First Flight in a Cirrus- A question and a question

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Yesterday I had my first flight in a Cirrus.

WOW! That thing does the Mighty Mouse Up Up and Awaaaaaaay

It was a short hop. We put 0.7 on the hobbs. Mark is an impressive pilot. He confessed to 1700hours with the major share of it, in THAT airplane and it clearly shows in his confidence and skill.

The airplane is also impressive as well as the creature features. Mark had video game type music playing, sourced from an XM radio station over the Bose ANR headsets (I'm almost sold on a headset upgrade).

While enroute, Mark treated me to some time on the stick. Reviewing the FARs, I found out that I could log the time, more for memory's sake than anything else and so I did. But I forgot Mark's lastname for the logbook entry. Do I have to have it?

After we returned, Mark pulls to the pumps to refuel. I'm pressed for time as we returned a few minutes later than expected. I had to leave, but I left feeling that something was amiss. What's the proper protocol (way of showing gratitude) when a guy offers to take you flying in his airplane?

BTW- I took pics of the Groundspeed while mark was showing off. This is in a shallow decent. Below are the GPS pics of 199kts on the way to 203kts. He then leveled off, pulled back to 90% power and it settled to 185kts (sorry no pic).
 

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Could offer to pick up some of the fuel. Or even something like let me take you out to dinner or buy you a beer, or maybe next time you fly, offer him a trip w/ you.
 
Jaybird180 said:
While enroute, Mark treated me to some time on the stick. Reviewing the FARs, I found out that I could log the time, more for memory's sake than anything else and so I did. But I forgot Mark's lastname for the logbook entry. Do I have to have it?
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No, you don't need his name in your logbook unless he is a qualified instructor and provided dual instruction. If he provided dual, I would ask for a signature, CFI#, and expiration.

Jaybird180 said:
After we returned, Mark pulls to the pumps to refuel. I'm pressed for time as we returned a few minutes later than expected. I had to leave, but I left feeling that something was amiss. What's the proper protocol (way of showing gratitude) when a guy offers to take you flying in his airplane?
Click to expand...

I offer to buy lunch and/or help out with fuel expense.
 
Jaybird180 said:
BTW- I took pics of the Groundspeed while mark was showing off. This is in a shallow decent. Below are the GPS pics of 199kts on the way to 203kts. He then leveled off, pulled back to 90% power and it settled to 185kts (sorry no pic).
Click to expand...

I'm guessing this was an SR22 turbo, given the speeds you have listed. Just something to think about - at 90-100% power, a lot of airplanes will go faster than what most people get out of them... for a while, until the engines start having issues. There's a reason why 65% is something of the standard for cruise to get maximum service life out of engines, especially turbo'd engines (be it turbocharged or turbonormalized). I'm telling you this mostly because I don't want you to go buy a plane with an expensive engine, run it at 90-100% power, and then wonder why you're having expensive engine problems. :)

Glad that you had fun! I agree with the answers already given.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm guessing this was an SR22 turbo, given the speeds you have listed. Just something to think about - at 90-100% power, a lot of airplanes will go faster than what most people get out of them... for a while, until the engines start having issues. There's a reason why 65% is something of the standard for cruise to get maximum service life out of engines, especially turbo'd engines (be it turbocharged or turbonormalized). I'm telling you this mostly because I don't want you to go buy a plane with an expensive engine, run it at 90-100% power, and then wonder why you're having expensive engine problems. :)

Glad that you had fun! I agree with the answers already given.
Click to expand...

Normally aspirated
 
Jaybird180 said:
Normally aspirated
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...with a tailwind.:wink2:

Offering to buy food or drink is always a good one. Offering to pay for fuel can open a number of worm cans unless all the 61.113 i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

If you're logging it only as PIC time on the basis of "sole manipulator of an aircraft for which you were rated," you don't need his name. If you're logging it as "training received," you'd need his signature, not just his name.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're logging it as "training received," you'd need his signature, not just his name.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize that a signature was required in order to log dual time. When I was working on my glider rating, I often wouldn't pester the instructor for a signature because he had his hands full with other students after my lesson...
 
Ron Levy said:
...with a tailwind.:wink2:

Offering to buy food or drink is always a good one. Offering to pay for fuel can open a number of worm cans unless all the 61.113 i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

If you're logging it only as PIC time on the basis of "sole manipulator of an aircraft for which you were rated," you don't need his name. If you're logging it as "training received," you'd need his signature, not just his name.
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Out of the total flight, I only credited myself with 0.1 PIC time.

You hit the nail on the head with the fuel issue. I wasn't sure what would be appropriate, if in sincere charity I could cause other unintended consequences.
 
1200AGL said:
I didn't realize that a signature was required in order to log dual time. When I was working on my glider rating, I often wouldn't pester the instructor for a signature because he had his hands full with other students after my lesson...
Click to expand...

Look up 61.189 and try to find that instructor...if you plan to advance to higher ratings/certificates that require the examiner to go through your logbook, those hours might not count.

Bob Gardner
 
Yup, dinner and a drink or two is proper... I'm not over concerned about fuel because he made the offer (I assume) and he was gonna go fly it no matter what...

BTW, local fella who owns a manufacturing plant has one of the Cessna version of the Cirrus. Second annual now at roughly 400 hours... First was under warranty by Cessna and all the shop the factory uses found were usual items at 235 hours, change the oil, etc..
This one was his nickle, done by the same shop and he told his old mechanic the bill was twelve grand - boy that will take your breath away... I don't have details at this time... I will post once I run into Fred and ask... The point of this is that just because it is new does not mean you get away for cheap at the annual...

denny-o
 
I split the post to keep the issues separate...
As far as whether or not it is 'legal' to pay some, all, part, nothing, of the expenses of a flight I have one rule of thumb - you only get in trouble with the government if you lie... Ask Martha, Roger, and a whole bunch of well known news headliners...

If some putz of an FAA employee (that is all they are and if they were not sucking from the FAA trough they would be on welfare) demands why I did, or did not, pay this or that amount my answer is "That is none of your *(&%$#@! business... Now pizz off!"
Since every word is the absolute truth, there is not a thing they can do about it...

denny-o
 
bobmrg said:
Look up 61.189 and try to find that instructor...if you plan to advance to higher ratings/certificates that require the examiner to go through your logbook, those hours might not count.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Thanks. Good to know. The club records are all computerized, so I shouldn't have difficulty backfilling those signatures.
 
Ron Levy said:
Offering to pay for fuel can open a number of worm cans unless all the 61.113 i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
Click to expand...

Seriously?? So if you go for a ride in a friend's brand new Cirrus and fly around a bit and return and he pulls up to the pump you're going to say "Sorry, dude, due to concerns with 61.113 you're SOL..."?
 
Dr. O said:
If some putz of an FAA employee (that is all they are and if they were not sucking from the FAA trough they would be on welfare)
denny-o
Click to expand...

I know alot of Dentist that come under the "putz" category, sleazy individuals that couldn't run a hotdog stand if they had to make an honest living.

Shall I lump you into this all inclusive category as well?:sosp:
 
1200AGL said:
I didn't realize that a signature was required in order to log dual time. When I was working on my glider rating, I often wouldn't pester the instructor for a signature because he had his hands full with other students after my lesson...
Click to expand...
It's your instructor's responsibility to know and abide by this rule.
Sec. 61.189

Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
Click to expand...
And it's your responsibility to know and abide by this one:

61.51 said:
(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the instructor's authorized signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
​
Click to expand...
 
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Two things you won't hear me say in that fuel pump situation:

As a Pilot: "That will be $50 for the flight."
As a Passenger: "Here's my $50 for the flight."

...especially if I see someone from the FAA nearby.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Yesterday I had my first flight in a Cirrus.

WOW! That thing does the Mighty Mouse Up Up and Awaaaaaaay

It was a short hop. We put 0.7 on the hobbs. Mark is an impressive pilot. He confessed to 1700hours with the major share of it, in THAT airplane and it clearly shows in his confidence and skill.

The airplane is also impressive as well as the creature features. Mark had video game type music playing, sourced from an XM radio station over the Bose ANR headsets (I'm almost sold on a headset upgrade).

While enroute, Mark treated me to some time on the stick. Reviewing the FARs, I found out that I could log the time, more for memory's sake than anything else and so I did. But I forgot Mark's lastname for the logbook entry. Do I have to have it?

After we returned, Mark pulls to the pumps to refuel. I'm pressed for time as we returned a few minutes later than expected. I had to leave, but I left feeling that something was amiss. What's the proper protocol (way of showing gratitude) when a guy offers to take you flying in his airplane?

BTW- I took pics of the Groundspeed while mark was showing off. This is in a shallow decent. Below are the GPS pics of 199kts on the way to 203kts. He then leveled off, pulled back to 90% power and it settled to 185kts (sorry no pic).
Click to expand...



pffff... GS is pointless if you don't mention the wind... :)

IMG_1698.jpg



Seriously though, cool plane.. would love to try one out some time. How did you like the side stick?
 
It was a little awkward. I was on the right side and didn't have a stable position. I could understand how it would feel intuitive on the left side.


BTW- the left seat of this airplane seemed to fit me like a glove.
 
Jaybird180 said:
It was a little awkward. I was on the right side and didn't have a stable position. I could understand how it would feel intuitive on the left side.


BTW- the left seat of this airplane seemed to fit me like a glove.
Click to expand...

They are nice planes that if they fit into your budget and mission can be very easy to live with.
 
Ron Levy said:
Two things you won't hear me say in that fuel pump situation:

As a Pilot: "That will be $50 for the flight."
As a Passenger: "Here's my $50 for the flight."

...especially if I see someone from the FAA nearby.
Click to expand...

That would be bag o' hammers stupid.

I prefer to say nothing, and reach the card swiper before the owner.
 
Exactly. And I could find nothing in the FAR's prohibiting you from giving or receiving a gift of fuel.
 
dmccormack said:
I prefer to say nothing, and reach the card swiper before the owner.
Click to expand...


Old Geek said:
Exactly. And I could find nothing in the FAR's prohibiting you from giving or receiving a gift of fuel.
Click to expand...

I doubt, I really seriously doubt you would have an Inspector standing around with nothing better to do than to worry about what someone is paying for gas. :rolleyes2:
 
dmccormack said:
That would be bag o' hammers stupid.

I prefer to say nothing, and reach the card swiper before the owner.
Click to expand...

Why would this be a problem? It costs me more than $50 a flight in club fees, insurance, and tach hours. I'm quite sure a Cirrus owner is out way more than that per hour in their planes, It is within the rules to have passengers pay their share, surely everyone here knows this.
 
Old Geek said:
Exactly. And I could find nothing in the FAR's prohibiting you from giving or receiving a gift of fuel.
Click to expand...

The FAR's are quite clear that you can have passengers pay for their share, in my case anyway, the chief FAA head honcho himself could be standing there while my passenger pays for fuel, I would be well withing regs.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I doubt, I really seriously doubt you would have an Inspector standing around with nothing better to do than to worry about what someone is paying for gas. :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...
You never know who's watching. An FAA Inspector was at the airport on other business, and some idiot in a Pitts did something stupid on takeoff. The inspector heard the plane taking off, turned, and watched. I was standing next to him, and also watching. I ended up as a witness to both the event and the Inspector's meeting with the pilot after he landed.

Of course, I doubt that an Inspector would be writing up someone for an enforcement action over that fuel pump scenario, but I can see a gentle reminder about what is/is not permitted by 61.113, and further action only if the pilot then gives the Inspector reason to dig further.

That said, why give anyone reason to look further by making a statement or having money change hands in a public place? And why, if you would have made the flight anyway, charge a passenger for gas when you asked them if they wanted to ride along just for the fun of it?
 
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I knew going in to a four hour, round trip, flight - that the pilot and his brother, the passenger, were already going to this lunch / fly-in. I also knew that I probably would not get to sit up front, and my offers of avgas money / buying them lunch got turned down.

Like you, I felt something was wrong. I saw the pilot drooling over filets that were more than $25 per pound in the gift shop (steak ranch location). When he went to the bathroom, I bought some for him and his family (I assumed he had a wife, kids, etc but was not sure).

The smile on his face let me know I had done the right thing. He texted his wife - turns out they were both gourmet cooks - and she texted him back "Thanks Kimberly!!!"

So you can always get creative / take hints from the pilot's personal likes and dislikes.
 
No one 'specs the Spanish Inquisition... << Insert pic here>>
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, why give anyone reason to look further by making a statement or having money change hands in a public place? And why, if you would have made the flight anyway, charge a passenger for gas when you asked them if they wanted to ride along just for the fun of it?
Click to expand...

If someone is dumb enough to say, "Hey! Mister airplane owner and pilot -- let me give you money towards that flight!" out loud within earshot of an FAA Ops type -- well, they'll probably post about it here and we'll find out what really happens. Stand by.
 
dmccormack said:
If someone is dumb enough to say, "Hey! Mister airplane owner and pilot -- let me give you money towards that flight!" out loud within earshot of an FAA Ops type -- well, they'll probably post about it here and we'll find out what really happens. Stand by.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Like you, I felt something was wrong. I saw the pilot drooling over filets that were more than $25 per pound in the gift shop (steak ranch location). When he went to the bathroom, I bought some for him and his family (I assumed he had a wife, kids, etc but was not sure).
Click to expand...

Where are these steak ranch locations and are there any near the East Coast? Damn, I am jealous! I think it would be more like a $2000 burger by the time I made it to a ranch and back from the Northeast.
 
spinfire said:
Where are these steak ranch locations and are there any near the East Coast? Damn, I am jealous! I think it would be more like a $2000 burger by the time I made it to a ranch and back from the Northeast.
Click to expand...

Harris Ranch 3O8 (yes, with the tens of thousands of heads of cattle there we could smell it from 2,000 feet):

6275386302_50dfd0289e_b.jpg
 
Oh man, that looks delicious. According to Foreflight with current winds aloft in my rental Cessna 172 I'll be there in 30 hours (assumes in flight refueling). That comes out to a $3500 steak or so. The good news is after flying 30 hours I can keep the plane for a whole week before returning. The bad news is I will probably be out of Weight and Balance after a week of continuous eating those delicious steaks!

Does the smell of cattle make it a good checkpoint? Perhaps if you are flying under Olfactory Flight Rules...
 
spinfire said:
Oh man, that looks delicious. According to Foreflight with current winds aloft in my rental Cessna 172 I'll be there in 30 hours (assumes in flight refueling). That comes out to a $3500 steak or so. The good news is after flying 30 hours I can keep the plane for a whole week before returning. The bad news is I will probably be out of Weight and Balance after a week of continuous eating those delicious steaks!

Does the smell of cattle make it a good checkpoint? Perhaps if you are flying under Olfactory Flight Rules...
Click to expand...

Nope, someone told me before I went (I was a pax but got to sit up front) that it was "like landing on a band-aid". The runway is pretty small and, like most airports, I did NOT have the field in sight. Oh well.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Nope, someone told me before I went (I was a pax but got to sit up front) that it was "like landing on a band-aid". The runway is pretty small and, like most airports, I did NOT have the field in sight. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Harris Ranch is really hard to spot. It is narrow (30') runway that is parallel to I-5. I had a hard time finding it too.
 
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