First Lesson

georgewdean

georgewdean

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
26
Location
Denton DFW Texas
Display Name
Display name:
George Dean
If you do a search, you will see a number of months ago I asked about going to the flashy flight school at the airport with the new planes but young CFI's building time OR do to an old timer with 45 years experience, lives in a airpark and flies a 1975 piper cherokee 28-140. I went with the "Graybeard"

Amazing guy! Great instructor! I am lucky.

The plane is amazing to me. Super smooth. Great flyer. It just felt right.

It seems 1975 28-140s are reasonable priced too if I were to buy one.

Do most guys buy the same plane they trained in?? I could see the familiarity with it is a huge plus. I am NOT ready to break out the check! Just looking to learn more.

I am ready to buy a piece of property in that airport community though! :)
 
Hey George I remember that post. I'm very happy that you feel you made the right choice. yes the Cherokee 140 is a fantastic plane and a great trainer. Some folks do buy the same plane or type they train in but I'd say most don't because they want to move up to something that is faster and carrys more weigh. If the 140 fits your bill you have not made a mistake buying a good one. If you want to move up to a Tiger say which is faster or something else. Thats very common too. Once you get your ppl the familiarity thing isn't going to be such a big deal as it won't take much to get you transitioned from a 140 to say a Tiger or 172 or Archer.

As a matter of Fact PM Spike Cutler on this board. He flies out of Addison I bet he gives you a ride in his bonanza then see how you feel about sticking with the 140 LOL.

Glad things are going well with your training and don't be a stranger here!
 
Thanks..

A Cherokee Six is my ultimate goal with five in my family.

I will certainly be around.

I made myself lose 30 pounds before starting my training. :)

George
 
Oh boy, now you'll never get him into a high wing. :no:
 
Excellent, glad to hear you're pursuing it!

May I suggest a Cherokee 180 (PA28-180) as a good start for your airplane ownership experiences - It's a bit faster and more capable (range, useful load, etc.) than a Cherokee 140, but otherwise will fly very much the same. Another option would be an Archer, which is similar to the Cherokee 180 but is slightly longer (more back seat room) and has a tapered wing.

Get some cross-country time in the Cherokee 180/Archer, then move on to the Six. :yes:
 
I remember that thread. Once again, welcome to the community.

I would (and did) opt for a slightly larger airplane. My thought is you should buy the airplane you can carry your family in. Economics may make an upgrade later into quite an issue. Judging from your photo and the comment about losing weight, you will probably be personally more comfortable in the larger airplane, too.

I would also suggest getting your CFI to fly with your wife a few times and get her comfortable with a small plane. Make sure he tells her what a safe flier you are becoming. You may have a huge problem getting your wife to fly or let you fly with the children at first. Be proactive.
 
One way to look at it is to determine whether most of your flights will involve your family. If so, Cherokee 6 is a pretty good bet.

If most (like 95% of your flights) will be solo or you and the wifey, then go with a smaller, less expensive plane and rent when you need to carry everyone. It'll be cheaper in the long run.
 
SkyHog said:
One way to look at it is to determine whether most of your flights will involve your family. If so, Cherokee 6 is a pretty good bet.

If most (like 95% of your flights) will be solo or you and the wifey, then go with a smaller, less expensive plane and rent when you need to carry everyone. It'll be cheaper in the long run.
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While this works for some, I don't think it's generally a good idea because unless you do a fairly significant number of flights with your family in the larger plane, you aren't likely to be as well "in tune" with that plane as you are with the smaller one you own and fly more regularly. And I think this is especially true early in a pilot's flying career when the positive effects of training and practice fade more quickly. So IMO if a relatively low time pilot expects to make flights with their family and they want to own an airplane, they should consider buying an airplane sufficient to that task and fly it enough to become comfortable with it.
 
That and how many FBOs have 6-seat aircraft on their rental lines these days?


Trapper John
 
georgewdean said:
Thanks..

A Cherokee Six is my ultimate goal with five in my family.

I will certainly be around.

I made myself lose 30 pounds before starting my training. :)

George
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To answer your earlier question: no, most pilots don't end up buying an airplane of the same type as they trained in for their PPL. Typically, trainers (and the Cherokee 140 certainly fits that description) are insufficient for the needs/wants of new pilots as they are usually designed and equipped for the specific mission of economical and safe training. That normally means that they won't carry much, might only have two seats, and have a pretty limited range, any one of which makes them pretty unsuitable for cross country trips with the family. Of course there are exceptions, some folks just want an airplane to fly solo or solo+1 on short trips, the main mission being either pure flying pleasure or airborne commuting, and for those a small trainer may be just the right airplane.

There's also the issue of buying an airplane you can afford to fly and one who's complexity is commesurate with the pilot's experience level. This in itself doesn't suggest that a small trainer is the appropriate first ownership experience, rather that (as you seem to have grockked) you probably shouldn't shoot for what you consider to be your "uitimate airplane" right after getting your PP certificate either. You should also consider that as you gain more experience with different airplanes your "final" target may change, which is another reason to expect that your first airplane purchase won't likely be your last.
 
Trapper John said:
That and how many FBOs have 6-seat aircraft on their rental lines these days?


Trapper John
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I've seen several but they often come with requirements for an IR and at least a couple hundred hours of flight time.
 
Welcome back, and I'm glad that you've started lessons and are happy with your instructor!

Everyone has different theories on airplane ownership. You'll need to figure out what works for you. A big aspect of it is what you can afford. The reality is that it won't take long for you to easily outgrow that Cherokee 140. If you have 5 in the family, you'll want at least a Cherokee 6, but to practically transport them a light twin is probably a better option (I'm partial to my Aztec, but have been a big fan of the Beech twins I've had the opportunity to fly).

Some people I talk to say that you should buy your second plane first. What that means is that rather than starting off buying an easy starter plane, you're probably better off renting to get through at least your private (and probably instrument) and then buying a more advanced plane, whatever that may be. I suppose by most people's standards I bought my third plane first with the Aztec, and haven't regretted it once. However, by the time I bought it I also had 200 hours, including about 80 in a Mooney, so I'd gotten a decent amount of complex time. Going straight from the Archer to the Aztec would likely have been a bit much.

I'd suggest you don't buy a plane until you've got your private and instrument, and have gotten exposure to enough different sorts of airplanes that you'll have a better idea of what you really want.
 
Glad to hear you found an instructor who suits... some old-timers are sharper than others, but 45 years counts for a lot, especially if a lot of those years were spent teaching. He should have a good feel for how to get you on your way with a solid foundation, without wasting your time and money. And his hangar tales will be more entertaining. :D

I can't advise much on the "first airplane" choice, having only about an hour of loggable Cherokee 6 time, and no other low-wing Piper time. The Six is a really nice, capable bird, flies like a big 140 or 180, and it's not as complex as a retractable twin, but yes, there is a "Catch-22"... if you start with the big one, will it make economical sense if you're mostly flying it alone or with one pax? And if you start with a 4-seater, will you find yourself having to occasionally find a rental that will haul everyone (with all the checkout/minimums/currency hassles that implies), or leaving someone at home?

Not knowing how often you'd need the bigger plane, all I'll say is that if you see yourself flying more often for proficiency and $100 hamburgers than taking the entire family on trips, you might be better off with a 4-seater.

But in the end, it's merely a question of money... :D
 
Thanks guys. You rock.

Loads of information here.

Like I said, I'm not breaking out my check book yet except for training. But, having a vision is the fuel. Living the Dream is the goal.

Hell, a nice Cherokee Six is $100Kish. People blow that one TWO cars every three years.

I DO have a question or two.

  1. If you OWNED a place like a Cherokee Six, what do you imagine your maintenance, annuals, the 3000 houry thingy,... would cost per operational hour? So, if you flew three hours a week. Should be you putting away $50 a hour to future costs? Is there a general equation for single engine planes??
  2. How long does one generally finance an airplane? Is it a 15 year note?

My current instructor will let us rent his plane for $75 an hour wet. I will rent that til he retires!

George
 
georgewdean said:
Thanks guys. You rock.

Loads of information here.

Like I said, I'm not breaking out my check book yet except for training. But, having a vision is the fuel. Living the Dream is the goal.

Hell, a nice Cherokee Six is $100Kish. People blow that one TWO cars every three years.

I DO have a question or two.

  1. If you OWNED a place like a Cherokee Six, what do you imagine your maintenance, annuals, the 3000 houry thingy,... would cost per operational hour? So, if you flew three hours a week. Should be you putting away $50 a hour to future costs? Is there a general equation for single engine planes??
  2. How long does one generally finance an airplane? Is it a 15 year note?
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1) I don't know about any "3000 hr thingy" but on a high powered fixed gear single you can usually figure $1000-2000/year for the annual inspection (along with an occasional $5000 surprise). Hourly costs excluding fuel ought to be in the $30-50/hr range including engine overhaul costs.

As to putting the money away or paying as you fix things, that's a personal financial question. If you are the sole owner and confident you can handle the $35k cost of an overhaul (includes $5000 labor and $1500 for the prop) there's no need to set up a separate account but if not then religiously adding the appropriate amount to a maintenance fund will keep you solvent when crunch time comes. It's not uncommon to find an airplane for sale with a runnout engine and an owner that can't afford to do the overhaul. Even more common is to find aircraft that have been sitting idle for years for the same reason coupled with a reluctance to sell at a realistic price.

IIRC, financing options run the gamut from a 3 year note to a loan with no time frame (renewable note). AFaIK, 15-25 years isn't uncommon. That said, a lot of owners (myself included) believe that it's a bad idea to borrow money to purchase toys. One thing is fairly certain, unless you expect to come into a large windfall in the next 5-10 years, you will end up being able to afford more airplane sooner if you stick with a cash only program. If you expect to make enough business use of the plane then financing may make as much sense as it would for any other tool.

My current instructor will let us rent his plane for $75 an hour wet. I will rent that til he retires!

George
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That's not bad for a trainer (I assume you mean the Cherokee 140, if that's for a Six it's a steal).

One item you also need to know is that it's extremely unlikely that you can cut your flying costs by owning your own airplane. There are many benefits of ownership but saving money is rarely a realistic one. What you do get is the ability to outfit to suit your wants/needs, better availability, personal pride of ownership, and knowing you're the one who flew it last so there shouldn't be any surprises lurking under the cowl that you could have noticed on the last flight. Also know that while the availability does improve (no minimum hours for multiday trips, no reserving weeks or months in advance, no penalties for changes in plans, no scratched flights because the previous renter didn't get back, etc), there are occasions where a rental fleet has the advantage on availability, specifically not having to plan trips around annual inspections and engine overhauls (assuming the rental fleet has more than one suitable airplane).

You might also want to consider sharing a plane with one or two partners. If you go that route make sure your potential partners are compatible in every way imaginable including (but not limited to) financial resources, anal retentiveness, ability and willingness to spend time working on the plane (cleaning, oil changes etc), scheduling, and usage expectations. Generally there's not much point in going beyond a total of three partners IMO. Having partners cuts the fixed costs (insurance, hangar rent, annual inspection), and can have a small positive effect on operating costs due to more frequent use. Going from sole ownership to a two way partnership cuts the fixed costs in half, adding a third partner decreases each original partner's costs by an additional 17% of the total. Adding a fourth is more likely to generate more conflicts (twice as many potential conflicts of a personal or schelduling nature) than the meager 8% additional reduction is worth. A partnership can be looked at as a means to afford more airplane or to decrease the cost of owning the same airplane you were considering for sole ownership.
 
Thanks.. overhaul is what I meant by "thingy". Learning as I go.

Makes sense.

I agree about the paying cash! Truly. $30-$50 an hour is about what I thought. Thanks.

George
 
georgewdean said:
Thanks.. overhaul is what I meant by "thingy".
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OK. But it's more often a 1200-1800 hr "thingy" depending on the engine and usage (more hours per year usually means more hours between overhauls). Also while the engine manufacturers specify a "TBO" (time between overhauls) in months and hours, a part 91 owner need not pay them much attention and can extend that period as much as they are comfortable with. And many engines don't reach TBO before needing overhaul.

Learning as I go.
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As are most of us.
 
gismo said:
OK. But it's more often a 1200-1800 hr "thingy" depending on the engine and usage (more hours per year usually means more hours between overhauls). Also while the engine manufacturers specify a "TBO" (time between overhauls) in months and hours, a part 91 owner need not pay them much attention and can extend that period as much as they are comfortable with. And many engines don't reach TBO before needing overhaul.

As are most of us.
Click to expand...


are you saying, most PPL pilots overhaul every 1200 - 1800 hours on the engine??

AND, the more you fly it, the longer you can go before needing an overhaul?

George
 
George it varies from engine to engine or plane to plane but the most common you will here is a 2000 hr TBO (when the mfg recomends overhaul) some of the continetial engines have an 1800 hr TBO and I think some have a 1500 hr TBO but that is not to usual these days I think they are on the geared engines found on the Cessna 175 and such.

The more you fly your plane the shorter it will be before you get to TBO BUT flying the plane is good for the plane. Planes and engines do not like to sit. moisture collects in the engine and won't get burnt off. I think if you hardly fly the plane your gonna get more Mx problems earlier.

some folks fly their planes way past TBO. They take care of the plane and engine and monitor the oil etc TBO is a manufacturers recommendation not a requirement.

By the way $75 per hour wet is a good price!
 
georgewdean said:
are you saying, most PPL pilots overhaul every 1200 - 1800 hours on the engine??
Click to expand...
Not exactly. Engine TBOs vary from 1500 to 2000 hours with a 12 year calendar limit as well and some operators have been able to extend some to as much as 3500 hours (but that's rare IME). But an airplane not flown for hire doesn't have to stick with the manufacturer's schedule so it comes down to how long you are comfortable running the engine. Also, if an engine is near or past the recommended TBO and a cylinder or two fails it's often considered to be financially foolish to make a repair rather than overhaul the engine YRMV.

AND, the more you fly it, the longer you can go before needing an overhaul?

George
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Infrequent use tends to shorten engine life in terms of hours (which is one reason why there's also a calendar time limit). I believe this is mostly due to corrosion issues.
 
No No George thats not what Lance is saying. He is saying they recommend overhaul for a 2000 TBO at either 2000 hours or 12 years what ever comes first.
 
Now, that makes sense! 12 years....

So, if you are looking at a place with 1000 hrs SMOH... its coming due soon. Better have $30K ready to do the work?

G
 
georgewdean said:
Now, that makes sense! 12 years....

So, if you are looking at a place with 1000 hrs SMOH... its coming due soon. Better have $30K ready to do the work?
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Not at all - If that 1000 hours came in the last 5 years you should be fine. If it's a 1965 airplane still on its original engine with 1000 hours, break out the checkbook.

There's no hard-and-fast "the engine needs overhauling after x hours or x years" rule. Each engine needs overhauling when it needs it - And you should be prepared for an overhaul, if necessary, even if the engine is brand spankin' new.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Not at all - If that 1000 hours came in the last 5 years you should be fine. If it's a 1965 airplane still on its original engine with 1000 hours, break out the checkbook.

There's no hard-and-fast "the engine needs overhauling after x hours or x years" rule. Each engine needs overhauling when it needs it - And you should be prepared for an overhaul, if necessary, even if the engine is brand spankin' new.
Click to expand...

Well, that might be an exception since a brand new engine should still be under warranty.
 
There are lots of engines in planes (like the right engine in my plane) that are more than 12 years old and still are running fine.

It comes down to a lot of variables. On the Mooney I used to fly, the engine had 1800 hours on it when they bought it. It had suffered a prop strike at 1000 hours, and had been torn down. The thing looked pretty much new, and when the plane left my sight it had something like 2100 hours on the engine. Now it's at around 2200, maybe a bit more. We saw no reason why it wouldn't make 2500 or better. I'm hoping to run the engines on my Aztec to 2500 or better, but that may or may not happen, once again due to poor treatment under previous owners.

Another big deal is where the engine was last overhauled. Said Mooney was overhauled by Teledyne Mattituck (funny for a Lycoming, but anyway). That's a reputable shop, and it had genuine Lycoming cylinders on it that I believe were new when installed. By comparison, a friend of mine bought a Cherokee 180 with 1000 SMOH, but it had been overhauled by the owner and an A&P in a barn. Not that such overhauls can't come out well, but this one didn't. I would be a lot more trusting of an overhaul performed by a reputable shop than an unknown.
 
IMHO people worry too much about OH, not enough about big ticket unexpected stuff, like, say crankshaft ADs. If you want, you can runout your engine and just go buy another plane (financed at more attractive terms than an overhaul, if you don't have cash lying around). Lots of folks prefer to buy runouts so they can supervise the OH themselves.

On the other hand, you can get wacked pretty hard by unexpected ADs, like the aforementioned crankshaft one. Prop ADs. Unexpected component failures like a turbo bearing failing. Shouldn't happen, but it does. $40,000 planes have $1000 points of failure, just like $400,000 planes. Make sure you've got cash in the bank, say $5000, for the unanticipated failure.

Me? Started in a Sundowner to keep things simple, got my IR. Moved up to a Turbo 182. Bigger engine, heavier plane, blue knob. Then i stepped up to the Matrix. Bendy legs. Rode in a Saratoga yesterday and all I could think was "I used to think this looked roomy." All this in not much more than 3.5yrs. Not the most financially smart way to do it, but I'm happy.
 
flyersfan31 said:
IMHO people worry too much about OH, not enough about big ticket unexpected stuff, like, say crankshaft ADs. If you want, you can runout your engine and just go buy another plane (financed at more attractive terms than an overhaul, if you don't have cash lying around). Lots of folks prefer to buy runouts so they can supervise the OH themselves.

On the other hand, you can get wacked pretty hard by unexpected ADs, like the aforementioned crankshaft one. Prop ADs. Unexpected component failures like a turbo bearing failing. Shouldn't happen, but it does. $40,000 planes have $1000 points of failure, just like $400,000 planes. Make sure you've got cash in the bank, say $5000, for the unanticipated failure.
Click to expand...

True, and that's something worth being mentioned, but you generally can't anticpate ADs that come out through the crystal ball. Engine overhaul, however, is pretty simple to anticipate.

It seems to me that the people who keep their planes for a number of years and fly them a lot are the ones who have the nicest, most reliable planes with engines that last the longest. Main reason seems to be that they get used, they get what they need, and they'll usually do little repairs over the course of ownership that turn the plane into something really nice.

Financially, it doesn't make sense to do this with a number of planes, though, and will cost you more money. So renting to get yourself up to the level you want probably makes more sense, and then when you have the experience, buy what you ultimately want.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
True, and that's something worth being mentioned, but you generally can't anticpate ADs that come out through the crystal ball. Engine overhaul, however, is pretty simple to anticipate.
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Agreed. Let me clarify.

By all means, calculate your OH hourly cost and put that in the piggy bank.

But make sure you have a couple grand in cash already socked away in that piggy bank for the crystal ball. That $7k hit for a crank AD will be less painful if you don't have to pay for it at 23% on your credit card.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Agreed. Let me clarify.

By all means, calculate your OH hourly cost and put that in the piggy bank.

But make sure you have a couple grand in cash already socked away in that piggy bank for the crystal ball. That $7k hit for a crank AD will be less painful if you don't have to pay for it at 23% on your credit card.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%. Also, expect to spend a bunch of money in your first year of ownership. I know I have, although granted close to half of that was due to upgrades and "while we're there" repairs. Ultimately, though, such items will save me money. At least, I can pretend that it will. ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Agreed 100%. Also, expect to spend a bunch of money in your first year of ownership. I know I have, although granted close to half of that was due to upgrades and "while we're there" repairs. Ultimately, though, such items will save me money. At least, I can pretend that it will. ;)
Click to expand...

A popular notion is that you should reserve 10% of your purchase price for first year repairs.
 
Amen to everything said in here about ownership!!!
I did buy the same plane as I was training in (C-172)...and now use it for my IR. You may want to consider a leaseback deal with the club-flight school for the plane. It gets flown ALOT, but thats GOOD for the engine. Worst thing that can take its toll on an engine is for the plane to sit for weeks or months on end unused, which really wears down internal components on startups. I also trust the FBO mechanics who maintain the fleet..they are excellent. I am about breaking even on the costs of my lessons, use of the plane and MX/Insurance so far. We'll see how the winter training season impacts the revenues!!! Take a look at the 'leaseback sticky message' in the posts
 
Another option for the somewhat financially challenged is to look into is flying clubs, These vary from 1 airplane with 3 or 4 members to clubs with many airplanes and members. We have a local club that has 6 airplanes (1-C-152, 2- 172's and 3 - 182's) They had a 206 for a while but go rid of it a few years back, I don't know why, Probably didn't get flown enough) the advantages of a larger club are that you get to share the costs with other members and with the larger clubs you have a selection of airplanes to fly. Meaning if you want to go shoot touch and goes you can fly the C-152 if you want to go cross country for a week you can take the 182. If one plane is down for maintenance you can usually take another. The up and down side is you have to deal with a club enviroment and the typical issues clubs (of any type) have. The Social interaction with other pilots can be a positive.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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