First Plane Purchase/Leaseback

TexasAdam

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TexasAdam
Hi Folks!

I'm a post-solo student pilot with a little over 15 hours. I'm on track to finish my PPL right at 40 hours, hopefully just before Thanksgiving. I want to go on to earn my instrument rating in the spring, and am seriously considering purchasing a plane to train in. I'd also like to use the plane for some minor XC touring (probably less than 300 nm) with the wife (so a 2-seater is fine). Finally, I'm interested in exploring leaseback opportunities in order to help defray the cost of ownership. Ideally I'd spend less than $50 K, but I'm willing to flex all the way up to $100 K for a plane that can be easily rented out.


I'm looking for any general insight or feedback on:

1 - Specific plane recommendations. I'm training in a 172 but I'm far from married to it. Would love to get an RV although I'm not sure how IFR-certification works in home-builts. I've also found a Socata Trinidad for $70 K that seems like an absolute steal (although it is old). In other words, I'm open to a lot, and would look favorably on recommendations that prioritize fuel efficiency and planes that are fun to fly (as opposed to fast, comfortable, beautiful, etc.)

2 - Engine times. I've read that engine overhauls don't add enough value to the plane to cover the cost of the overhaul. Is this true? As a blanket statement? Are there brands/models of engines for which this isn't true?

3 - General thoughts on leasebacks. I've heard plenty of horror stories, from trashed planes, to absurdly high maintenance bills, to the plane being inaccessible to the owner. It seems that being actively involved in the management of the plane can mitigate a lot of this in addition to negotiating a good deal. Do people typically shop around for leasebacks? Is it standard (or even possible) to get a guaranteed number of rental hours per month? Can you buy fuel in bulk from FBOs to lower the per-hour cost? I'm happy to be very involved in managing the plane (I love aviation!) and frankly, if there's so much demand that I can't fly the plane, let's just say I'll get over that.

Any other general thoughts on how to approach this (or find folks to help me with the process) would be awesome.

Thanks!
adam
 
Big thing about leasebacks, is that if you really want them to be cost effective and come close to breaking even or have any chance in hell of making money, then you need to go with a common/non-exotic type like a 172 or PA28. To be worth it, the airplane needs to fly alot and the local demand is probably not going to be high enough.

I would suspect that something like a Trinidad or an RV (I'm not sure if it is even legal to lease an experimental/amateur built aircraft) will cost you more to do a leaseback than if you just operated the plane on your own.
 
I don't buy personal cars to rent them to others when I'm not driving them. They'll come back with unimaginable things done to them.

Unless you have always wanted to be in the rental business, buy something you want to fly for years.

If you do leasebacks, run it strictly as a business and run the numbers. It's a business.

Leasebacks are the worst of both worlds in my opinion.

You buy something to enjoy and watch renters beat the crap out of it while you pay for the maintenance. And you have to schedule the airplane like you're a renter.

The keys to the hangar and airplane are on my keyring and if I want to go fly I toss a quick e-mail from my phone to the other two co-owners and drive to the airport.

Scheduling conflicts are virtually non-existent and planned well in advance for trips, etc.

If I want something fixed, I say so and we fix it.

Nope, no leasebacks for me, thanks.
 
I would suspect that something like a Trinidad or an RV (I'm not sure if it is even legal to lease an experimental/amateur built aircraft) will cost you more to do a leaseback than if you just operated the plane on your own.

IIRC need a waiver to operate an experimental for hire, I'd imagine that even if legal to do the school would shy away.

If you want to lease back talk to the school first. Find out what they need/want. It would be bad to buy a plane expecting it to cover some of it's costs and have local schools not be interested in it.

As far as horror stories it depends, on the school, on your plane, and on YOU.

We have had owners run away from us screaming when the contract expired and others who are beyond thrilled with the arrangement.
 
2 - Engine times. I've read that engine overhauls don't add enough value to the plane to cover the cost of the overhaul. Is this true? As a blanket statement? Are there brands/models of engines for which this isn't true?
Here's the thing about overhauls....a recent overhaul will certainly increase the value of the aircraft, but you probably won't be able to recover the cost of the overhaul.....that is why so many airplanes are offered for sale at discounted prices with engines at or over TBO. Generally, you will probably do better financially to buy an airplane with a low-time engine than to buy a timed out one and overhaul it yourself.

If you are buying a plane for just yourself, I'd even consider a mid-time engine depending on how many hours per year you really expect to fly it. But if you are going to leaseback with any hope of making money, you really want a low-time engine because it is going to reach TBO a heck of a lot faster with other people using it regularly.

As far as types of engines that are going to be more expensive to overhaul.....6 cylinder engines (the kind found on some older 172s) will cost more to overhaul than 4 bangers and turbos will cost more to overhaul as a general rule of thumb.

Just my two cents...
 
If you do leasebacks, run it strictly as a business and run the numbers. It's a business.
I'd agree with that. You really need to treat it as a business. If you just want to defray the cost of ownership, I'd say you would be happier finding one or more fellow pilots that you get along with to form a partnership than dealing with a leaseback.
 
Welcome to PoA Adam! Where in Texas is ya?
 
Welcome to PoA! I'd second what has been said about leasebacks:
- check with the schools first
- plan to get a common model, e.g. 152, 172, or Cherokee
- run it like a business

You may find that a partnership is more to your liking. There are a number of sources of potential partners, including the bulletin boards at you local airports and the service that AOPA bought last year for finding partners (http://www.aopa.org/aircraftpartnership/).

Or you might find that an equity club suits you well. Depending on how it's set up, you can have both more partners and more planes available. flying geese wad (That's what the iPad did to "flyingcheesehead", Kent!) can tell you about some of his favorite clubs!
 
Thanks for all the input (and warm welcome), folks!

I'm definitely more in the "run it as a business" camp as opposed to the "maybe I can get some folks to pay for my own personal airplane" one so it sounds like some calls to all the schools and FBOs in the area (Austin) is in my future.

I've looked into some partnerships (although only online) but the problem is that I might be moving in the next 9-12 months and I'm not sure that it would be easy to sell a partnership position with that timeframe. With a 100% stake, however, I can either leave the plane on leaseback and never use it myself (since I'm gone) or take the plane with me if the leaseback isn't working how I'd like and figure it out from there. That being said, once I'm in a more permanent location, then I think a partnership for personal flying would be perfect.

Thanks again!
 
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I have no experience with leasebacks whatsoever, but the one guy I know who tried it says it doesnt work out too well for the owner. They fly the crap out of it, and come to you to pay for things that break, which happen more often with the amount it flies.
 
A leaseback is just a rental to everyone but the owner. Keep that in mind.

And the owner needs to consider that the the plane is a rental as well.
That means he gets in line with (or behind) everybody else to fly it.
Leasebacks work if you operate them as a business. They are doomed to failure if you think it's just going to get someone else to defray operating costs of your personal airplane.

Been there on both sides of the business. I've leased my plane and I've been on the management side of a flying club chasing leasebacks.

The key is to get the plane to fly enough to offset the fixed costs. The key to that is AVAILABILITY which means having the maintenance well in hand (another monetary issue). If you're plane is the one that's down for maintenance or off because the owner took it for a two week trip, that's the one that people won't be even trying to reserve anymore (and often the FBO or club will not be pushing).

The 172 is an easier go than the Socata.
 
I worked the leaseback numbers for my airplane, and what I came up with is between insurance (which is higher for leasebacks) and all the other costs, I would break even while my airplane suffered lots of abuse. I bought it from a fellow who could no longer afford to lease it back because of the insurance.
 
Reprinted by permission of the author, the (in)famous Jason "Whirlwind" Hegel...

Captain Jason’s Leaseback Advice:

1. Leasebacks are a business, always treat them like one. Never get emotionally attached to a leaseback airplane, it will get abused just like a rental car does, and you don't go seeking those out when you buy a used car, do you? Put leaseback aircraft in corporations, run their books separately, have a separate tax return for the aircraft each year, etc. Talk to your CPA and lawyer, make sure you understand both the legal and tax issues.

2. You can make a lot of money with a leaseback. You can lose a lot of money with a leaseback. Many of the factors of making/losing money are completely outside of your control. If your goal in a leaseback is to have someone else pay for your personal airplane, you probably are not going to be happy with the result. If your goal is to defer the cost of your own flying, get your ratings, and perhaps make some money on the side, you can do well if you pick the right FBO/flight school to do business with.

3. If you leaseback an aircraft to an honest FBO, you have a chance to do well. If you leaseback an aircraft to a crook, you have no chance at all. Get to know with whom you are doing business. Ask around the airport, talk to the other owners, etc. Be careful of any FBO that pushes you to get into this too quickly. The best will be honest and upfront about the risks and will caution you to avoid it if you have doubts. Talk to other owners at the FBO, find out how they have been treated.

4. You must run the numbers from a realistic viewpoint, remember this is a business. Take what you're paid each hour by the FBO and subtract the per hour costs such as fuel and maintenance reserves (if you don’t, that $15,000 engine is going to surprise you). That figure is your actual hourly income (the rest does not exist for this calculation) Take the monthly fixed costs and divide them by that "true" per hour income. That is the number of hours the aircraft must fly each month to break even. The monthly fixed costs must include insurance, tie-down, and the "payment", even if there is no payment on the aircraft. The cash you might pay for an aircraft has value, if you don't include it in the monthly fixed costs, you're letting the FBO use your money for free. So add in what the payment would be if you had one.

5. You're still a renter, you just rent one specific aircraft for a reduced rate, but you're still a renter and must schedule your flights along with everyone else. Do you have the right to bump paying customers? If so, how much notice must you give? If you are inclined to "bump" paying customers for your own flying very often, you're probably a poor leaseback candidate. You'll upset those customers and you'll be hurting your own income stream. Find out about renting other airplanes at the FBO for a discounted rate if your plane is down, or otherwise busy. Everything in a leaseback is negotiable, so ask!

6. The standard leaseback agreement is the basic 80/20 plan. You get 80% of the per hour rental rate, the FBO gets 20%. Out of your 80% you pay fuel, insurance, tie-down, maintenance, and the "payment" for the aircraft (again, this has nothing to do with actually having a bank loan or not, it is the monthly value of the money invested into the airplane). Some FBOs do leasebacks differently, and if you run across one of them, be really sure of what they are offering before you sign on the dotted line.

7. FBOs like leasebacks because it removes all the risk from them. They get 20% of the rental rate, yet do not have to own or maintain a fleet of airplanes (and sometimes they make money off the maintenance). You absorb all that risk. In exchange for that risk, you have the chance to make some money, and you'll be able to fly for about half the price of renting (or less).

8. The best leaseback deals are on aircraft that fly a lot of hours each month. A Cessna 172 that flies 80 hours a month will almost always make money. A Piper Arrow that flies 20 hours a month will almost always lose money. The breakeven point on most single engine airplanes is around 50 hours and the leaseback becomes really worth doing from a profit perspective at 65 hours. I know of a case where a Piper Arrow was leased to a flight school and it flew 60 hours over 8 months. The owner lost a lot of money in insurance and maintenance. I also know of a case where a Cessna 172 was leased to a flight school and it flew an average of 87.2 hours a month over a 12-month period, the owner made a fair amount of money that year.

9. Don’t put a brand new airplane on leaseback, they lose too much value the first few years and are very quickly not new anymore when on a rental line. An example is the 1999 172SP I bought. I paid $124,000 for it with a fresh engine installed. It would cost about $209,000 to buy that plane new, in its current configuration (in 2004). Since even a new plane looks used very quickly on a rental line, I saved $80,000 (or about 1/3 the price) in exchange for having 2,200 hours already on the airframe. Those hours do not affect the rental rate. There is one exception to this rule however, and that is the new 50% bonus tax deduction signed into law by President Bush. If you have a need for a $150,000 tax deduction this year, buying a brand new 172SP for $209,000 does make sense, because of the unusual tax benefits offered by the new law.

10. Only do a leaseback if you can afford to own the airplane without the leaseback. Used aircraft can be expensive the first few months you own them. Don't expect to take anything home the first six months. People who already have money seem to do well with leasebacks. Those who really cannot afford an airplane in the first place seem to do poorly. These are generalizations of course, but there is an old saw that says it takes money to make money.

11. Buy the right aircraft, the right way. You can do everything else right, but if you buy the wrong aircraft or pay too much, you'll lose every time. This doesn't mean pick a Cessna 172 over a Piper Warrior, this means pick the right Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior. Some airplanes just shouldn't be leased back. A Mooney or Bonanza are good examples. Very old airplanes often make poor leasebacks as well. The only airplane older than about 25 years I'd leaseback would be a Cessna 150. You want something reliable with a known history. Avoid the very high time and very low time airplanes. Avoid an airplane that hasn’t flown much recently. An airplane that has had 500 hours put on it in the past 10 years will have a lot of things break when the flight school puts 500 hours on it in 6 months. I’ve seen this happen to others and it happened to me with my 172N.

12. You must sometimes spend money to make money. People want to rent airplanes with nice interiors and good panels. If the per hour rental rate is equal, would you rather fly in a Cessna 172 with ARC radios and no GPS, or a full Garmin panel? The new panel and a new interior might add 20% to the price of the airplane but double your monthly profit.

13. Look over the past two years records of similar airplanes at the FBO you’re looking at doing business with. Not just the total hours flown, but how much has been spent on maintenance and how much total income there was after all costs. There is no more honest way to see what to expect than to look at the real world figures from existing aircraft on the FBOs rental line. Do not leaseback to anyone who won't show you the records on the existing airplanes and introduce you to the other aircraft owners.

14. Think long and hard about why you're doing this. Many people get into leasebacks for all the wrong reasons, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. A leaseback can make sense for some people, it can be a disaster for others. It generally isn't a good way to go about having someone else pay for your own personal airplane, since it will wear faster and not be cared for as well as if it were your own. In addition, you're limited in what you can do with it, given that you still have to schedule it and can’t take it very far without it costing you a lot in lost income. It can however provide you with your ratings, some money, and some low cost flying if managed well.

15. To sum it up, a leaseback is often used to reduce the cost of flying, sometimes it is used to make money, sometimes it is used as a tax shelter (consult your tax advisor on this one). The months I did a lot of personal flying, I tended to break even, and have lost money a few months, but then if you consider what my flying would have cost otherwise, I came out way ahead. If you can't afford to own regardless of the leaseback income, consider that you're making a serious commitment and while it is very easy to buy a plane, it can be hard to sell one.

For the record, I had three aircraft on leaseback with two different flight schools at Addison. A 1977 Cessna 172N, a 1999 Cessna 172SP, and a 1997 Schweizer 300CB helicopter. I did well with the older 172 and the helicopter, the 172SP mostly broke even, but I did fly it about 100 hours personally without paying a dime, so it wasn’t too bad. I earned my commercial and CFI license in both airplanes and helicopters, flew almost 500 personal hours between all the aircraft, and came out $36,000 ahead at the end of the day. I sold them once I was done flight instructing, and have since bought a Piper Twin Comanche for my personal use. I considered leasing it back, but choose not to because I want it available to fly whenever I want to go, one thing that isn’t possible with a leaseback.
 
Leasebacks:

DON'T

Been there, done that, got the bills to prove it. Break even...maybe, just slightly maybe.
 
I've done three leasebacks. I wish I could take back every one of them.

Analyze them all you want. The problem is, you have to make up the numbers (or trust made-up numbers from the FBO) and so you don't know what you'll get until you already have it. If you want a good indication of how a particular type of airplane will work in leaseback at your airport, just track the existing rental fleet. My experience is that leaseback planes last 1 to 2 years in the rental pool. After that point, the owners have realized it's a lousy deal and sold the airplane or taken it out of rental. And THAT, to my mind, speaks volumes because it happens over and over and over. Yes, there are exceptions. But by and large the huge turnover rate should tell you something.
 
I've done three leasebacks. I wish I could take back every one of them.
I did one, and it worked for me. But I spent the time, money (lawyers ain't cheap), and effort to construct a lease contract that was good for me as well as the lessee based on proper "due diligence" and solid financial estimates. OTOH, my experience suggests most lessors don't do that, and end up with a "canned" deal stacked in lessee's favor, and that will really spoil your day (and your bank account).
 
My suggestion would be to find a plane that you can afford to own by yourself, and just keep it that way. You can likely find some individuals who will be interested in renting it from you, and you might be able to make a favorable arrangement that way. For example, I used to rent a Mooney M20F from the people who owned it. The price was lower than I could expect to rent a similar plane from, they knew I treated the plane well, and it worked really well for everybody.

Trinidads are nice planes, definitely feel a lot more modern. In your price range, I would also look at a Comanche, Bonanza, and Mooney.

If you're interested in experimentals, no reason not to go look at them. I remember seeing one person who bought a Lancair 360 as his first plane (200 kts @ 10 gph - nice) after finishing up his private, and doing his instrument in it. It is a very unforgiving plane, so it requires training and discipline. But it can be done. There are lots of IFR-certified experimentals out there, and if you purchase correctly, you can find one that's turn-key ready to go.
 
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