First airline biofuel long distance flight?

Ehh. I'll be impressed when it's near 100% bio fuel. Since diesel pickups can run off of biodiesel I wouldn't think it would be hard to get at least diesel piston planes to run mostly on biodiesel...and jets run "basically" on a form of diesel, so I'd think even for turbines it'd be realtively easy to at least have that number much about 20%. Really to me, 20% means nothing. I mean it's a start, but not really significant in terms of fuel.

BTW That video at the beginning was very CRINGE worthy...
 
I read something about the EA-18 Growlers use some sort of biofuel now too. If DOD is concerned enough to invest heavily in alternative energies, that's got my attention.
 
I read something about the EA-18 Growlers use some sort of biofuel now too. If DOD is concerned enough to invest heavily in alternative energies, that's got my attention.

It should get your attention, they paid almost $1,000 a barrel for the stuff in 2001. I think now it's about $400 a barrel.

Meanwhile, yesterday the USGS announced a recently completed survey shows the Permian Basin has another 20 billion barrels of recoverable oil.

Edit: I posted 2 billion originally, it's actually 20 billion.
 
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These kind of articles annoy me. Actually, not the article itself but the politicization in the video.

I'm all for biofuels. Global warming or no global warming, petroleum is a finite resource. Burning it makes no sense if we can burn something else instead. But the spiel in the video about how this is a positive thing with regard to global warming is simply nonsense. Biojet emissions are no cleaner than Jet-A- emissions.

Too much of this whole issue is based upon hatred of oil companies rather than whether or not the technology actually makes sense environmentally.

For example, the hippy lady down the hill actually believes that she's doing the earth a favor by burning wood rather than propane. She raves on about how wood is "carbon-neutral" because the carbon was taken out of the earth and sequestrated in trees a hundred or so years ago. But the same can be said of any carbon-based fuel, when you get right down to it. And regardless of how or when it was sequestrated, when you burn it, the carbon is released now.

When I discussed this with her, she got angry and said, "Well, at least big oil isn't getting my money!" And that's really what it's about for her. She hates oil companies, and therefore she burns wood. And that's fine with me. She can burn dead bodies for all I give a ****. But don't try to tell me that she's doing the earth a favor in the process. She may be infinitesimally hurting "Big Oil" by withholding her business, but she's not doing a damned thing for the earth.

The same goes for this achievement. Regardless of the feedstock, burning jet fuel releases carbon. To the extent that using biomass rather than petroleum for the feedstock preserves a finite resource, I'm all for it. But let's not pretend there's anything "green" about it. Carbon produced from forest waste is no different from carbon pumped out of the earth.

Rich
 
It should get your attention, they paid almost $1,000 a barrel for the stuff in 2001. I think now it's about $400 a barrel.

Meanwhile, yesterday the USGS announced a recently completed survey shows the Permian Basin has another 2 billion barrels of recoverable oil.

Awesome. We use 7 billion barrels a year. Those will be an awesome 3 months though.

I'm with @RJM62. I'm all for alternative energy. Oil is a finite resource. It's a fantastic source of energy. What other source of fuel do we have with the energy density of dead compressed dinosaur corpses that is readily available? I mean really... if you think about having a gallon milk jug of gasoline and pouring out enough in a straight line for ~20-25 miles... that's an incredibly tiny amount of substance to propel a multi thousand pound vehicle over a long distance.

BUT... it's finite and lots of it is located in countries that hate us. The less of it we use, the better off we'll be. I'm less concerned from an environmental standpoint than I am from a practical one.
 
I'm all for biofuels. Global warming or no global warming, petroleum is a finite resource. Burning it makes no sense if we can burn something else instead. But the spiel in the video about how this is a positive thing with regard to global warming is simply nonsense. Biojet emissions are no cleaner than Jet-A- emissions.

If the question is how much CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere over the course of the flight itself, you are of course right. CO2 emissions for biojet vs. petroleum jet fuel are within a few percentage points of one another.

But, you are missing a big part of the picture. Making biofuels either involves growing biological matter as a crop to turn into fuel or capturing waste biological matter (like the tree bark use for the fuel in the article). Growing a crop takes CO2 out of the atmosphere (which is then returned to the atmosphere when the fuel is burned). As for the waste matter, if you just let it rot (in the field or in a landfill), the carbon content in the waste ultimately ends up as CO2 in the atmosphere (or perhaps methane, which is worse).

So, by making the biofuel, you either take CO2 out of the atmosphere to grow a crop, or you prevent CO2 emissions that would have resulted from rotting. Either way, the production process reduces the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Of course, that benefit is reversed when the fuel is burned, but at least in principal you could have the two balance out and be "carbon neutral."

For example, the hippy lady down the hill actually believes that she's doing the earth a favor by burning wood rather than propane. She raves on about how wood is "carbon-neutral" because the carbon was taken out of the earth and sequestrated in trees a hundred or so years ago. But the same can be said of any carbon-based fuel, when you get right down to it. And regardless of how or when it was sequestrated, when you burn it, the carbon is released now.

The carbon in your hippy neighbor's wood is going to end up released to the atmosphere someday anyway, when it dies and rots. If she cuts down a living tree to burn, she is just speeding up the day that happens. But, if a new tree grows in its place, then that carbon will be recaptured into that new tree.

If she burns propane instead, and that propane came from natural gas in geological formations, that is a net increase in CO2 in the atmosphere, because there is no process to return atmospheric carbon into geological formations on any reasonable timescale. (This might change if carbon sequestration technology were implemented on a large scale, but it's not clear that is feasible.)

At the end of the day, the carbon on this planet exists in (1) gases (mostly CO2) in the atmosphere and dissolved in the oceans, (2) living matter, (3) fossil fuels, and (4) carbonate rocks. Increasing the amount of carbon in #3 and #4 happens only very, very slowly. So, removing carbon from #3 inevitably increases the carbon in #1 for a long time. By contrast, carbon removed from #2 can quickly be replaced--indeed life will largely take care of that by itself without our help. Assuming biofuel production is done responsibly, it isn't going to really change the average total amount of carbon in #2. Since the amount of carbon is fixed, and you aren't touching #3 or #4, use of biofuels doesn't really change #1 much either.
 
The carbon in your hippy neighbor's wood is going to end up released to the atmosphere someday anyway, when it dies and rots. If she cuts down a living tree to burn, she is just speeding up the day that happens. But, if a new tree grows in its place, then that carbon will be recaptured into that new tree.

If she burns propane instead, and that propane came from natural gas in geological formations, that is a net increase in CO2 in the atmosphere, because there is no process to return atmospheric carbon into geological formations on any reasonable timescale. (This might change if carbon sequestration technology were implemented on a large scale, but it's not clear that is feasible.)

At the end of the day, the carbon on this planet exists in (1) gases (mostly CO2) in the atmosphere and dissolved in the oceans, (2) living matter, (3) fossil fuels, and (4) carbonate rocks. Increasing the amount of carbon in #3 and #4 happens only very, very slowly. So, removing carbon from #3 inevitably increases the carbon in #1 for a long time. By contrast, carbon removed from #2 can quickly be replaced--indeed life will largely take care of that by itself without our help. Assuming biofuel production is done responsibly, it isn't going to really change the average total amount of carbon in #2. Since the amount of carbon is fixed, and you aren't touching #3 or #4, use of biofuels doesn't really change #1 much either.

The problem is that if the extremists in the AGW debate (including said hippy lady) are correct, the world should be ending some time next Tuesday if we don't curb carbon emissions today. Whatever a tree might accomplish over the course of the next hundred years, or how much carbon may be released by rotting wood during the next ten years, are moot points in that scenario. The only thing that matters in an imminence scenario is how much carbon is belched into the air right now. Everything else is meaningless.

Rich
 
Awesome. We use 7 billion barrels a year. Those will be an awesome 3 months though.

It's actually 20 billion. I made an error in my original post. What I'm getting at is that the US has more oil than it can conceivably use. There's no reason to burn biofuel in F-18s.
 
It's actually 20 billion. I made an error in my original post. What I'm getting at is that the US has more oil than it can conceivably use. There's no reason to burn biofuel in F-18s.
If by conceivably you mean 3 years....
 
As for the waste matter, if you just let it rot (in the field or in a landfill), the carbon content in the waste ultimately ends up as CO2 in the atmosphere

This is an incorrect assumption. The carbon from "rotting" wood is in part sequestered in soil. It is certainly not all, or even necessarily mostly, released into the atmosphere. The degree to which the carbon is sequestered in soil depends on many local environmental factors, and is a complex area of research.
 
This is an incorrect assumption. The carbon from "rotting" wood is in part sequestered in soil. It is certainly not all, or even necessarily mostly, released into the atmosphere. The degree to which the carbon is sequestered in soil depends on many local environmental factors, and is a complex area of research.

Fair enough. If 100% of the carbon in dead biomass always ended up in the atmosphere, fossil fuels would never form. But, as you suggest, it is going to require the right local conditions to sequester a large fraction of the carbon in the soil. The carbon cycle is a complicated thing, which makes it hard to determine the precise long-term impact of any specific action on atmospheric CO2 levels.

If it's easy to achieve long-term carbon sequestration in soil, that probably makes crop-based biofuels an even more appealing prospect, because you can take any waste not suitable for use in biofuel production and do whatever it takes for its carbon to be sequestered in the soil, right?

Anyway, I think the key point is that it is relatively straightforward to make biofuel that is essentially carbon-neutral over the cycle of its production and use, as long as you are able to avoid any fossil-fuel inputs to the process.
 
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