First Mooney Flight

[FlyingTiger]

Have the opportunity to fly a Mooney M20E tomorrow morning. Really nice plane with 201 cowling and windshield mods. Usually fly an Arrow and based on my conversations with the owner, sounds like I can expect a 20kt cruise increase (155kts v. 135kts) What other major differences should I expect?

fyi, CFI familiar with this aircraft will be in the right seat for this flight.

 

[MikeELP]

Have the opportunity to fly a Mooney M20E tomorrow morning. Really nice plane with 201 cowling and windshield mods. Usually fly an Arrow and based on my conversations with the owner, sounds like I can expect a 20kt cruise increase (155kts v. 135kts) What other major differences should I expect?

fyi, CFI we both use will be in the right seat for this flight.

Tell the owner his airplane's tail is on backwards.

Mooney owners love that. They really do!! :wink2:

 

[jesse]

Have the opportunity to fly a Mooney M20E tomorrow morning. Really nice plane with 201 cowling and windshield mods. Usually fly an Arrow and based on my conversations with the owner, sounds like I can expect a 20kt cruise increase (155kts v. 135kts) What other major differences should I expect?

fyi, CFI familiar with this aircraft will be in the right seat for this flight.

Takes substantially more planning to slow down, and flying the correct airspeed on landing will be the difference between a nice landing and floating about 1500 ft.

 

[TWinter]

Plan on having a big grin on your face for a few hours after the flight..

 

[Dav8or]

Plan on having a big grin on your face for a few hours after the flight..

Yes. Plan on wanting one after you're done. However you will feel the claustrophobic effect of the panel being closer and the roof line pinching in at the upper left in comparison. You will also notice the very real smaller foot well space.

I used to fly an Arrow IV before the Mooney and these were my observations. However you quickly adjust in your mind and now it's normal. I flew a Warrior a couple of years ago and it now seems somehow "too big" inside. Like things are too far away. I do like the bigger foot well though.

 

[Pilawt]

Take it easy on taxi. Mooney's wheelbase is shorter than the Arrow's, and the rubber donut shock absorber in the nose gear can make it feel bouncy on rough pavement.

And yes, plan well ahead for descents and slowing to gear speed. It doesn't like to slow down.

Does the Mooney you're flying have manual gear? That's different, too.

 

[Hank S]

The Mooney will go down or slow down, but not both at the same time.

I generally descend power on, and initially allowed a couple of miles to slow down to pattern speed(I like 90 mph). Be on speed around the pattern. For final, 1.3 Vso works, but subtract another 5 mph for every 300 lb. below gross. I generally roll wings level at 85, and pull power when I know I've got the runway made. Puts me over the numbers at 70-75, and I generally touch down on the 2nd or 3rd stripe at small fields.

The faster you are, the further you will float in the flare. Mooneys have a bad record of two landing failures: pilots floating off the far end, or getting anxious and pushing on the yoke to land, ending in PIO and prop strike. NEVER PUSH THE YOKE AFTER FLARE!

Other than that, you'll have a great time! Enjoy it, the E has the best power to weight ratio of all the non-turbo Mooneys. Expect the controls to be a little heavy, because there are no cables or pulleys, it's all push-pull rods. If there's a large button above your left thumb, hold it down for maneuvering then release it, it's the Positive Control override button (factory wing leveler, easy to override without harm).

 

[StinkBug]

If it has the PC system the controls will definitely feel heavy, at least the ailerons will. I actually pull that button out of the yoke to disable the system when I'm hand flying. Even without that system you'll definitely notice that the controls are very tight and responsive. Most pilots love the way the controls feel.

The flaps are much less effective than the arrow, and really wont slow you down much if any. If you're high and fast on final, go around. You cant force it to the ground without bad things happening. You'll also notice more float in ground effect. Slower is better when landing.

Next thing you know you'll be posting over on Mooneyspace about buying one. Good luck!

 

[mkosmo]

I keep seeing people mention that about a Mooney... but if you're high and fast with plenty of time, is a slip not still an option?

 

[Hank S]

Sure, short bodies like the E slip well. Just don't expect the descent rate of a Cessna. There are static ports on both sides of the rear fuselage so airspeed should be accurate throughout. Try one each way at altitude and see how it works; doing it first on final is suboptimal planning.

Remember, it's an airplane, it flies like an airplane. It's just a funner one!

 

[Blueangel]

I love Mooney for a 1-2 person aircraft. Fuel efficient, handles well and very fast! BUT the only concern is very limited useful load compared to other aircraft. For a 1-2 person plane as a commuter it is hard to beat.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I keep seeing people mention that about a Mooney... but if you're high and fast with plenty of time, is a slip not still an option?

Sure it is. Just be aware that speed at the threshold still needs to be on target.

With the low wing and short stubby gear legs, the ground effect is huge if you are fast. You will not get the wheels to stay on the ground until you get it slowed down. Unfortunately, that is sometimes a bit too far down the runway.

Get the speeds down to 1.3 Vso, and it's a pussycat.

 

[StinkBug]

I love Mooney for a 1-2 person aircraft. Fuel efficient, handles well and very fast! BUT the only concern is very limited useful load compared to other aircraft. For a 1-2 person plane as a commuter it is hard to beat.

I keep hearing this, yet my C (which is one of the lowest rated of all Mooneys) has plenty of useful load. Full fuel I still have over 650lbs to work with, which is nearly 4 FAA people. That's better than most other 180hp 4 seaters I've flown. The back seat is a bit tight, but I have put 4 adults in it before for a sightseeing trip. 3 people and light baggage is very doable and reasonably comfortable. 2 people you can carry just about whatever you want.

 

[James331]

I fail to see the issue, every plane will be a handful if you don't fly it by the speeds and don't cross the threshold at vref.

Push any yoke down in ground effect and you'll end up playing the PIO game, which often will end up crunching anything.

These things should be known and demonstrated before you hit 10hrs and your first solo.

Want to slow down, dump the gear and nose up slip, or do a few 1.5G S turns, or just plan your decent to be at target altitude a few minutes before you need to.

Again this is stuff that any post solo student pilot should know.


Just don't get how people think Bos and Mooneys are these fire breathing dragons, is it a ego thing, or are CFIs training pilots so poorly that folks can't handle a simple GA single now days?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I fail to see the issue, every plane will be a handful if you don't fly it by the speeds and don't cross the threshold at vref.

Push any yoke down in ground effect and you'll end up playing the PIO game, which often will end up crunching anything.

These things should be known and demonstrated before you hit 10hrs and your first solo. E

Want to slow down, dump the gear and nose up slip, or do a few 1.5G S turns, or just plan your decent to be at target altitude a few minutes before you need to.

Again this is stuff that any post solo student pilot should know.


Just don't get how people think Bos and Mooneys are these fire breathing dragons, is it a ego thing, or are CFIs training pilots so poorly that folks can't handle a simple GA single now days?

I transitioned from taildraggers to a mooney. The person who checked me out in a super 21 showed me how close the prop was to the ground, and then demonstrated how to slow it down in the pattern prior to landing. Once I landed it several times.( Slow it down!) , landing exactly like I would a tail dragger, it was a real docile airplane. When landing on a grass strip you must hold the wheel back in your lap so the prop does not mow the grass. I don't think anyone who's flown either a bonanza or a mooney thinks they are difficult, more likely just different in each case. ( I was usually flying out of 22-2500 foot runway. ) Mooneys are great airplanes imho.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I have over about 75 hours in an Arrow and maybe 15 in a Mooney (M20E Super 21). I'd pick the Mooney any day of the week.

Like James said, don't get your panties in a bunch because it's a Mooney. If you're a decent pilot, you'll be fine. Don't taxi fast, like someone else mentioned. Landing preparation begins the second you start a descent from cruise altitude (in terms of speed control).

 

[jesse]

I keep hearing this, yet my C (which is one of the lowest rated of all Mooneys) has plenty of useful load. Full fuel I still have over 650lbs to work with, which is nearly 4 FAA people. That's better than most other 180hp 4 seaters I've flown. The back seat is a bit tight, but I have put 4 adults in it before for a sightseeing trip. 3 people and light baggage is very doable and reasonably comfortable. 2 people you can carry just about whatever you want.

Full fuel in the Acclaim S I flew recently with TKS and G1000 put me at gross with myself at 150 lbs and my 115 lb girlfriend.

But damn it was fast and fun to fly.

 

[MSPAviator]

I keep seeing people mention that about a Mooney... but if you're high and fast with plenty of time, is a slip not still an option?

No it's not. If you want to take a C-172 and simulate what it's like to do a power off descent in a Mooney, from cruise flight at 110kt., push the throttle all the way forward and dial in a 20 degree descent.

 

[LDJones]

I love Mooney for a 1-2 person aircraft. Fuel efficient, handles well and very fast! BUT the only concern is very limited useful load compared to other aircraft. For a 1-2 person plane as a commuter it is hard to beat.

We had a short body Mooney (C Model) for 12 years and flew it all over the country with a kid and dog in the backseat, sometimes my wife and the dog in the backseat. We'd load it to the gills and still be just under gross.

It's not as bad as some people make it out to be.

 

[LDJones]

Full fuel in the Acclaim S I flew recently with TKS and G1000 put me at gross with myself at 150 lbs and my 115 lb girlfriend.

But damn it was fast and fun to fly.

TKS and all the options definitely drop the useful load. But since most are flown with one or two on-board I guess it fits the mission for some.

 

[Dav8or]

Just don't get how people think Bos and Mooneys are these fire breathing dragons, is it a ego thing, or are CFIs training pilots so poorly that folks can't handle a simple GA single now days?

No they aren't fire breathing dragons at all. However, this is brought up again and again because Mooneys do not fly exactly like a an Arrow, or Warrior, or Skyhawk, or a Cutlass, or even a Skylane when it comes to the landing phase. Again and again we witness people landing too fast in Mooney.

This is often due to entering the pattern too fast, or ending up too high on final. In the Cessna and Piper products most GA pilots are familiar with, these situations aren't a big deal, just pull the power and the plane will slow down and plummet. Pull the power on a Mooney and it will keep flying level longer. This fools noobies into pushing the nose over.

If you end up over the numbers too fast, you will float for days. You try to force it on and you will be looking at an engine tear down. The Mooney is much more sensitive to speed in the flare that the usual C and P models.

Yes, yes, we should all have learned perfect speed control by ten hours and by forty never do anything wrong in an airplane. However, that is not the real world. I'm sure it was for you, but nearly everyone else these days were taught just enough to fly a Skyhawk, or Warrior and not kill themselves, with a license to learn. Just the way it is.

 

[N3368K]

As a friend of mine likes to say, you can slow down or go down, but not both at the same time.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Just don't get how people think Bos and Mooneys are these fire breathing dragons, is it a ego thing, or are CFIs training pilots so poorly that folks can't handle a simple GA single now days?

No fire breathing dragons in a 180 or 200 HP Mooney. I think its your latter guess that's correct though.

Either too many CFIs and pilots thinking they'll get bit if the laminar wing drops out from under them if they get slow on final, or pilots relying on bad habits while transitioning from trainer based planes that stop flying and fall to the pavement after pulling the throttle, even if they come in 10+ knots too fast.

The Bo I fly from time to time has a great tolerance for landing a little hot, and stops flying shortly after the throttle is chopped. Not a Mooney. Just different, that's all.

 

[Dav8or]

Full fuel in the Acclaim S I flew recently with TKS and G1000 put me at gross with myself at 150 lbs and my 115 lb girlfriend.

But damn it was fast and fun to fly.

Yes, now tell us how much fuel that was and did you really need to fill the tanks all the way up? The late model Mooneys give the pilot the option of either great range, or hauling a load. They carry over 100 gallons. They can fly 1000 miles non stop with only one on board.

However, people have it in their heads that any airplane should be able to carry the full seat capacity with baggage plus whatever the full fuel quantity happens to be. Because of this, Mooney always gets dinged for "Not being able to carry much".

The philosophy at Mooney has always been about speed. Being able to carry enough fuel to make your trip non stop is the greatest speed mod a plane could have. Mooney realized that most people fly alone most of the time, or with just one other, so they put big tanks on the plane. Unfortunately it has hurt the marketing department because Mooneys have now gotten this reputation for not being able to carry anything.

This is really only an issue with the late model long body Mooneys. The vintage Fs like mine and the earlier Js, carry a very competitive 900 + lb useful load.

 

[Hank S]

Amen, Dave. My 180 hp Mooney will carry fuel fuel (5-1/2 hours, or 4-1/2 + 1 hr reserve) plus 670 lbs.

My Mooney also slips just fine. But I cruise at 7000 & up, and ~140 mph indicated. A steady 500 fpm descent puts me right at 165-170 mph indicated. Flap speed is 125; gear speed is 120. Find another way to slow down, those will only do it for you once, then into the $hop.

I came in solo & half tanks to a 2000' grass strip that I had visited in the past with a passenger. Flew my normal speeds for my 3000' paved home field, with half flaps. Cleared the knee high orange fence by just a few feet, throttle already at idle, and floated halfway down the field towards the gravel pile at the end, with no significant loss of speed or altitude, call it 72 mph. Then I raised flaps and set down solidly, thankful that grass stops faster.

Expect significant nose down pitch when you add flaps. Any time you adjust power, reach for the trim wheel. Makes it more pleasant when you aren't fighting it.

On a go round, cram everything forward with your right hand and stiff arm the yoke with your left. Adjust trim, raise gear, milk flaps up, and trim it again. THEN trek as your left arm.

And don't forget to have fun! See you on Mooneyspace soon . . . . .

 

[jesse]

Yes, now tell us how much fuel that was and did you really need to fill the tanks all the way up? The late model Mooneys give the pilot the option of either great range, or hauling a load. They carry over 100 gallons. They can fly 1000 miles non stop with only one on board.

However, people have it in their heads that any airplane should be able to carry the full seat capacity with baggage plus whatever the full fuel quantity happens to be. Because of this, Mooney always gets dinged for "Not being able to carry much".

The philosophy at Mooney has always been about speed. Being able to carry enough fuel to make your trip non stop is the greatest speed mod a plane could have. Mooney realized that most people fly alone most of the time, or with just one other, so they put big tanks on the plane. Unfortunately it has hurt the marketing department because Mooneys have now gotten this reputation for not being able to carry anything.

This is really only an issue with the late model long body Mooneys. The vintage Fs like mine and the earlier Js, carry a very competitive
900 + lb useful load.

Well aware of that. I'm not exactly new to this whole airplane driving thing.

With a TSIO-550 its not exactly a low fuel burner., especially in the climb. If I were going to do a 2 hour flight I would want no less than 45 gallons on board. That'd bump the useful load to 600 lbs which isn't a lot really considering how much fuel you left.

The older mooneys with smaller power plants are considerably better in that regard.

In this case, it's not my bird, and 100 gallons is what was in it. Defueling 55 gallons of liquid gold is not an easy operation.

 

[StinkBug]

No they aren't fire breathing dragons at all. However, this is brought up again and again because Mooneys do not fly exactly like a an Arrow, or Warrior, or Skyhawk, or a Cutlass, or even a Skylane when it comes to the landing phase. Again and again we witness people landing too fast in Mooney.

This is often due to entering the pattern too fast, or ending up too high on final. In the Cessna and Piper products most GA pilots are familiar with, these situations aren't a big deal, just pull the power and the plane will slow down and plummet. Pull the power on a Mooney and it will keep flying level longer. This fools noobies into pushing the nose over.

If you end up over the numbers too fast, you will float for days. You try to force it on and you will be looking at an engine tear down. The Mooney is much more sensitive to speed in the flare that the usual C and P models.

Yes, yes, we should all have learned perfect speed control by ten hours and by forty never do anything wrong in an airplane. However, that is not the real world. I'm sure it was for you, but nearly everyone else these days were taught just enough to fly a Skyhawk, or Warrior and not kill themselves, with a license to learn. Just the way it is.

This....all of this. If you're on speed like you should be everything will be gravy. If you're a bit fast the Mooney is more unforgiving than a 172, Archer, or Arrow that's all. In any of those planes if you're fast it's easy to slow down, in the Mooney not so much. That's all. They are fast planes and you need to stay ahead of them. If you're doing what you should they will do what they should. Simple as that.

 

[mkosmo]

No it's not. If you want to take a C-172 and simulate what it's like to do a power off descent in a Mooney, from cruise flight at 110kt., push the throttle all the way forward and dial in a 20 degree descent.

There's no way in hell that's not an exaggeration. Seriously, Mooney wouldn't have the fantastic safety reputation they have if their birds were flying death traps. I need to find somebody nearby with a Mooney that'll let me have an hour of play time.

 

[Pilawt]

How does saying that a Mooney has different handling characteristics from a C-172 (which is obvious to anyone who has flown them) equate to saying the Mooney is a "flying death trap"? They do handle differently, and an action in one with the expectation that the result will be the same as in the other, may lead to disappointment.

My favorite rental M20J was wrecked when it collided with a house on a botched go-around because the pilot used sloppy, completely inappropriate technique which would likely have been forgiven and forgotten in a C-172.

The Mooney's structure, by the way, did a marvelous job of protecting the pilot, who walked away uninjured.

 

[mkosmo]

How does saying that a Mooney has different handling characteristics from a C-172 (which is obvious to anyone who has flown them) equate to saying the Mooney is a "flying death trap"? They do handle differently, and an action in one with the expectation that the result will be the same as in the other, may lead to disappointment.

My favorite rental M20J was wrecked when it collided with a house on a botched go-around because the pilot used sloppy, completely inappropriate technique which would likely have been forgiven and forgotten in a C-172.

The Mooney's structure, by the way, did a marvelous job of protecting the pilot, who walked away uninjured.

An exaggeration on my part, but time and time again I see it said that they are a difficult airplane to handle. Of course they'll handle differently, and of course they need to be flown in accordance with their flight characteristics, but apart from being slick, it's just another single engine light aircraft. Being a few knots fast isn't going to lead to a botched landing if you can think a few steps ahead, even if less-than-perfect planning got you there to begin with. Plenty of average and sub-average pilots manage to fly them successfully every day without getting anybody hurt or bending any metal.

 

[StinkBug]

Being a few knots fast isn't going to lead to a botched landing if you can think a few steps ahead, even if less-than-perfect planning got you there to begin with.

Emphasis added by me.

If you're not thinking far enough ahead to be on speed, you're unlikely to be thinking far enough ahead to deal with that extra speed. These planes are not death traps, they just require a different technique from most common trainers. That's all.

I'm curious how many of the people saying they are hard to handle have actually spent any amount of time in one, and how many are just regurgitating things they read on the interwebs.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Many Mooneys have speed brakes, which helps when you to get down and slow down at the same time. My rule of thumb is I need 5nm for every 1000' of altitude, unfortunately you can't always do that, ATC had me at 4000' at 8 miles...I cancelled IFR and did a 360 to lose altitude and speed.
I've done my share of go arounds, don't try to save a landing from a bad position(speed), swallow your pride and go around.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Many Mooneys have speed brakes, which helps when you to get down and slow down at the same time. My rule of thumb is I need 5nm for every 1000' of altitude, unfortunately you can't always do that, ATC had me at 4000' at 8 miles...I cancelled IFR and did a 360 to lose altitude and speed.
I've done my share of go arounds, don't try to save a landing from a bad position(speed), swallow your pride and go around.

 

[FlyingTiger]

Lots of great comments! Thanks for the input. Going up in a couple hours; I'll post my thoughts about the flight later today.

 

[eman1200]

I have over about 75 hours in an Arrow and maybe 15 in a Mooney (M20E Super 21). I'd pick the Mooney any day of the week.....

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this. PM me if you don't mind, so we don't hijack this thread. Thanks!

 

[MikeELP]

.... Be a good pilot and it'll be a good airplane.

Well said...whether it be Mooney, Bonanza, Cirrus, Piper etc.



I've transitioned a number of pilots from 172's to a Bonanza either for their desire to rent it, or for their Commercial certificate training.

Transitioning to a higher performance airplane requires adding to the skill sets you already have...learning the new numbers and the new feel. If properly taught how to fly it, it will behave in a predictable manner and do what it supposed to do.

My two cents.

 

[James331]

No they aren't fire breathing dragons at all. However, this is brought up again and again because Mooneys do not fly exactly like a an Arrow, or Warrior, or Skyhawk, or a Cutlass, or even a Skylane when it comes to the landing phase. Again and again we witness people landing too fast in Mooney.

This is often due to entering the pattern too fast, or ending up too high on final. In the Cessna and Piper products most GA pilots are familiar with, these situations aren't a big deal, just pull the power and the plane will slow down and plummet. Pull the power on a Mooney and it will keep flying level longer. This fools noobies into pushing the nose over.

If you end up over the numbers too fast, you will float for days. You try to force it on and you will be looking at an engine tear down. The Mooney is much more sensitive to speed in the flare that the usual C and P models.

Yes, yes, we should all have learned perfect speed control by ten hours and by forty never do anything wrong in an airplane. However, that is not the real world. I'm sure it was for you, but nearly everyone else these days were taught just enough to fly a Skyhawk, or Warrior and not kill themselves, with a license to learn. Just the way it is.

Im not saying perfect speed control, but you should be able to fly a plane at the correct speed, understand the forces of flight and be able to do very basic math, those three things will allow you do be able to land a mooney like any other GA plane.

It's a license to learn, but if you were not able to demonstrate the above its a license you should never have received, also you should never have been signed off for your BFR without demoing the above basic skills.

Going from a 180ish cruise to 120ish VLO should not difficult for anyone, if you pull power and hold altitude the plane will slow down, I promise, if you slip it will slow down, if you do some hard turns it will slow down, pitch back up and it will slow down.

Again, it's nothing special and as a CFI I would have zero issue training someone from 0 time in the biggest baddest mooney you can find.


To the OP, enjoy your flight, just fly it like any other plane and understand v speeds like any plane and you'll be good.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I fail to see the issue, every plane will be a handful if you don't fly it by the speeds and don't cross the threshold at vref.

A 172 will be a lot more forgiving of sloppy poor technique than a Cirrus, Mooney, or Bonanza will though.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Have the opportunity to fly a Mooney M20E tomorrow morning. Really nice plane with 201 cowling and windshield mods. Usually fly an Arrow and based on my conversations with the owner, sounds like I can expect a 20kt cruise increase (155kts v. 135kts) What other major differences should I expect?

fyi, CFI familiar with this aircraft will be in the right seat for this flight.

Just a few things:

1) You must plan your descents. The 5mi/1000 feet rule of thumb posted elsewhere in this thread is a good one for the <=200hp (short/mid body) Mooneys.

2) The plane sits on the ground at a 4.5º nose up pitch angle. If you're on the ground at 70 knots and not putting back pressure on the yoke, your mains will be off the ground but the nosewheel will still be on the ground. Don't do that.

2a) On takeoff, add some back pressure to the yoke around 55 knots/60mph and wait. The plane will fly when it's ready. Not enough pressure you'll lift the mains off before the nose. Too much pressure and you'll over-rotate and jump off the ground with the stall warning blaring. It's not hard, just don't force it. You don't "rotate" - You pull back and wait. It'll fly when it's ready.

2b) On landing, DO NOT try to force it down. You'll hit nosewheel first, porpoise, etc. This is true of any plane, but the Mooney's pitch-up angle when sitting on the ground means it's easier to hit nose first, and its slick aerodynamics mean that if you come in fast you'll either float for a long time or hit nose first. Again, it's not hard, it's simply not forgiving of poor or sloppy technique.

3) Most planes pitch up when you extend flaps. Mooneys pitch DOWN. You'll need to add lots of nose up trim as you extend flaps.

Other than that, it's an airplane, but it's a damn nice airplane! I still remember my first Mooney flight and how impressed I was with it. I've been a Mooniac ever since!

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Good points, re: 3, if you trim at the same time as you change flaps, it will keep the plane in balance. Especially important on go arounds otherwise it will pitch up hard when go full power and retract flaps, you will risk stalling the plane.