a greater degree of responsibility. I can't guess what he is going to do.

So I'm turning final in my high wing and lose the runway in the turn and say NORDO dude, like he did cuts me off. But instead of being in front he don't see me and hits me while I'm turning. I guess I have no reason to be upset if I live, after all he is NORDO so it's all good. Been doing it for years.

It's not that us younger pilots need technology to fly, it's that the older guys can't embrace it. See its two way! But really a radio being new technology. C'mon.
 
bartmc said:
I'm with eman. Handhelds are 200 bucks. Cheap safety insurance. I have one in my Bo and have had 3 ocassions on which to use it.

We had plenty of NORDOs at my last airport, seeing them taxi out to the centerline while I was on short final was routine. So that left only one of us to see and avoid.

I actually had one do an emergency landing at a towered airport, NORDO. I was cleared to take the runway and saw him on a quasi final before the tower did. A radio would have been handy.
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That is totally unacceptable!! First thing I do before taking the runway is check final approach, then base, and last downwind to base.
NORDO or not, That guy should have his azz on a platter, for entering the runway with one on final.
 
And "see and avoid" means seeing and then avoiding.

Fact is, you don't always see traffic. Even when you know where to look(ATC traffic advisories), you sometimes just can't pick it out.

If a radio gives you a visual indicator in your brain of traffic relative to your position, who would be against that? Maybe the same guys who are anti-GPS.
 
bartmc said:
I recommend this one. Not the cheapest but best bang for your buck IMHO.

http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/10975

What's your excuse?
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Excuse for what, sir? I'm asking the questions, can I be in charge for a while? Thank you very much. (channeling R Lee Ermy in FMJ)

I already have a handheld. That is tangential to the real issue.

You must know of those radio cowboys who are just compelled to call out every rock and bush in the patt. Or, the yahoo making wildly inaccurate position reports. Look kids, a radio doesn't necessarily add to safety of flight, it may even degrade safety.

Who here when hearing a position report in the patt will concentrate their attention to that perceived point of space and time? Meanwhile, your head swivel grinds to a halt as you burn holes looking for that plane. Only then do you see it out of the corner of your eye at a place different than what you expected.

Like practicing night landings with no landing light maybe y'all should get comfortable flying the patt with no radio. A radio is a tool but it won't cover the deficiency of the nut on the mic.

Once, I was cut off while on base ready to turn final. It was a Falcon 10. His initial call was 35 out from that non-towered field. I had just powered up for the go on a T&G when he made that call. By the time I was base to turn final I noticed him on 3 mile final. I just flowed with it, flew my pattern and went around. At first I was a bit miffed but then realized it was another training opportunity. Change in attitude I guess.

I've been intruded upon lots of times. A couple times I was the culprit. Don't you train for the unexpected?
 
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