Financing Flight Lessons?

[integra144]

Can people give advice on how to finance flying? My parents are paying for my 4 year college degree in accounting, but they want me to start paying for flying myself, they will cosign the loan. In the summer I want to fly more and it is already costing around $1,500 for 2x 2:30 lessons a week. I taking a 141 course.

I know Sallie Mai offers loans, but has anyone used any other? I looked on the web, but some look shady like http://www.pilotfinance.com/.

Also should I take like $40,000 at once to cover Private, Instrument and Commercial?

What are your recommendations? My parents think I am getting myself into a dead end job.

Thanks

 

[gprellwitz]

Can people give advice on how to finance flying? My parents are paying for my 4 year college degree in accounting, but they want me to start paying for flying myself, they will cosign the loan. In the summer I want to fly more and it is already costing around $1,500 for 2x 2:30 lessons a week. I taking a 141 course.

I know Sallie Mai offers loans, but has anyone used any other? I looked on the web, but some look shady like http://www.pilotfinance.com/.

Also should I take like $40,000 at once to cover Private, Instrument and Commercial?

What are your recommendations? My parents think I am getting myself into a dead end job.

Thanks

I financed mine with credit card debt. NOT a route I'd recommend! Curious as to what is shady about the pilotfinance.com. I haven't used them, but we have some brochures from them at the airport. If there's an actual issue with them, I may investigate having them removed.

 

[SCCutler]

Dude, $1,500.00 for 5 hours of dual? Where are you sited?

 

[poadeleted20]

$300/hour? That seems pretty steep.

In any event, for most folks in college, being in a collegiate aviation program which allows you to include your flying in your college loans is the best way to get it done. Outside of that, my only decent recommendation would be to get a summer job after school lets out, work your tail off until fall, and use that money for the next year's flying. However, at $300/hour for instruction, there ain't many jobs that don't involve risk of incarceration if caught that will pay in a summer for a year's flying.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

If you can get a SallieMae education loan, it's a great way to go. I used it to get my instrument rating.

 

[RaginBajin]

You only need like a 7,000 loan to get your private license. I would just take out a personal loan that way. If your parents are going to cosign for it, then not a big deal then.

7,000.00 is way less than 40,000. Also, that training price is crazy. I live in Northern Virginia where the price of things are way overpriced and my price to get my training is no where near 300.00 an hour.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I guess it kind of depends on your definition of "dead end job", but let's look at some practical realities.

You borrow $40k, and get your private, instrument, and commercial.

It's highly unlikely at this point that you will be able to get a flying job that keeps you off food stamps. Add the multi, and a little experience, you might get a regional job, depending upon the "pilot economy" at that exact moment in time. But you're still barely off food stamps for at least a year.

CFI? More money, and back to food stamps unless and until you find a niche that will pay the bills.

I know my share of CFIs and regional pilots whose parents and/or spouse are making these loan payments for them.

I know a guy who, like Grant, financed his flight training with credit cards. I don't know whether Grant discovered this, but apparently it's a royal PITA when credit card companies call you at all hours of the day and night looking for money.

No, I'm not saying don't go after the flying career. I am, however, personally terrified of debt. Read what follows with that in mind.

Since your parents are financing your school, you might consider flying as much as you can afford to pay for at the time. Then, when you get out of college, get yourself a lucrative accounting job, and spend a year or two making the big bucks to finance you're flying. When you get to the point where you're marketable as a pilot, you can make the decision as to whether or not you want to take the pay cut (you've been living like a monk anyway, just to put all that money into flying, right?) and give up that awful desk job for the glamorous aviation career.

This is probably going to make me sound like the "old guy" that I'm probably becoming, but if decent flying jobs aren't going to be there in 6 or 7 years, I wouldn't put myself in debt to get one in 4 or 5. Sometimes being patient works out just as well.

Fly safe!

David

 

[ScottM]

The best way to pay for flight lessons is to get a job, save up, and pay them without using credit.

 

[sba55]

Also, find a cheaper place to rent from. Everything around here is on the expensive side, but a 152+CFI is still "only" about $95/hr. Not $300.

There are other ways to save money. Hang out at the airport, don't fly fancy G1000 172s, fly with other folks who don't mind, or in the back with other students. $7000 dollars for the private is absolutely realistic if you do it right.

-Felix

 

[KennyFlys]

I have two students who have used Pilot Finance. One I asked about it said they were great and also a great help when he wanted to get away from his previous school.

I used Sallie Mae and that has gone pretty smooth. They are hard to keep happy from a flight school perspective so not all schools are set up with them. I may look into it for ours at some point down the road.

As far as costs, like others, I'd like to know what the heck you're renting for that kind of money. Our 150 is $78 and I'm only $35. Even the Skyhawk is just $110. You might want to look for a much different school.

 

[pilotmattk]

The best way to pay for flight lessons is to get a job, save up, and pay them without using credit.

I second that! The best way is to sacrifice and make it happen without debt. Work as a lineman or something at the flight school. You can usually get a good discount by being employed where you're training. (Note this only works with smaller local flight schoools, the big guys don't work this way).

Can you imagine trying to service 40K in debt, pay rent, and buy food while building time as a CFI or other job once the education is over?

Your life will be much better without debt. My wife and I can both vouch for that! We used to finance things, until we started having too much month left at the end of the money... We just started eating into the investments I had made since I was 14 when we realized something was wrong. We spent the last 2 years bustin it and it's SOO worth it! Run from the credit sharks!

 

[rottydaddy]

You probably don't need to hear it again, but if your figures are accurate, you're getting burned... unless it's twin time. That's way expensive, even for a 141 operation.
First step in figuring out how to pay for all this is: don't pay more than you have to.

 

[pilotmattk]

$7000 dollars for the private is absolutely realistic if you do it right.

Yup. I got mine last year for 5854.66. That includes the training materials , the check ride, as well as a 30-3G headset and some other misc stuff I didn't really NEED.

Flew 152's twice a week. Bought bulk time at a discount. Used MS flight sim (not loggable) where it would help (mostly NAV) to speed up my understanding, and studied hard before each lesson.

 

[jason]

Please do yourself a favor and don't finance your flight lessons like this. If you go back and read through the forums you'll see that this question is asked about every other month, and the answer is the same every time. Work...pay cash for your ratings...and there may actually be a chance that you can afford to fly for a living.

When you do get a flying job, it won't pay squat for the first several years. That's not to say that you can't be happy making squat, it's to say that it'll already be hard enough making ends meet without having to pay back these loans.

Also, $300/hour is crazy in most parts of the country. You need to fly a more reasonable airplane. You should be doing this for < $150/hour...dual. If there is no place more affordable in your area, perhaps you can spend the summer working and flying somewhere in the country with more reasonable training options.

In one thread you asked about a 172 vs. a 172SP and you chose the more expensive option. There is no reason that you can't get your ratings in a 152 and save yourself some money.

 

[deafsound]

Our friend is probably paying around $175 for dual around these parts assuming that he's renting a 172 that's fuel injected. Yes...he could go for the older 172s that have carburetors and be saving some bucks, but he's probably learning to fly in the G1000 planes.

I am very much aware of what's available for him to rent, and there's not a single 152 left on the line for him to use.

It's very expensive to fly around these parts these days (the greater Boston area)...gas isn't cheap, instruction isn't cheap and so on.

I think he exaggerated the cost for him to fly by about 20%, but it's still very expensive, and he's doing it the way that he thinks is best, so everyone lay off, eh?

Follow your dreams sir, and have fun. It's only money.

 

[jesse]

I think he exaggerated the cost for him to fly by about 20%, but it's still very expensive, and he's doing it the way that he thinks is best, so everyone lay off, eh?

You can think you know best all you want. You can ignore the truth. You can walk blindly into this ****. In the end you walk away saying "oh ****..how am I going to pay for this...I should have listened."

Follow your dreams sir, and have fun. It's only money.

That only goes so far. Eventually one realizes that yes, it's only money, and yes you actually need money to get by in this world on your own.

Based on what I read previously.. I suspect his parents will foot the bill.

 

[jason]

Our friend is probably paying around $175 for dual around these parts assuming that he's renting a 172 that's fuel injected. Yes...he could go for the older 172s that have carburetors and be saving some bucks, but he's probably learning to fly in the G1000 planes.

I am very much aware of what's available for him to rent, and there's not a single 152 left on the line for him to use.

It's very expensive to fly around these parts these days (the greater Boston area)...gas isn't cheap, instruction isn't cheap and so on.

I think he exaggerated the cost for him to fly by about 20%, but it's still very expensive, and he's doing it the way that he thinks is best, so everyone lay off, eh?

I thought that may be the case, which is why I suggested that he could go somewhere more affordable during summer break. He could easily save himself thousands of dollars with a little bit of planning and creative thinking.

Follow your dreams sir, and have fun. It's only money.

Ok, I'll admit that I was a little harsh. It's not his fault that we've seen this question more than a couple of times. For me, I think it's about the fact that I've never seen anybody come back to the board and say. "Wow, am I ever glad that I did that!"

With all due respect, the only people that I ever seen use the phrace "it's only money" either had money or were trying to excuse behavior that they knew to be wrong. With just the smallest amount of planning and discipline, somebody his age could so easily retire a multi-millionaire. I simply can't suggest to them that it's a good idea to ring up $30,000-40,000 worth of debt with no plan to pay it off. He came to the board asking for opinions. I, for one, was not telling him that it's a bad idea to follow his dreams. There is nothing better in life than to spend every day doing the work that you love. I think most of us are simply telling him to slow down and do the math before jumping in. That's something that an accounting major should be able to do. There is no reason that all of this has to be done in the next six months. He's going to need his degree either way if he wants to work for the airlines.

 

[t0r0nad0]

I'm one of those who financed my pilot training through a loan from AOPA/Bank of America. I wouldn't recommend this route. It probably wasn't the smartest way for me to do it, especially since I have no career aspirations with flying - it's just an expensive hobby for me. But, the reason I did it was because I'm getting to a point in my life when life is going to happen fast - within the next 3-4 years, I will most likely be getting engaged, getting married, and starting a family. I figured that if I didn't do it then and do it quick, then I wouldn't ever get the opportunity, and I was afraid I'd regret it for the many years to come until my kids were at a point that I'd have time (and money) to get it done. Also, I know it's better to fly frequently while doing your training, and if I were to try this on my own budget, I wouldn't have been able to fly as frequently as I should have.

Now, the down-side. I do have this loan over my head, which couples with some credit card debt, a car note, and a student loan that I'm in the process of paying off. Also, I think that when all is said and done, with the interest included, I'll wind up having paid more than I would have had I done this piecemeal. I am paying more than the minimum amount each month to try to knock it out quicker so I pay less interest and just get it out of the way, but by doing that now I can only afford to fly 1 or 2 hours a month. Now, I am flying with my mentor a good bit in his plane, so that keeps my hand-flying skills smooth, but doesn't allow me to practice takeoffs and landings as much as I'd like. Once I get more stuff paid off, I should be able to fly more frequently, though.

So, what should you do? I think that the idea of getting a job and working your tail off to save up money sounds like the best option. This flying thing is not something you HAVE to do right away - you're still young, and your parents are paying for your accounting degree. So, work hard, pay for as much flying and as many ratings as you can while your parents are bankrolling you, then finish up everything else after you get a well-paying accounting job.

As far as jobs go, I'll second the notion about going to work for a flight school or FBO... get any discounts you can, and you'll learn a lot about flying from talking to and developing relationships with the various pilots there. I'm actually going to earn my AGI and work for the FBO I learned at - not just because I like to teach and want to teach, but also so that I could possibly get a discount on earning my IR.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

PJ, that's an interesting story. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people going back and doing it when their kids are done with college... And I can't tell you how many times I've heard of folks getting really old and never doing it because they didn't do it when they were young.

What I have NEVER heard is someone saying "Boy, I wish I would have waited longer to learn to fly." Never, ever. I hear "Jeez, I wish I'd started doing this 20 years ago!" all the time. Heck, I got my PP when I was 28 and I wish I'd done it earlier!

I really like the idea of going somewhere during summer vacation. $175 or more for dual is utterly ridiculous. Being able to stay with relatives somewhere away from the BOS area and get the ratings done for more like $100-$120/hr would save many thousands of dollars. Heck, for $175/hr it'd be better to just go buy a C150 or 152 and sell it when you're done. You could build a lot of cheap hours that way too, and do some fun flying, and... and... and... Well, you could get a lot more done for a lot less money than flying a rental at $175/hr.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

In the summer I want to fly more and it is already costing around $1,500 for 2x 2:30 lessons a week.

How much flying time does that buy you? I think there is a misconception on how much you are really paying per hour.

Also should I take like $40,000 at once to cover Private, Instrument and Commercial?

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU PAY FOR FLIGHT TRAINING UP FRONT. MAYBE 5 or 10 hour blocks, but NO MORE THAN THAT. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU PAY FOR FLIGHT TRAINING UP FRONT.

Did I make myself clear?

What are your recommendations?

Pay as you go. You really don't want a pile of debt to pay off at what amounts to poverty wages first starting out.

My parents think I am getting myself into a dead end job.

Depends on how dedicated you are. There really are a lot of opportunities in aviation if you have patience.

 

[gprellwitz]

I have two students who have used Pilot Finance. One I asked about it said they were great and also a great help when he wanted to get away from his previous school.

Thanks for the PIREP!

I know a guy who, like Grant, financed his flight training with credit cards. I don't know whether Grant discovered this, but apparently it's a royal PITA when credit card companies call you at all hours of the day and night looking for money.

No, we never had problems paying more than was due, but certainly paid more than we should have because of interest payments! And, being part of the "I want it NOW" generation, we'll probably finance some of the Alaska trip this summer the same way. It's a bad idea, but, as is frequently said before doing something stupid, "it's only money!" We could get up there about $3-4K cheaper by taking the flying tubes than flying ourselves.

 

[dmccormack]

PJWhat I have NEVER heard is someone saying "Boy, I wish I would have waited longer to learn to fly." Never, ever. I hear "Jeez, I wish I'd started doing this 20 years ago!" all the time. Heck, I got my PP when I was 28 and I wish I'd done it earlier!

Amen.

Don't wait -- keep in mind a medical condition can pop up that will ground you or severely limit your options -- and the older you get, the more likely those occur!

 

[Everskyward]

I was in a situation similar to Integra's when I was going to college. I was studying something other than aviation and taking flying lessons on the side. I was lucky to be attending an inexpensive (at the time) state university and I was living at home so I didn't have much in the way of other expenses. What I did was save up enough to pay for what I thought would cover a good portion of the cost before I started. My goal was $1,000 (this was in the late 1970s). After I had that much, which probably took close to a year to accumulate, I started taking lessons. This worked out well for me. The rest of my ratings I also got pay-as-you-go. I'm no ball of fire so it took me 3 or 4 years to decide to get my instrument rating. Then I got about one rating a year; IFR, commercial, CFI, etc. During this time I had a non-pilot job which took place in small airplanes so I had a lot of exposure to aviation. It also allowed me to support myself without stretching too much financially. I know this is not the way for everyone because most people want things NOW, however, it was the right way for me.

As far as the "it's only money" phrase goes, I use it a lot. You can't take it with you...

 

[dmccormack]

All good advice here..

FWIW...

To reduce the total training costs, fly often (2x a week at least), study before each flight, fly with someone who follows a syllabus and tells you what to expect next flight so you can mentally prepare and practice on a sim at home.

(Practice everything EXCEPT takeoffs and landings -- sims are terrible in these flight regimes and inculcate bad habits).

I used this technique for the PP and Instrument rating and it saved me many hours/dollars.

The sim helps keep up IFR proficiency when I don't have a chance to fly the gauges for a few weeks. It was no help for the comm and CFI.

 

[jason]

As far as the "it's only money" phrase goes, I use it a lot. You can't take it with you...

No, you can't take it with you...but you can change your family tree.

 

[Everskyward]

No, you can't take it with you...but you can change your family tree.

OK, I'm dense. I need an explanation. Maybe I should marry a sugar daddy?

 

[jason]

OK, I'm dense. I need an explanation. Maybe I should marry a sugar daddy?

I meant that you're right, you can't take it with you. But there are a number of things that you can do with it that are better than it just sitting there when you die.

My maternal grandparents were Hungarian immigrants. They literally arrived in the US with one suitcase each and no ability to speak the language. They took a train to the center of the country (KS then later NE), learned the language, and began to learn a new trade. They had two daughters and spent the next 50 years of their life raising their family and saving money. I never knew them to be anything other than very modest people, yet when they died a few years ago they left my mother and my aunt a decent amount of money. But, more importantly, they left them with the knowledge of what a life's worth of discipline can accomplish.

I plan to carry that on. For instance, I plan on sending my children to college. That's something that my parents weren't able to do for me and it's something that is difficult to do without discipline. My wife is currently pregnant with our first baby, due in July, and I'll need to save $277 a month for the next 18 years in order to save the $133,000 that they say I'll need in order to send him/her to college. But it will be worth it, because that simple act is likely to change my family tree.

I'm able to do something with money that my grandparents were never able to do. I have fun with it. My wife and I have traveled. We own a nice house. I fly (if only a little).

My point is this, In two generations my family will have gone from a man and a woman standing on a train platform in a strange country to whatever I can accomplish. I think about that whenever I'm tempted to say "it's only money".

I will fully admit that I can splurge on toys that I don't need. Just yesterday I ordered a $200 Apple TV. But saying "it's only money" when it comes to $30,000-40,000 is, to me, reckless. That is the kind of decision that affects your children and your grandchildren. I wouldn't be where I am today had my grandparents said that at any point in their life. So, I owe it to them not to make those mistakes.