First plane: build hours first vs get your last plane ???

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4RNB

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4RNB
So I see a couple of themes that are a bit contradictory. I'd like your thoughts to shape mine.

I see some comments that the first plane one buys should be the last plane you buy. If spending lots of money, pay up for your ideal plane and enjoy it seems to be what this is about. In a way this makes sense, easier financially if in a quality partnership?

The other way of thinking is stick with something slower, simpler, not complex. Reason I guess is earn your wings, keep insurance cheaper, stay alive, have the checklists be easier.

Where do you stand on this and why?
Thank you.
 
Option 1. I think it depends on your age, I didn’t start flying until after I retired, so I don’t have time to do option 2.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Option 1. I think it depends on your age, I didn’t start flying until after I retired, so I don’t have time to do option 2.
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Conversely, if you are at the beginning of your flying journey and somewhere near the beginning or at least middle of flying life, get what appeals to your desires and capabilities now, then move up or sideways or whatever as your tastes develop.

After getting my PP SEL, I dropped it all to get my PP Glider and went thru owning 2 sailplanes. Then a tail dragging Maule. Then a home built RV10 with every bell and whistle that will fit. It will probably be my last aircraft, except perhaps for this supercool DLG I just got.


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I think a lot of people who are getting or have just gotten their PPL invent what their mission will be. 99% if time with 5 people going 1000nm at night over the rockies, right? The reality is 90% of the time most people are solo or solo+1. Hence, the postpone your last plane logic.
 
Depends on what your forever plane is. If it’s a 172, yeah, get it now. If it’s a King Air, maybe you should work your way up to it.

To help you I think we need to know more about your mission and the stage you are in flight training.
 
I don't believe in the "buy your last plane first" philosophy. Ownership takes time to learn. It was very helpful for me to learn the ropes on an economical "trainer" that didn't bankrupt me. Now I have upgraded to a gas guzzler (relatively speaking) but I have a few years of ownership under my belt and know what to expect.
 
There's no hard and fast rule, or "best" way to do this with personal airplanes.

Some people keep the same house for life, and some don't. Some people keep the same boat for life, and some don't. Some people keep the same spouse for life, and some don't...
 
One of the things I'd "do over if I had it all to do again" would have been to buy a plane earlier. I was actually close to buying a fixed gear cardinal in 1983 or so. That probably could have held me for a good long time. When Margy wanted to learn to fly, I should have bought a Cherokee or Skyhawk or something, and we'd still have come out ahead. It was 14 years until I finally got around to buying the Navion.

Of course, I also figure that it would have been a better deal if I'd sent Margy to A&P school rather than getting her masters. We'd probably had made back the money on our own maintenance :)
 
Stan Cooper said:
Option 2. Keep it simple to start, then incrementally step up to higher performance and complex.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC5lSy-qDNK/?igshid=14k1v6py947m4
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Which is why a smart instructor will not do touch and goes in a complex plane, especially with an inexperienced pilot. I assume that's why he commanded flaps up and why the student was spring-loaded for gear up. Otherwise, the conventional wisdom is to not mess with the aircraft configuration until you're clear of the runway.
 
Isn't there a squat switch to keep that from happening? Or still flying and the switch not engaged yet?
 
bflynn said:
Isn't there a squat switch to keep that from happening? Or still flying and the switch not engaged yet?
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If you've just touched down or are bouncing, there may not be enough weight on the wheels to compress the strut enough to trigger the switch. Worse, since they are simply wired together rather than being connected to some sort of logic circuit, if you raise the gear as soon as the switch opens the gear will come up.

The Navion doesn't have one (though I've seen exactly one over the years with one retrofitted).
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I don't believe in the "buy your last plane first" philosophy. Ownership takes time to learn. It was very helpful for me to learn the ropes on an economical "trainer" that didn't bankrupt me. Now I have upgraded to a gas guzzler (relatively speaking) but I have a few years of ownership under my belt and know what to expect.
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this!!!!

I was on a club 10 years so had no first hand touching of maintenance but I bought a Cessna 140 a couple years ago... I remember being so intimidated by it when I got it in terms of its mechanics as if never in cowled a plane. She’s almost the model T of airplanes but that’s been great as the maintenance has been easy to learn, and once bit off not intimidating...

I do all my own maintenance that’s allowed, from my IA seeing that he’s now willing to supervise me doing other tasks, and I feel very comfortable around her, I know her now, no maintenance or annual is done now without me looking it all over uncowled... I’m a better airplane owner for not having started in something complex and may have not learned due to intimidation and then instead of knowing every inch of my metal maiden I’d just haul it in for every skwauk.... I still may need to depending- but now I can look it over n get an idea what needs to be done to point my IA in the right dire toon instead of handing him a blank slate to figure out...
 
You may also find that trainer plane is plenty! Rarely do I need 4 seats so the 140 probably is a forever plane for me and I use the club 180hp 172 if I need more. Two planes both great at their mission for $25k out of pocket purchase... not bad..
 
flyingron said:
If you've just touched down or are bouncing, there may not be enough weight on the wheels to compress the strut enough to trigger the switch. Worse, since they are simply wired together rather than being connected to some sort of logic circuit, if you raise the gear as soon as the switch opens the gear will come up.

The Navion doesn't have one (though I've seen exactly one over the years with one retrofitted).
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My plane's Landing Gear switch is wired such that it won't retract until 100 kts. That video was painful to watch.
 
Huckster79 said:
You may also find that trainer plane is plenty! Rarely do I need 4 seats so the 140 probably is a forever plane for me and I use the club 180hp 172 if I need more. Two planes both great at their mission for $25k out of pocket purchase... not bad..
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:yeahthat:
My 2-place LSA meets my mission requirements for 95% of the flying I do, and it is my forever plane. If I need to go faster or carry more passengers I'll rent from the local FBO where I had my last flight review in November.
 
Huckster79 said:
Rarely do I need 4 seats so the 140 probably is a forever plane for me and I use the club 180hp 172 if I need more.
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I'm in a similar position with the 140A+club 182. I sometimes wonder if an antique was a good choice for a first plane, but it sure has been educational.
 
4RNB said:
So I see a couple of themes that are a bit contradictory. I'd like your thoughts to shape mine.

I see some comments that the first plane one buys should be the last plane you buy. If spending lots of money, pay up for your ideal plane and enjoy it seems to be what this is about. In a way this makes sense, easier financially if in a quality partnership?

The other way of thinking is stick with something slower, simpler, not complex. Reason I guess is earn your wings, keep insurance cheaper, stay alive, have the checklists be easier.

Where do you stand on this and why?
Thank you.
Click to expand...
I'm in the camp of buying the plane you really want first and get as much experience in that as you can as opposed to dealing with the transition and relearning a skills set. also, planes do not make the best investments so selling a plane down the road for something you really want could be a pain

Grain of salt:
-if your final plane you really want is something like an aerostar, then that is generally not an airplane you want to get your multi on and start with little experience..

But if you *really want a Saratoga, 182, 210, etc then just by and learn on that
 
Cogito said:
My plane's Landing Gear switch is wired such that it won't retract until 100 kts. That video was painful to watch.
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That's a good solution as well. The problem with the Navion isn't having a switch (I fact I had one), but what to connect it to. The gear is entirely a combination of mechanical cables and hydraulic valves. The one anti-retract mod I saw for it was a solenoid that pushes against the secondary latch (you need to slide that to the left with your pinky while trying to move the handle out and up.
 
Navions are really cool. Love their look


This guy built a beautiful plane, but if I'm being honest, I kind of wish he hadn't gone for the "Cessna flight school / base model Cirrus" paint scheme. Such a beautiful plane with such a boring paint job. But his money his plane! Panel looks awesome, and nice to see someone so dedicated to their plane
 
Stan Cooper said:
:yeahthat:
My 2-place LSA meets my mission requirements for 95% of the flying I do, and it is my forever plane. If I need to go faster or carry more passengers I'll rent from the local FBO where I had my last flight review in November.
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The problem with renting is it doesn’t work so well if you use the plane for real cross country trips. So if you want to spend 3 weeks flying around the country, you’ll be paying the hobbs hours but also the minimum hours. If the minimum is 4 hrs/day, you’ll be paying for 84 hours, which for a 172 will be close to $12,000. Even if you only put 10 hours on the hobbs meter.
That extra 5% is going to cost you.
If I wasn’t using my plane for cross country trips and just the occasional hamburger run, I would just rent. If you need to spend less money for some reason, just stop flying. If you own, then hangar, insurance, some maintenance expenses continue even if you don’t fly.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
The problem with renting is it doesn’t work so well if you use the plane for real cross country trips. So if you want to spend 3 weeks flying around the country, you’ll be paying the hobbs hours but also the minimum hours. If the minimum is 4 hrs/day, you’ll be paying for 84 hours, which for a 172 will be close to $12,000. Even if you only put 10 hours on the hobbs meter.
That extra 5% is going to cost you.
If I wasn’t using my plane for cross country trips and just the occasional hamburger run, I would just rent. If you need to spend less money for some reason, just stop flying. If you own, then hangar, insurance, some maintenance expenses continue even if you don’t fly.
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I completely agree. My cross-country flights are always solo and my LSA works well for them. On rare occasions when I have family or friends visiting from out of state I'll rent a 172 or 182 to take them on "bay tours" around the wine country and the San Francisco Bay Area as far south as Monterey and as far east as Lake Tahoe and Yosemite. It's pretty easy to schedule a rental for a day with a minimum of three hours Hobbs time.
 
I'm so glad I bought a fast complex aircraft. If I really want to putter around the patch I can pull the throttle and do that. But when I want to go somewhere I love the fact that I can push the throttle in and really move.
 
I didn't know how much plane I would eventually want or afford when I was young and got my license, I just knew I didn't want to rent. It's a PITA if you ever want to travel in a plane. BTDT. So I went shopping for a simple XC-capable 2- or 4-place. I looked at a bunch of C-172s, PA28-140s, and even a Beech A23/24 that was a tax default sale. In the end I wound up with a nice little AA-1A with a low time engine and tired paint that was otherwise in great shape for the grand sum of $6800. Way cheaper than the new car I bought around that time. I put 400 hours on that plane learning what I did and didn't need to fly cross-country with a passenger and some luggage, and learning that I really needed an IFR rating to do any practical regional travel. I sold the AA-1A for $8000 (it's still flying with a fresh coat of paint) and bought an AA-5 with a mid-time engine at a great price, with IFR avionics. Trained for IFR in that and still own it today. And that's as much plane as I need for what I typically do, which is regional travel (up to 500 nm). Longer trips are still possible, and I've done a share of those (900 nm or so one way), but for regional travel, it's great.

Short version: there is value in owning something simpler at first and flying the heck out of it to learn what you really need and can afford long term. I knew more about plane ownership after owning a stone-simple one for 4 years.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Depends on what your forever plane is. If it’s a 172, yeah, get it now. If it’s a King Air, maybe you should work your way up to it.

To help you I think we need to know more about your mission and the stage you are in flight training.
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Thanks everyone for responses.

Where am I at in training? At the dream big stage. Doing online ground school. I've found it hard to find CFI. Found a club with CFI but due to weight the club plane and that CFI won't work. Found a school with 7 or so 172s and a few other planes, went to the school. There were about 10 people in the building, all had uniforms on, nobody really able or willing to talk to me, handed me a pamphlet, said I had to contact the email address to apply? Email address did not work, figured out the right one, no response. I guess the owner does not value the "Always Be Closing" style of sales. Organized school near me uses Diamonds, I don't fit well enough to put any more time in them. I am hoping to build rapport today with an old timer that teaches a few students a year in a 172. I will consider supplementing at another school an hour plus away that uses 172's. Another school has a plane that might fit me but it has not returned from the shop. I drove to the location, could not find the place, called, they hung up on me.

Mission? Clearly I am too green to know this well. Fun, freedom. See family 400 nm away and further. Fast would be nice. Entertain a few guests but this is low on the list of needs. I do not know of many rentals in the area. Have a potential partner who has owned an out of state plane for 2 years and has not soloed yet... Partner seems flexible, prior business dealings on verbal agreements have gone well. When I window shop I think a 25K fixer or smaller is not gonna cut it. Getting near 100K it seems a lot of plane can be bought, need to learn a lot. Function wise I think a 182 is a good place to start though 210s also appealing. Local 182 RG seems nice. Fuel sipping? I am not sure I would worry about fuel but don't want to be foolish. Friend/partner has a sipper that he would rent for local puddle jumping. I can pay cash for nearly anything but don't want to cash out investments yet. Mentally would like to keep my monthly expense to <1k (hangar and payment) be it sole ownership or partnership. Financial future looks good but don't think I would really move much beyond single prop.

First plane could easily be complex with retractable gear though.
 
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