First Long XC after PPL

cocolos

cocolos

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cocolos
So I am embarking on my first long XC of roughly 600nm. I will be flying from ksac-kpoc-ksdl. Woud you guys have an words of advice or tips? Here's my proposed flight plan that I hope to finalize this weekend and update according to weather and such. From the forecast it seems my only limitation will probably be the winds as they seem to be picking up here in the valley. I just hope they stay below my mins. of 15kts headwind and 10kts crosswind. FYI I will be flying a cherokee 180C.

Thanks!
 
I think your minimums may be an issue in the Phoenix area, as well as at emergency landing spots along your entire route. If you're going to fly over the Antelope Valley enroute to POC, those mountains are high and often shed vortices and mountain waves.

Fly early. Sunrise, if you can.

Given the current weather, I suggest getting an instructor and getting comfy with landing in the nastiest conditions you can find. Wind has been gusting up to 25 knots lately in spots.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think your minimums may be an issue in the Phoenix area, as well as at emergency landing spots along your entire route. If you're going to fly over the Antelope Valley enroute to POC, those mountains are high and often shed vortices and mountain waves.

Fly early. Sunrise, if you can.

Given the current weather, I suggest getting an instructor and getting comfy with landing in the nastiest conditions you can find. Wind has been gusting up to 25 knots lately in spots.
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I actually have a mountain flying checkout scheduled for tomorrow. So that would be good timing. I was also planning at leaving right before sunrise.
 
I'm sure there is a reason like mountains or some good reason I don't know but couldn't you go a more direct route?
 
Tehachapi mtns can be brutal. Try using victor airway 165. That's what I used coming back from Columbia and/or Bay Area many times. Not as severe as what you planned. The Tehachapis is nasty with turbulence...also big updrafts /downdrafts 500-1000 ft per min. Stay as high as you can. It doesn't look like you planned a fuelstop in Lancaster/Palmdale. Wait. It does look like you want to stop in Palmdale? That's a private airport, I think still, used only by the aerospace firms testing their planes and traffic out of Edwards.

Nasty crosswinds at Gen. Fox Field. Winds usually blowing around 30-40mph in afternoon. Learn how to land in the desert. It ain't the Sacramento/San Joaquin Valley. Crabing will get you in trouble when you're just about to flair. As you straighten out you get blown off the runway. Instead dip your wing into the wind and keep you nose on the centerline with your rudder and HOLD IT THERE thru the flair with power....and fly the plane all the way to the tiedown! Stall landing may not be possible. Most ground people will offer to drive out to the runway and have guys hold each wingtip to walk you to you tiedown if it's bad enough.

Got my commercial ticket in that area. On my checkride the wind off the mountains at Mojave Airport from downwind to base almost rolled the Cessna 210 we were in. The FAA guy said he had had enough and passed me and told me to head back to Lancaster cause he was getting sick.
 
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Have fun and figure it out as you go. You are a pilot now. :D

The route looks good to me.
 
Didnt look at your flight plan. I will tell you, your gonna have a bumpy ride from Bakersfield to POC. Just a fact of life for this time of year. I am out of CCB ( 5miles east of POC). Wind is not that big a deal. 90% time its right down the runway. POC is a graet little airport. It has a tower, if its windy and your nervous ask for 26L. Its longer & wider. Make sure you pay attn to your position, class B is all around that area. Stay north close to mts. and you will b clear
 
Just looked at your flight plan. Dont land at palmdale. Its not a public airport. Also. You will want to go west of agua dulce airport towards pasadena (rose bowl) then head east staying north of 210 fwy. Mountains are not as high and you will have a better ride. When leaving POC stay north of class c (ontario). I personally go up & over big bear (L35). Its a bit of a climb but the banning pass can get real nasty
 
I don't think the point is a landing in Palmdale. You can transit the airspace just fine. I think it's a case of picking the field instead of the onsite VOR. If you're going to cross the mountains directly over Mt. Wilson (which I don't recommend -- it's the highest point), you'll want to be at at least 9500 feet over PMD VOR. Your descent into the SG Valley is going to be quite steep.

It would be easier on all concerned to cross into LA via I-5, and overfly the KBUR Class C. That crossing can be done at 5500 (though it may be smoother at 7500).
 
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MAKG1 said:
I don't think the point is a landing in Palmdale. You can transit the airspace just fine. I think it's a case of picking the field instead of the onsite VOR. If you're going to cross the mountains directly over Mt. Wilson (which I don't recommend -- it's the highest point), you'll want to be at at least 9500 feet over PMD VOR. Your descent into the SG Valley is going to be quite steep.

It would be easier on all concerned to cross into LA via I-5, and overfly the KBUR Class C. That crossing can be done at 5500 (though it may be smoother at 7500).
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I see. Yea was thinking of using 7500 so I think I'll do the I-5 route.
 
Take the Tehachapi pass (route over KTSP) rather than going directly over the tall peaks to the southwest of it.

You have a private certificate now, why do you have mins (I'm assuming you actually mean maximums) of 10/15 kts?
 
pericynthion said:
Take the Tehachapi pass (route over KTSP) rather than going directly over the tall peaks to the southwest of it.

You have a private certificate now, why do you have mins (I'm assuming you actually mean maximums) of 10/15 kts?
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good catch.
 
Scottsdale is more expensive than Sky Harbor. Go to DVT or CHD instead if its practical.
 
Just checked the winds for tomorrow 16G26 flying from KSAC to KAUN for some mountain flying. Hopefully i can i get off well before the winds pick up so i can practice with the instructor in some windy conditions.
 
Contact Glendale airport about Luke AFB. I would not recommend using Luke as a waypoint nor going thru the Alert area.
 
cocolos said:
What would you recommend?
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Plan to go around, then ask politely in the air to go through. They're nice folks there, and they'll accommodate if they don't have traffic.

Their traffic is typically F-16s hauling butt. Usually late morning and early evening seems to be their busy times.

Glendale has parking fees in the public tiedowns, FWIW. I don't know the details, but it wasn't super expensive for a week. I don't know if you're staying there or not, I haven't kept up with the thread.

There was a little envelope stuck on my port side tiedown that had a little bill inside, all set to plop a check into when you got home.

If the FBO doesn't know you're coming, it'll look like a ghost town. The big building in the center is a flight school, not the FBO. FBO is northwest of the main ramp. Call ahead and get newer info, mine is a couple years old.
 
oldbabyboomer said:
Tehachapi mtns can be brutal. Try using victor airway 165. That's what I used coming back from Columbia and/or Bay Area many times. Not as severe as what you planned. The Tehachapis is nasty with turbulence...also big updrafts /downdrafts 500-1000 ft per min. Stay as high as you can. It doesn't look like you planned a fuelstop in Lancaster/Palmdale. Wait. It does look like you want to stop in Palmdale? That's a private airport, I think still, used only by the aerospace firms testing their planes and traffic out of Edwards.

Nasty crosswinds at Gen. Fox Field. Winds usually blowing around 30-40mph in afternoon. Learn how to land in the desert. It ain't the Sacramento/San Joaquin Valley. Crabing will get you in trouble when you're just about to flair. As you straighten out you get blown off the runway. Instead dip your wing into the wind and keep you nose on the centerline with your rudder and HOLD IT THERE thru the flair with power....and fly the plane all the way to the tiedown! Stall landing may not be possible. Most ground people will offer to drive out to the runway and have guys hold each wingtip to walk you to you tiedown if it's bad enough.

Got my commercial ticket in that area. On my checkride the wind off the mountains at Mojave Airport from downwind to base almost rolled the Cessna 210 we were in. The FAA guy said he had had enough and passed me and told me to head back to Lancaster cause he was getting sick.
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:D Sounds like New Mexico!
 
cocolos said:
Just checked the winds for tomorrow 16G26 flying from KSAC to KAUN for some mountain flying. Hopefully i can i get off well before the winds pick up so i can practice with the instructor in some windy conditions.
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Get away from flatland for your practice. Mountain turbulence and flatland turbulence are two totally different animals (flatland stuff is calm and collected and doesn't generate unintended rolls as in the mountains)
 
KAUN is in the foothills, not the flats.

Looking at the forecast, it looks like 25 knot gusts across the Sierra peaks between Tahoe and Mammoth, much less on the west slope. Gonna be "interesting." At least it's a north wind, so mountain waves are unlikely. But the turbulence is going to be significant, especially below any upwind peaks.
 
denverpilot said:
Glendale has parking fees in the public tiedowns, FWIW. I don't know the details, but it wasn't super expensive for a week. I don't know if you're staying there or not, I haven't kept up with the thread.

There was a little envelope stuck on my port side tiedown that had a little bill inside, all set to plop a check into when you got home.

If the FBO doesn't know you're coming, it'll look like a ghost town. The big building in the center is a flight school, not the FBO. FBO is northwest of the main ramp. Call ahead and get newer info, mine is a couple years old.
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Call the Glendale FBO. The FBO has free parking if you buy fuel and they have the spots available. The area that looks like it'd be FBO parking is city owned and they will charge you $3 a night. Call ahead for free is easier. I don't think he was planning an overnight here if the departure was Scottsdale.
 
Maybe you've modified your route but straight across the Tehachapi, San Gabriels and through Banning pass on a windy day....

You gonna wear a helmet? ;)

Actually, looking at Skyvector, it looks pretty calm today.
 
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I did a similar x-c after my PPL albeit I started in Arizona. It was the month of July and I flew a C172 from Ryan Field near Tucson to Reid-Hillview in San Jose. I stuck to the airways and used flight following the whole way. The return trip took an extra day since storm activity north of the L.A. basin encouraged me to spend a night in Victorville. I remember refueling in Blythe. When I opened the plane door a dog jumped-up to lick my hand and then took-off.
 
Any pireps on the lake hughes fire? I am thinking of modifying my route and going through Tehachapi pass (over KTSP) and then going direct to L26 the going through the Cajon Pass to KPOC. Weather permitting. There's forecast for fog so might have pick up my friend at L26 then head to KSDL from there.
 
WAUS46 KKCI 021445
SFOT WA 021445
AIRMET TANGO UPDT 2 FOR TURB AND STG SFC WNDS VALID UNTIL 022100
AIRMET TURB...CA AND CSTL WTRS
FROM 40N EHF TO 50NNW HEC TO 20ESE HEC TO TRM TO 40W RZS TO 40N
EHF
MOD TURB BLW 120. CONDS DVLPG 18-21Z. CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU
03Z.
OTLK VALID 2100-0300Z
AREA 1...TURB WA OR AND CSTL WTRS
BOUNDED BY 30SSE YDC-50SSE YKM-70S HQM-60WNW TOU-HUH-30SSE YDC
MOD TURB BTN FL220 AND FL410. CONDS DVLPG 00-03Z. CONDS CONTG
THRU 03Z.
AREA 2...STG SFC WNDS OR CA CSTL WTRS
BOUNDED BY 140WSW ONP-80SSW ONP-20WSW FOT-30S PYE-130WSW SNS-
140WSW FOT-140WSW ONP
SUSTAINED SURFACE WINDS GTR THAN 30KT EXP. CONDS CONTG THRU 03Z.
 
WAUS46 KKCI 021445
SFOS WA 021445
AIRMET SIERRA UPDT 3 FOR IFR AND MTN OBSCN VALID UNTIL 022100
AIRMET IFR...OR CA AND CSTL WTRS
FROM 60WNW ONP TO 20NE ONP TO 50WSW OED TO 40S FOT TO OAK TO
20WNW RZS TO 50ENE LAX TO 40WSW TRM TO 30SE MZB TO 220SW MZB TO
140WSW FOT TO 110W ONP TO 60WNW ONP
CIG BLW 010/VIS BLW 3SM BR. CONDS CONTG BYD 21Z THRU 03Z.
 
Okay. Sounds like a fun trip. Get back with us the day before if you need anything.
 
Looks like LA basin is going to be fogged in until noon or so this week. Ideally I'd like to be in LA by 7-8AM which won't be possible now. So would an arrival near noon be very bumpy near the Gorman pass? I am also considering stopping at KBUR or KONT instead. Lastly would an arrival in the afternoon also be brutal in the Phoenix area? I see forecast of 108F! I'm also a bit worried about the density altitude.
 
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It's almost always nastier in the afternoon than the morning on a given day, but that may or may not be as bad as you think. Fog means stable air. Arriving around the burn-off will give you some turbulence, but it may be well into the manageable zone. There is one AWOS station near the north end of the Grapevine (it's actually on Hwy 138 some 5 miles off I-5, not far east of Gorman VOR). Keep an eye on it. Give yourself plenty of terrain clearance and explicit permission to divert to Bakersfield or go back if you don't like it.

With 108 deg temperatures, density altitude will be a factor (so, expect worse climb behaviors, calculate runway length requirements, and expect higher ground speeds for a given IAS). But it's not truly serious density altitude; your airplane can handle it even if it's a Cessna 150. MUCH more significant is the possibility of heat exhaustion. Carry water, familiarize yourself with relevant symptoms, and don't be afraid to use a wet towel. Heat exhaustion will make your landings really bad, and it's amazing how little it takes.
 
Yes, it gets bumpy in the afternoons but you are learning one of the basic facts about using a small airplane to get to a place 800 miles away - there's no getting around it, you'll just have to deal with it eventually, one way or another.

As for 108 degrees - it won't be that hot at 7500 feet, you'll be downright comfortable until it comes time to descend into the cauldron. If your buddy is going for his first ride in a small plane you might want to spend the night in Pomona and go to Phoenix the next morning. It would be a lot more enjoyable for him.
 
Well I was worried about the heat mainly because of the density altitude and I would be at or near gross. But charts seem reasonable. Good thing I took my mountain flying course that taught me a lot about DA.

Would you all still consider the I-5 route even with that fire? I guess that would depend on the winds. I plan on either taking that route or the one near Hesperia. FYI I plan for 9,500ft altitude.

Thanks for the tips I'll make sure to keep myself and passengers hydrated.
 
Check current winds at Sandberg AWOS, and if they are blowing toward the fire, don't sweat it. This is likely; Lake Hughes is east of Gorman and winds are usually westerly or southerly. Right now, it's 240 @ 5. Just perfect. Even KWJF, which appears directly downwind of the fire, is reporting clear skies and 220 @ 7.

You may be able to overfly the smoke, but treat it like a cloud unless you can see through it.
 
MAKG1 said:
Check current winds at Sandberg AWOS, and if they are blowing toward the fire, don't sweat it. This is likely; Lake Hughes is east of Gorman and winds are usually westerly or southerly. Right now, it's 240 @ 5. Just perfect. Even KWJF, which appears directly downwind of the fire, is reporting clear skies and 220 @ 7.

You may be able to overfly the smoke, but treat it like a cloud unless you can see through it.
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Will do thanks! I plan to be off the ground at 9-10 from sac and getting updates on fog through 122.00. If not good by Bakersfield I'll divert there and just wait.

Thanks for all the help I will bring back pictures from the trip.
 
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