first aircraft.

[Ted]

My guess was and is 2-5 hours extra. Any other instructors have a different estimate?

No, I'd say that 2-5 hours is in the ballpark of about right for a standard newbie.

Someone who's been raised around airplanes might be different, but that's not the norm.

 

[Alexb2000]

I am not an instructor, but if someone is learning to fly with the idea to travel by airplane (HP engine) then so what if it takes an extra 5 hours or 10 to learn?

I would rather have 50 hours of experience managing a HP engine (with an instructor) before I went out by myself, rather than a quick checkout after my PPL. Especially if I was a new owner paying the repair bills.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am not an instructor, but if someone is learning to fly with the idea to travel by airplane (HP engine) then so what if it takes an extra 5 hours or 10 to learn?

Many primary trainees have this idea that they should solo within some number of hours, and if they don't, they get very discouraged and even upset. I've got no problem training someone in a plane with more complexity and performance than a typical light single-engine trainer as long as they understand that they may not solo as quickly as their buddy flying a C-152 or the like.

I would rather have 50 hours of experience managing a HP engine (with an instructor) before I went out by myself, rather than a quick checkout after my PPL. Especially if I was a new owner paying the repair bills.

That's a good positive attitude, but unfortunately, not everyone starting on their PP training understands the ramifications (as well as the benefits) of doing their training in a 182 vs a 172 or 152, and that can make life difficult for the instructor.

 

[Jaybird180]

That's a good positive attitude, but unfortunately, not everyone starting on their PP training understands the ramifications (as well as the benefits) of doing their training in a 182 vs a 172 or 152, and that can make life difficult for the instructor.

Benefits?

 

[Tom-D]

Let's face the fact that if you are going to be a safe pilot, your entire career will be one long training tract.


Benefits? staying alive? not getting any one hurt?

 

[Tom-D]

That's a good positive attitude, but unfortunately, not everyone starting on their PP training understands the ramifications (as well as the benefits) of doing their training in a 182 vs a 172 or 152, and that can make life difficult for the instructor.

Who gives a crap about the instructors life, that is why you get paid. There are very few mistakes that haven't been a few times already, All you must do is keep us a live until we are smart enough to survive on our own.

The time tract really doesn't make a hoot, because if you train in the aircraft that fits the purpose, you will get the training anyway.

Why start in a smaller aircraft and work you way up? If you need to be in a Bonanza or 210 who cares if you can fly a C-150?

Why learn to drive on a stick shift, when you are going to buy an automatic?

 

[poadeleted20]

Benefits?

If you're going to be flying a 182 as soon as you get your PPL, you'll do better in the long run (both skill/proficiency and insurance) to do your training in a 182. It will take longer and cost more to get your PPL, but you won't have to worry about transition training or minimum checkout later on.

 

[poadeleted20]

Who gives a crap about the instructors life, that is why you get paid.

When the trainee doesn't understand why it's taking longer and costing more to get to solo (or beyond) because of the size and complexity of the plane, and is getting discouraged with him/herself or angry at the instructor as a result, that makes the instructor's job more difficult. Yes, I get paid for that, but I get paid more if the trainee completes the program than if s/he drops out halfway through because of a lack of understanding of the impact of using a larger and/or more complex aircraft for the training. This has to be discussed and understood up front if the training program is to be enjoyable and successful for all parties concerned.

 

[Tom-D]

When the trainee doesn't understand why it's taking longer and costing more to get to solo (or beyond) because of the size and complexity of the plane, and is getting discouraged with him/herself or angry at the instructor as a result, that makes the instructor's job more difficult. Yes, I get paid for that, but I get paid more if the trainee completes the program than if s/he drops out halfway through because of a lack of understanding of the impact of using a larger and/or more complex aircraft for the training. This has to be discussed and understood up front if the training program is to be enjoyable and successful for all parties concerned.

A good instructor will solve that problem before it gets started.

 

[Ted]

A good instructor will solve that problem before it gets started.

Precisely. A good instructor can figure out how to keep the process enjoyable for the student. Each student is different, and requires something different for that.

 

[poadeleted20]

No matter how good an instructor is, s/he can't anticipate everything.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think it's a matter of managing the expectations of the student. The first lesson should give an overview of the whole path ahead, and set expectations properly. Discuss things like the typical plateau most students reach pre-solo, the effects weather and maintenance will have on the schedule. Address the fact that (as Ron notes) there will be unanticipated issues that will need to be worked through.

Really, it doesn't matter if you're teaching flying, teaching golf, or creating a new business partnership, or getting married... An open and honest conversation about what you're going to be doing together and what you can anticipate makes the follow on work go much smoother.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think it's a matter of managing the expectations of the student. The first lesson should give an overview of the whole path ahead, and set expectations properly. Discuss things like the typical plateau most students reach pre-solo, the effects weather and maintenance will have on the schedule.

You can address anything you want before training starts, but until you've flown with the person a few times, you really don't have the foggiest idea how fast their training will progress, and in many cases, they will make unjustified assumptions about their own ability to learn to fly and from that create unrealistic expectations. Later on, if/when that bubble bursts, the instructor has to pick up the pieces and put them back together. That's part of being an instructor, and any instructor who thinks it won't happen to them just hasn't been doing this very long or very much.

 

[Tom-D]

No matter how good an instructor is, s/he can't anticipate everything.

Shouldn't take much of an instructor to know the learning curve in a A36 is longer than the learning curve in a C-150.

 

[weilke]

You two guys start to sound like two bickering old men in a nursing home arguing about whether the patio door should be open or closed.

 

[Tom-D]

You two guys start to sound like two bickering old men in a nursing home arguing about whether the patio door should be open or closed.

And you still choose to read it.

 

[Ted]

And you still choose to read it.

Get off my lawn!

 

[poadeleted20]

Shouldn't take much of an instructor to know the learning curve in a A36 is longer than the learning curve in a C-150.

The problem is the trainee, not the instructor. Or would you give a firm, fixed-price estimate on an aircraft annual (including repairs) based on the owner's assessment of what is needed without opening up the plane and looking at it yoruself?

 

[Henning]

The problem is the trainee, not the instructor. Or would you give a firm, fixed-price estimate on an aircraft annual (including repairs) based on the owner's assessment of what is needed without opening up the plane and looking at it yoruself?

Simple, given a FW recip SEL <$1MM.

 

[tonycondon]

Get off my lawn!

Ted, you're doing it wrong:

 

[Tom-D]

The problem is the trainee, not the instructor. Or would you give a firm, fixed-price estimate on an aircraft annual (including repairs) based on the owner's assessment of what is needed without opening up the plane and looking at it yoruself?

Not even close to the same concept.

I do tell the complex owners that the servicing and maintenance is more on a complex aircraft, with out seeing their aircraft. you certainly can predict that a new student will require more training to be safe in a complex aircraft.

I don't see the problem of stating that up front with any body. If you have difficulty conveying that to the student, you might be the problem.