First Multi Flight Today!

[ARFlyer]

So I finally got to do my first actual multi training flight this afternoon. The aircraft have both been broken down lately so I've been waiting around...

Our school leases two PA-30 Twin Commache.

The flight today was a x/c to a nearby airport to shoot an ILS to a circling landing and back. Man was I freaking behind the aircraft the whole time. My first landing was a 1500' float because I was fast and high. Almost fell out of the sky because I'm not use to keeping a lot of power in on landing. The trim had me confused as it's one of those ceiling cranks. Found that the right throttle and prop have to be higher then the left to be at the same setting. Also I'm not use to how flat the approach and flare can be. I have to much Maule time it's affecting me man....

Oh who ever designed the flap, stall, and fuel system on this aircraft was smoking something.

It's different to feel like a new student pilot again.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Congrats enjoy the Twinkie. I did my original ME in a PA30 at PVD. Great airplane. I was lucky - had electric trim on the yoke so I didn't have to mess with the overhead crank much.

 

[ARFlyer]

Congrats enjoy the Twinkie. I did my original ME in a PA30 at PVD. Great airplane. I was lucky - had electric trim on the yoke so I didn't have to mess with the overhead crank much.

We also have electric trim but I was so overwhelmed that I resorted to the crank. I'll be sure to use it next time.

 

[Fearless Tower]

We also have electric trim but I was so overwhelmed that I resorted to the crank. I'll be sure to use it next time.

I kind of know how you feel. I had something like around 100 hrs and almost all in a PA28 and 172 when I had my first flight in a PA30. I too felt seriously behind at first and we weren't even going full speed!

 

[ARFlyer]

I kind of know how you feel. I had something like around 100 hrs and almost all in a PA28 and 172 when I had my first flight in a PA30. I too felt seriously behind at first and we weren't even going full speed!

I have roughly 280 hours in the Maule and 110 hours in the PA28.

 

[FastEddieB]

Almost fell out of the sky because I'm not use to keeping a lot of power in on landing.

Is it really necessary to carry a lot of power on landing?

Most if my twin time was Apaches and Aztecs, but I recall landing with the throttles back with no issues.

 

[ARFlyer]

Is it really necessary to carry a lot of power on landing?

Most if my twin time was Apaches and Aztecs, but I recall landing with the throttles back with no issues.

From what I've gathered today you need to keep about 16" on approach. My MEI said it you pull it back to 10" it will sink badly. But this is relative to me. I sometimes have to do idle approaches in Maule. So carrying in power is a relatively new thing to me.

 

[Ted]

You will eventually pull the power back to idle, but usually when you're right over the runway. 15"-20" on final depending on the plane is pretty typical. In the 310 it's usually 15".

Of course, I've been known to do brick approaches at idle.

Congratulations on your first twin flight! Your wallet will never be the same.

 

[Henning]

We also have electric trim but I was so overwhelmed that I resorted to the crank. I'll be sure to use it next time.

In a Comanche with electric trim I just keep rolling in the trim through the flair touching down with full trim. It makes for really slick landings in a Comanche, slick enough to **** off their owners.

 

[Ted]

In a Comanche with electric trim I just keep rolling in the trim through the flair touching down with full trim. It makes for really slick landings in a Comanche, slick enough to **** off their owners.

Works well in the Aztec, too.

 

[FastEddieB]

I thought you meant carrying power through the landing.

16" or whatever your instructor wants is fine on approach.

I just remember coming smoothly back to idle in the roundout and landing pretty much power off.

 

[Velocity173]

Congrats. I should do my first multi training flight next month in a Twin Star. Been waiting 6 months to get my GI Bill approval letter but I'm finally ready to start training.

 

[weilke]

My first landing was a 1500' float because I was fast and high. Almost fell out of the sky because I'm not use to keeping a lot of power in on landing.

'a lot' of power may explain the float. It helps to have 'a little' power in the PA30, but 'a lot' is definitely too much .

The trim had me confused as it's one of those ceiling cranks.

You will learn to love it, a lot easier to be quantitative than the Cessna or Beech wheel. Count the turns you need for certain steps, e.g. dropping the gear, changing flap settings or transitioning to full power for a go-around / missed.

Found that the right throttle and prop have to be higher then the left to be at the same setting.

The options are to put up with it or to spend man-hours trying to get them to look cosmetically more pleasing.

Oh who ever designed the flap, stall, and fuel system on this aircraft was smoking something.

What is wrong with the fuel system. 4 tanks, 2 per engine, to and land on the mains.

It's different to feel like a new student pilot again.

My twin lessons left me with back and neck pain, I was so tense from anticipating the constant engine failures that I would land completely worn out.

 

[Henning]

I thought you meant carrying power through the landing.

16" or whatever your instructor wants is fine on approach.

I just remember coming smoothly back to idle in the roundout and landing pretty much power off.

Yeah, unless you're driving onto a carrier, power should be off to touch down lol, although the moment before is fair game for anything.

 

[weilke]

If you haven't flown a PA24/30 before, just remember that 'rubber is cheaper than rivets'. It's not a Bonanza, it won't allow the amateur to shine.

 

[ARFlyer]

I thought you meant carrying power through the landing.

16" or whatever your instructor wants is fine on approach.

I just remember coming smoothly back to idle in the roundout and landing pretty much power off.

I might have worded it oddly, my mistake. Yes, on round out I pull it back to idle and just let the plane sit down on the runway. I think most of the issue today was coming in to fast over the fence.

 

[Henning]

I might have worded it oddly, my mistake. Yes, on round out I pull it back to idle and just let the plane sit down on the runway. I think most of the issue today was coming in to fast over the fence.

That is almost always the problem in a bad landing/landing incident/accident, too much speed to the runway.

 

[frfly172]

Did my twin training in a duchess,then I purchased a Travelair. Can still remember the feeling of the acceleration at takeoff ,in the twin. Good luck your going to love the twin experience.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Congrats. I should do my first multi training flight next month in a Twin Star. Been waiting 6 months to get my GI Bill approval letter but I'm finally ready to start training.

Waiting 6 months for GI Bill approval?

Damn, I need to keep that in mind.

 

[ARFlyer]

You will learn to love it, a lot easier to be quantitative than the Cessna or Beech wheel. Count the turns you need for certain steps, e.g. dropping the gear, changing flap settings or transitioning to full power for a go-around / missed.

The options are to put up with it or to spend man-hours trying to get them to look cosmetically more pleasing.

My twin lessons left me with back and neck pain, I was so tense from anticipating the constant engine failures that I would land completely worn out.

I hope so. I've actually gotten use to the wheel. I can trim it to what the student needs without them knowing they needed it. Solves the death grip syndrome. "Dude use trim" ....nothing.... "Dude use the TRIM"....nothing.... *moves wheel for them*... "See? It feels much better now"....

The instructor just told me to cock my hand to the left.

I was more worried about not screwing up badly in front of my fellow CFIs. I think next time I'll politely decline their request to fly until I get a handle on the plane.

 

[Velocity173]

Waiting 6 months for GI Bill approval?

Damn, I need to keep that in mind.

Well they said that they sent out the letter a month after I applied but I never got it. Pain in the butt trying to get a hold of someone in the VA too. I keep hearing rumors that they're going to cut off funding for tech schools so I decided to get it done ASAP.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

How much does a PA30 rent for in AR?

 

[bburnett]

I have about 100 hrs. in my Twin Comanche. As others have said, it seems proper airspeed and just hold back on the trim switch as you flare. I have a Miller conversion so with 2X200 hp. It is great on TO. Steep turns are great fun as is slow flight. I took my ME checkride in KHOT with Dr. Jerry Robinson. Rather aged fellow but he use to be head of the flight department at Henderson State University in Arkadelphia. They had a couple of PA30s when he was there and he was very familiar with the plane. He hadn't flown one with all the mods like mine and seemed to impressed with the plane, (not me). The emergency gear procedure is for emergencies only. Put the plane on jacks and do it on the ground. They are great light twins.

 

[Ruthless53]

In a Comanche with electric trim I just keep rolling in the trim through the flair touching down with full trim. It makes for really slick landings in a Comanche, slick enough to **** off their owners.

Serious question as not many of the planes I fly have trim issues. Would continuasly rolling trim like that effect you in a go around situation? Would think if you get to full trim its going to make it a handful once you push full power. May be completely off base here but that was my initial thought when reading.

 

[bobmrg]

From what I've gathered today you need to keep about 16" on approach. My MEI said it you pull it back to 10" it will sink badly. But this is relative to me. I sometimes have to do idle approaches in Maule. So carrying in power is a relatively new thing to me.

At 15-16" the prop is pulling the airplane; at 10" you are in flat-plate-drag range (figure 12-3, Airplane Flying Handbook) and that is why you get the sink. At 11-12" the props are essentially idling.

I got my MEL in a Twinkie back in the 70s, before the FAA recognized zero-sideslip, and we did things in training (and testing) that are anathema today...like pulling the nose up to below red line and killing an engine. At that time the FAA mantra when an engine failed was wings level, ball in the center. Killed a lot of instructors and students (one of each at my school) before the FAA was educated by one of its own, test pilot/engineer Les Berven, who wrote a staff study on zero-sideslip in 1976.

Great airplane. Flew a lot of charters in PA-30/39.

Bob Gardner
THE COMPLETE MULTIENGINE PILOT

 

[bburnett]

If you are getting a ME rating. Get Bob's book, either in print or ebook. Helped me a lot.

 

[ARFlyer]

How much does a PA30 rent for in AR?

$228 wet w/o an instructor

 

[ARFlyer]

I have about 100 hrs. in my Twin Comanche. As others have said, it seems proper airspeed and just hold back on the trim switch as you flare. I have a Miller conversion so with 2X200 hp. It is great on TO. Steep turns are great fun as is slow flight. I took my ME checkride in KHOT with Dr. Jerry Robinson. Rather aged fellow but he use to be head of the flight department at Henderson State University in Arkadelphia. They had a couple of PA30s when he was there and he was very familiar with the plane. He hadn't flown one with all the mods like mine and seemed to impressed with the plane, (not me). The emergency gear procedure is for emergencies only. Put the plane on jacks and do it on the ground. They are great light twins.

Haha Doc still does checkrides. He is currently in the process of building his own plane at the field.

One thing that I've picked up from him was clearing airspace before turning. If you turned with out looking he start going off on you.

 

[bburnett]

Yes. He mentioned looking before a turn during the oral portion. I always asked if it was clear right before a right turn. I gained knowledge during the checkride, which is always a goal. Great guy. I contacted his POI at the FAA in LR and gave him very favorable remarks on my checkride.

 

[Henning]

Serious question as not many of the planes I fly have trim issues. Would continuasly rolling trim like that effect you in a go around situation? Would think if you get to full trim its going to make it a handful once you push full power. May be completely off base here but that was my initial thought when reading.

Not particularly, I hear worry about it all the time, but haven't had it affect me.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Serious question as not many of the planes I fly have trim issues. Would continuasly rolling trim like that effect you in a go around situation? Would think if you get to full trim its going to make it a handful once you push full power. May be completely off base here but that was my initial thought when reading.

I've never understood these questions.

If the airplane is trimmed and full power will put it in a high nose up attitude, don't add full power! Add whatever is necessary to level off, get the airplane re-trimmed, and fly the airplane out of there.

Flying isn't a single reaction for every action, every situation is different. Fly the airplane.

If you are getting a ME rating. Get Bob's book, either in print or ebook. Helped me a lot.

What book?

 

[bburnett]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Multi-Engine-Pilot/dp/1560277327

 

[flyingcheesehead]

$228 wet w/o an instructor

Nice... $115/hr cheaper than the Seneca near here.

 

[ja_user]

Nice... $115/hr cheaper than the Seneca near here.

245/235 block time here

 

[jordane93]

The Seminole at my flight school is going for 269 club/299 regular. I'm really hoping to just find someone with a multi plane who will let me ride along or help fly it once i get my multi rating

 

[stratobee]

Every aircraft benefits from keeping some power in the flare. I get it - they want you to learn how to land without excess speed and not use up more rwy than necessary, so it's a good thing they teach that way. However, when you have the rwy, there is no reason you can't treat a 152 just as a twin. Much easier to do good landings with a little power.

 

[FastEddieB]

Every aircraft benefits from keeping some power in the flare.

Whatever works for you, but as an instructor I find that pilots who find power in the flare as "helpful" are using it as a crutch to cover up an issue with their landings.

I land most small GA planes at idle with zero problems. My students learned from the beginning to land the plane at idle with zero problems. The best pilots I fly with use idle in the flare with zero problems.

In fact, I want to have the power in most planes at idle by around 100'. One less thing to futz with in the roundout and flare. May not work well in heavier twins, but as stated before, even they usually respond well to idle in the flare.

But if you like power in the flare, go for it. But do NOT leave the impression that it's an overall "good" - it's not.

 

[bobmrg]

Whatever works for you, but as an instructor I find that pilots who find power in the flare as "helpful" are using it as a crutch to cover up an issue with their landings.

I land most small GA planes at idle with zero problems. My students learned from the beginning to land the plane at idle with zero problems. The best pilots I fly with use idle in the flare with zero problems.

In fact, I want to have the power in most planes at idle by around 100'. One less thing to futz with in the roundout and flare. May not work well in heavier twins, but as stated before, even they usually respond well to idle in the flare.

But if you like power in the flare, go for it. But do NOT leave the impression that it's an overall "good" - it's not.

A lot depends on whether the prop is fixed pitch or constant speed. I'll guarantee you that going to idle with a c/s prop will put the props on the low pitch stop and you will experience flat plate drag. Again, figure 12-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook is relevant.

Bob

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Whatever works for you, but as an instructor I find that pilots who find power in the flare as "helpful" are using it as a crutch to cover up an issue with their landings.

I land most small GA planes at idle with zero problems. My students learned from the beginning to land the plane at idle with zero problems. The best pilots I fly with use idle in the flare with zero problems.

In fact, I want to have the power in most planes at idle by around 100'. One less thing to futz with in the roundout and flare. May not work well in heavier twins, but as stated before, even they usually respond well to idle in the flare.

But if you like power in the flare, go for it. But do NOT leave the impression that it's an overall "good" - it's not.

This... Hell, even airliners reduce to idle in the flare.

A 152 with power is gonna take forever to land.

A twin does have a lot of flat-plate drag with both at idle, but that's simply something to be aware of and compensate for.

 

[FastEddieB]

A lot depends on whether the prop is fixed pitch or constant speed.

Maybe.

But idle from 100' or so worked fine in my Cirrus. I hear some of the composite props have more drag, so their mileage may vary.

I qualified with some "usually"s, because I recall a Cessna 210 or a Cherokee 6 loaded towards the forward limit could use a touch of power to keep the nose from slamming down. But for me, power in the flare is the rare exception, not the norm.