First-hand article on the Brazil mid-air

I read that last night - so sad. Those Brazilian pilots saved their bacon for sure - had they hit full on they would have all gone down.
 
NYT Article said:
“Nice flying,” I told the pilots as I passed them. Actually, I inserted an unprintable word between “nice” and “flying.”
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Amen to that!
 
Think about this for a minute, what are the odds of this happening, you have an area of extremely minimal air traffic, at high altitude where there is even less traffic, the numbers have to be astronomical.
 
I wonder if either aircraft had TCAS? I thought it was pretty much standard on airliners and biz jets these days.....

Pete
 
Tcas

vontresc said:
I wonder if either aircraft had TCAS? I thought it was pretty much standard on airliners and biz jets these days.....

Pete
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TCAS would likely have prevented this. I'm remembering the one where it didn't- the Russian airliner loaded with school children and the DHL Boeing freighter near the German/Belgian border a few year's ago. The Russians went against their TCAS instructions and a collision ensued. Reminiscent of the Comair LEX deal, there was a lone controller on duty.
 
Re: Tcas

Dick Madding said:
TCAS would likely have prevented this. I'm remembering the one where it didn't- the Russian airliner loaded with school children and the DHL Boeing freighter near the German/Belgian border a few year's ago. The Russians went against their TCAS instructions and a collision ensued. Reminiscent of the Comair LEX deal, there was a lone controller on duty.
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IIRC only one of the two jets were in contact with ATC and ATC gave them instructions conflicting with their TCAS which resulted in both jets descending - had the jet listening to ATC disregarded the controller and followed their TCAS no mid-air would have resulted.

As a result of this I think in the US, TCAS now superscedes ATC instructions?! Well, I'm not sure. So please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Tcas

inav8r said:
IIRC only one of the two jets were in contact with ATC and ATC gave them instructions conflicting with their TCAS which resulted in both jets descending - had the jet listening to ATC disregarded the controller and followed their TCAS no mid-air would have resulted.

As a result of this I think in the US, TCAS now superscedes ATC instructions?! Well, I'm not sure. So please correct me if I'm wrong.
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I Advanced Googled exact "mid air collision" and all "Germany DHL". Here is a good one from that search: http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/compendium/incidents_and_accidents/Ueberlingen2002.html

My understanding is that TCAS has always superceded ATC instructions in the US. It was only in IACO that this was unclear.

Here's a synopsis quote on another high altitude mid-air:
1997Sep 13, A German military transport, a Soviet-made Tupelov-154 jet, was reported crashed with 24 people off the coast of Angola [Namibia]. A midair collision with a USAF C-141 Starlifter cargo plane was reported and the total dead reached 32. [No TCAS on the Air Force C-141. Don't know about the Tu-154] Poor communications and faulty regional traffic control were cited as the cause. On Mar 31, 1998 the German government reported that the German crew was at fault for flying in airspace reserved for westbound traffic.
 
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mid-air odds

wesleyj said:
Think about this for a minute, what are the odds of this happening, you have an area of extremely minimal air traffic, at high altitude where there is even less traffic, the numbers have to be astronomical.
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I have thought about it- a lot. This is the only circumstance in which a pilot is not in total control of his destiny in the air. It has occurred before- The Russian/DHL mentioned below and the C141 USAir Force climbing/German-operated TU-154 transport descending at something like 32,000 ft. near Angola were similar- high altitude in "controlled" airspace.

On the subject of mid-airs in general, recent changes have decreased the 'astronomical' odds of this happening among us lower altitude operators: 1. The use of GPS, the accuracy of which tends to put us on exactly the same track between two points, and 2. UAVs increasingly operating in our airspace.


Email me madding@dnaco.net for some thoughts on mid-air avoidance practices.
 
Both had TCAS. And US training dictates that you immediately comply with TCAS instructions (Resolution Advisories) that specify a climb or descent, or monitoring of vertical speed. On the 737-800 the Flight Director and VSI will show the appropriate manuever in addition to the aural alerts.

I am pretty sure that GOL pilots are trained to follow TCAS, but I don't know that for certain.

The reason TCAS RAs are mandatory is that there is logic in them that ensures that two TCAS airplanes will never give their pilots conflicting instructions. One will always indicate one course of action, and the other will indicate a course of action that will increase separation. ATC may see the same conflict and issue instructions, but TCAS is always the one you're supposed to listen to.

I've observed one airline's training and they go so far as to purposely give "bad" ATC instructions in conflict with TCAS, and pilots are expected to follow the TCAS. Like the "Terrain" warning, there is supposed to be an immediate response by the crew.
 
smigaldi said:
Time for him to also buy a lottery ticket.
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Are you kidding Scott? They already won the lottery!

FWIW David Rimmer the Sr. VP of the charter company that bought the jet and who was aboard the plane is a friend and former co-worker of my brothers. My Brother put a call into him and when they hook up he will conference me in.
 
Assessing Technology

TMetzinger said:
Both had TCAS. And US training dictates that you immediately comply with TCAS instructions (Resolution Advisories) that specify a climb or descent, or monitoring of vertical speed. On the 737-800 the Flight Director and VSI will show the appropriate manuever in addition to the aural alerts.
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So some combination of TCAS failure, pilot's ignoring, or delaying response occurred. And both sets of pilots/equipment had to participate. It will be interesting to learn if the investigators hear Bitchin' Betty over the Embraer CVR. Like the pilot of the Comair, the surviving pilots will have a tough time discussing the details of the accident.

With the tracks intersecting well off 180 degrees [both the wingtip and tail were damaged on the Embraer], 'see & avoid' would have been really tough even if a crew was particularly vigilant. I can tell you from experience that the Embraer would have been virtually invisible up until the last few seconds at a relative closure of approx. 1000mph.

Remember that objects on a collision course don't move relative to your aircraft/eyes.
 
Re: Assessing Technology

If they were both at FL370 are reports are indicating, and the B737 was headed SE and the Embraer was headed NW, would the Embraer have been at an incorrect cardinal flight level? I see the AIM only specifies the concept of cardinal flight levels to VFR flight, so maybe this is a moot point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_Aéreos_Flight_1907

The story said the investigators think the 737 pilots saw the Embraer in time to take evasive action (a vigorous bank away) and that the 737's wing tip took out the tip of the Legacy's wing and empennage... it's hard to imagine that "touch" causing enough damage to a 737 to down it. It's a little easier to imagine them getting into an unusual attitude after an abrupt maneuver. Only time will tell. Either way, it's a tragedy. I can't imagine how the pilots of the smaller jet must feel.
 
I can sure see how neither crew would have seen the other plane in time to avoid it completely. I am wondering why the 737 was knocked out of the sky given the relatively light damage to the Embraer. Perhaps the 737 pilot(s) overstressed their airplane in the evasion attempt?
 
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