Financial Aid Rant

B

bigblockz8

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
429
Display Name
Display name:
Gore
I originally signed up for aviation management- flight training. This would help me knock out the ratings and use a lower subsidized loan. They gave no help other than accepting my grants and my $440 out of pocket plus books. I was told to contact the program director. I did so. He gave a two sentence reply basically restating to, reading between the lines, read the f'ing program pdf!

I know the pdf in and out and I know that yes they give credit for the certs but I want to take ground schools offered by the college. Where else can an active, soon to retire, ATP teach me IFR and then commercial subjects? Yes the local airport has the teaching aids and a FMX sim but so does the school. Well our sim doesn't move but is still a FTD! I Only get credit for ppl ground school, the rest must be taken at a college level.

Long story short I signed up for the Private ground school and foudn out that due to limited seating, I along with two others got bumped due to last names! So I sign up at the local airport. I'll get the 3 credits but what bothers me is that in the twelve emails ranging from initial program questions not addressed in the pdf's to this issue in which one office refers me back to the director, I keep getting told to read the freaking pdf's!

I READ THEM! I am a lazy person online. I do not type an email asking a question or to set up a meeting to address a question list just because I'm bored. I write formal emails and then receive less than that. Don't crash my Cirrus and then give me a 150!

In the end I think that the only real way to truly progress is to have the finances to knock out ppl-CFI in two years. With my pay, it looks more like ten years at best. I am going to look for private loans and try on my own. I am tired of the lack of help. I did my part by applying for a loan but Sallie Mae said to contact here, they said to go here, then they said to see him, then he said to see her, etc. I don't like the school's approach of "try" 1-8. I have attempted all the options and have been denied or deferred.

This reminds me of calling the IRS and an hour later getting the same lady asking why I am calling. :mad2:
 
"Hello I am calling because my laptop's PSU fan is broken and I have the warranty for it."
"Sir is your laptop on?"
"Yes."
"Sir please open the laptop. Sir please press the power button to turn on the laptop."
"It's already on!"
"Sir please wait for it to boot."
 
Why do you feel as if anyone should give you help? The world is tough, plan on accomplishing everything solely on your own and you'll find yourself disappointed much less often.
 
When I was in college, and wanted advisement, I went to an adviser and sat in there office and talked to them.

Why are you sending emails?
 
jesse said:
Why do you feel as if anyone should give you help? The world is tough, plan on accomplishing everything solely on your own and you'll find yourself disappointed much less often.
Click to expand...

I cannot accomplish something if I carry about in blissful ignorance. Some things I have figured out without help but I still need his signature and a few questions answered. The advisers don't know, the professor doesn't know, I don't know. Nobody knows. Why pay for something and not learn? If I hire you as a CFI and ask a question about spins and you give me a book about slips it is partially relevant but will not fully answer my question. Have you effectively taught me?

One pdf does not answer every question. It answered some basic ones but that was all.
 
Mafoo said:
When I was in college, and wanted advisement, I went to an adviser and sat in there office and talked to them.

Why are you sending emails?
Click to expand...

Oh the appointed aviation adviser has no relation to the department and referred me in person to contact the program's director. The director told me to email him when I tried to have a face to face meeting. He said he replies within 2-4 days and that it's the best way to get him.
 
So then they're not worth doing business with, move on, and don't lose sleep over it.
 
jesse said:
Why do you feel as if anyone should give you help? The world is tough, plan on accomplishing everything solely on your own and you'll find yourself disappointed much less often.
Click to expand...

Best advice you'll ever see...
 
jesse said:
Why do you feel as if anyone should give you help? The world is tough, plan on accomplishing everything solely on your own and you'll find yourself disappointed much less often.
Click to expand...

While I agree with this is spirit, for some stupid reason the FAA won't give me a PPL on my own. I seem to need someones help to accomplish that.

I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting some help and guidance while in college. That's why they are there.
 
Flight school ain't college. It's getting with a CFI that will train you with what you need to know. You just have to shell out some ponies to get there. What you put in to it is what you get out of it.

I have college degrees and I've spent less, worked harder for, and am more proud of my flight credentials.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have college degrees and I've spent less, worked harder for, and am more proud of my flight credentials.
Click to expand...

When all is said and done, I will spend about 3-4 months, and less then 8 grand to get my PPL.

I worked a hell of a lot harder, and spent a hell of a lot more getting my Computer Engineering degree.

I will be proud of my accomplishment, but thousands of 17 year olds have PPL's. Not many have a BS in Computer Engineering.
 
Mafoo said:
When all is said and done, I will spend about 3-4 months, and less then 8 grand to get my PPL.

I worked a hell of a lot harder, and spent a hell of a lot more getting my Computer Engineering degree.

I will be proud of my accomplishment, but thousands of 17 year olds have PPL's. Not many have a BS in Computer Engineering.
Click to expand...

1 in 19000 are the numbers for any teenager with a private ticket or better.
 
Agree with Mafoo. I got a lot more personal satisfaction out of my pilot certificates, but I worked a hell of lot harder to attain my BS and MS in Aerospace Engineering. Of course, all three together and a buck twenty get me a cup of coffee in this labor market, but that's for another thread...
 
Me, I freakin partied my ass off getting ME and advanced CE degrees. I actually had to show up sober to my flight lessons.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I originally signed up for aviation management- flight training.
Click to expand...

So? You signed up for a degree program, that's just the start. They publish a price, in return they hand you a piece of paper if you jump through all of their hoops for four years or so.

Welcome to business as an adult. They made no other promises in writing. Make no doubt, colleges are a business. Education is a side-effect. And it ain't high school, they don't even have to act like they like you.

You pay, you do the work, you get paper. They turn down enough people every year that they'll never even notice if you leave.

bigblockz8 said:
This would help me knock out the ratings and use a lower subsidized loan.
Click to expand...

No, this would allow you to sign up for additional flight courses that jack up that initial price tag so your "need" for money is higher in the eyes of the government. And then pay the college that money. If you think they care at all where you get the money from, you missed something somewhere along the way.

bigblockz8 said:
They gave no help other than accepting my grants and my $440 out of pocket plus books.
Click to expand...

Exactly what you should have expected, anything more is a bonus. They're not in the business of making you a success, they're in the business of taking your money and giving you hoops to jump through until they hand you a piece of paper. You're the only person who can decide if it is worth it.

bigblockz8 said:
I was told to contact the program director. I did so. He gave a two sentence reply basically restating to, reading between the lines, read the f'ing program pdf!
Click to expand...

Yes, and... You expected more?

bigblockz8 said:
I know the pdf in and out and I know that yes they give credit for the certs but I want to take ground schools offered by the college. Where else can an active, soon to retire, ATP teach me IFR and then commercial subjects?
Click to expand...

At just about any airport in the country, if you look hard enough. Lots of retired 121 folks teach. You think Purdue has a lock on that? There's a well respected ex- DC-10 Captain with his own non-141 school at my airport. He teaches every rating beyond Private. He's not cheap, and he takes cash or credit card up-front.

bigblockz8 said:
Yes the local airport has the teaching aids and a FMX sim but so does the school. Well our sim doesn't move but is still a FTD! I Only get credit for ppl ground school, the rest must be taken at a college level.
Click to expand...

I don't see a question here. The credits are part of those hoops already mentioned. You want their paper, you jump through their hoops. No surprise there. It's probably in that PDF.

bigblockz8 said:
Long story short I signed up for the Private ground school and foudn out that due to limited seating, I along with two others got bumped due to last names! So I sign up at the local airport. I'll get the 3 credits but what bothers me is that in the twelve emails ranging from initial program questions not addressed in the pdf's to this issue in which one office refers me back to the director, I keep getting told to read the freaking pdf's!
Click to expand...

Welcome to adult bureaucracy. What exactly is the problem? And why are you handing people who don't meet your expectations, your money?

bigblockz8 said:
I READ THEM! I am a lazy person online. I do not type an email asking a question or to set up a meeting to address a question list just because I'm bored. I write formal emails and then receive less than that. Don't crash my Cirrus and then give me a 150!
Click to expand...

Formal e-mails. That's a laugh. Print it out and walk over and talk to someone. See if they care.

You want to know how many e-mails I have ignored completely in any single work week? And these are my co-workers, not folks I'm paying for a service.

You're precious. Go voice your displeasure in person. If you don't like the answers, or their attitude, decide now before you're in debt so big you won't unbury yourself until you're 40.

bigblockz8 said:
In the end I think that the only real way to truly progress is to have the finances to knock out ppl-CFI in two years. With my pay, it looks more like ten years at best. I am going to look for private loans and try on my own. I am tired of the lack of help. I did my part by applying for a loan but Sallie Mae said to contact here, they said to go here, then they said to see him, then he said to see her, etc. I don't like the school's approach of "try" 1-8. I have attempted all the options and have been denied or deferred.
Click to expand...

Again, it's your money and their rules. Their job is to offer a piece of paper for a price. They also handed you a list of possible ways to pay for what you signed up for. Your job is to pay for it. They really don't care how, it's your problem as an adult. 1-8 are the ideas they've seen work. They don't care how you pay them.

bigblockz8 said:
This reminds me of calling the IRS and an hour later getting the same lady asking why I am calling. :mad2:
Click to expand...

Same thing, yup. What student number are you this year at Purdue? You think the staff has time to have an individual conference with every one?

You think an IRS low-level phone agent remembers anyone's name after ten soul-sucking years of answering the same phone calls, day in, day out, or cares to?

Here's reality, my young friend...

To fly professionally you don't need Purdue. You need...

- Flight ratings. A pile of them. All of the fixed wing ratings besides seaplane and ATP, at a minimum.

- A way to pay for the above.

- You might need a four year degree in damn near anything. Hard sciences may show off better.

- A metric assload of flight time.*

* Maybe less if you're willing to instruct for little pay and lots of time to build it.

Purdue is only one of many ways to approach those goals. They provide a price tag, you being broke head off to talk to government to see if they'll subsidize you by giving you some grants and big ass loans, backed by the American public, since you have no assets or skills to back them.

Private loans are either asset backed or have interest rates that will keep you in debt at airline pay scales until you're older than 40.

If you were expecting more, as an adult, you may be in for a shock. No one at Purdue owes you anything than exactly what the course book says at the prices determined each year per credit hour.

Welcome to adult life.

Now that this has been said, what exactly were you thinking Purdue is supposed to do other than hand you a list of things to try, and your bill?

You'll either pay up, jump through the hoops and get the paper at the end, or you'll drop out. It's your call, not theirs. They don't care.
 
Mafoo said:
When all is said and done, I will spend about 3-4 months, and less then 8 grand to get my PPL.

I worked a hell of a lot harder, and spent a hell of a lot more getting my Computer Engineering degree.

I will be proud of my accomplishment, but thousands of 17 year olds have PPL's. Not many have a BS in Computer Engineering.
Click to expand...

What makes you think you worked any harder than anyone else?

Assuming you really have a CPR-E degree, then passing the PP written should be pretty easy, since it's based on 9th Grade Algebra and some common sense.

But let's run with your numbers. "8 grand" and "4 months" to get your PPL means, what, about $2 Grand a month? What are you going to do when you get your PPL in 4 months?

$2 grand a month means you should be able to sashay into renting a Navajo or 421 for your twin training. Those poor 17 year olds can't possibly outshine you can they? Yep, there's a lot of pride in knowing you can outspend someone...
 
SCCutler said:
Best advice you'll ever see...
Click to expand...

Which undoubtedly explains why we have QEII and QEIII that helps unwind the financial mess...

But, yeah, we need idealistic young people to become pilots for some reason or another...
 
BurtM said:
What makes you think you worked any harder than anyone else?

Assuming you really have a CPR-E degree, then passing the PP written should be pretty easy, since it's based on 9th Grade Algebra and some common sense.

But let's run with your numbers. "8 grand" and "4 months" to get your PPL means, what, about $2 Grand a month? What are you going to do when you get your PPL in 4 months?

$2 grand a month means you should be able to sashay into renting a Navajo or 421 for your twin training. Those poor 17 year olds can't possibly outshine you can they? Yep, there's a lot of pride in knowing you can outspend someone...
Click to expand...

I think you missed the point.

As for the 8 grand, I actually do take a lot of pride on knowing I can outspend someone.

You see, I was born poor, worked my ass off full time while paying for my education, and then worked 60+ hours a week for 15 years, so I was always the most important person in my shop.

Yes, I am damn proud that I did what it takes to have that 2 grand a month to do whatever I damn well please, and I will never feel ashamed of it.
 
Mafoo said:
I think you missed the point.

As for the 8 grand, I actually do take a lot of pride on knowing I can outspend someone.

You see, I was born poor, worked my ass off full time while paying for my education, and then worked 60+ hours a week for 15 years, so I was always the most important person in my shop.

Yes, I am damn proud that I did what it takes to have that 2 grand a month to do whatever I damn well please, and I will never feel ashamed of it.
Click to expand...

Of course you did.

That's why you announced with justifiable pride, your new flight bag purchase, but neglected to tell us about your solo...

Rock on, Ms. Mafoo!
 
BurtM said:
Is there some kind of Massengill exchange credit for experience? If so, you're just moments away from the DPE ride, bud.

As they say, "If you don't have a bag, carry a bigger one!" You pass that test with flying colors! Don't let anyone try to take that away from you.
Click to expand...

I am still not sure why you chose to make upsetting me, or just generally trashing me some sort of personal crusade of yours. I have done nothing to you, said nothing about you, and just use this site as a tool to interact with other pilots for education and enjoyment.

And just to let you know... It's not working, and the more you go down this path, the more of a fool you end up looking to this community.

I recommend you give up the fight.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I cannot accomplish something if I carry about in blissful ignorance. Some things I have figured out without help but I still need his signature and a few questions answered. The advisers don't know, the professor doesn't know, I don't know. Nobody knows. Why pay for something and not learn? If I hire you as a CFI and ask a question about spins and you give me a book about slips it is partially relevant but will not fully answer my question. Have you effectively taught me?

One pdf does not answer every question. It answered some basic ones but that was all.
Click to expand...

Why not walk into the persons office and ask?

BTW, you're setting yourself up with a hard row to hoe financing flight training and college.
 
I understand the need for talking bluntly about the facts of life, but somehow I sense another potential round of over-the-top expletive-loaded rhetoric. Maybe we could take a step back, breathe deeply and let things settle before coming back for a final body blow. Or even come back more gently and kindly.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I understand the need for talking bluntly about the facts of life, but somehow I sense another potential round of over-the-top expletive-loaded rhetoric. Maybe we could take a step back, breathe deeply and let things settle before coming back for a final body blow. Or even come back more gently and kindly.
Click to expand...

I agree.

Greg comes in here upset about not getting the service he is paying for, and the general consensus is to suck it up and take care of it on his own.

Good thing this was not about a liver transplant. That would be ugly.
 
Consider when going through life that when things become difficult and frustrating for absolutely stupid reasons that it's a sign that you are taking the wrong path.

Here's a thought for you, you are entering a loser program, very expensive way to go about flying with a very limited use result. Nobody, nobody hiring pilots gives a rats ass about what field your degree is in, heck, unless you make it to a major a degree is optional anyway. None of them give a rats ass as to where you got your ratings from either. The only caveat to these rules is the 'Old Boy Network' of alumni. That is where any value in these university aviation programs lies.

You may be much better off getting a different degree not aviation specific, a general business degree or whatever. If you're really cooking upstairs you'll set yourself up with an undergrad degree that sets you up for a grad program in another field. If you have enough going as well as meet the other criteria, you may consider some engineering degree as well as ROTC or at least keep your nose clean for OCS later. If you really want to make it in aviation, the military programs are still the best start.

You can do your flight training privately with anyone that has a CFI/I, doesn't need to be an ATP. The best economics for this is to buy a Cessna 150 with an IFR panel and rent it to other students for their flight training. Find a CFI with an A&P ticket to manage and maintain the plane. Get your CFI done as quick as you can so you too can join the ranks of the blind leading the blind and building time on someone else's dime.
 
You're not the first person with freshman culture shock. Most of us have been there. Once you're out of high school, you're expected to figure stuff out on your own. If your high school did a lot of hand holding, as many of them do, this is a big shock. But it really is essential. And the faster you make the transition, the happier you'll be.
 
Henning said:
Consider when going through life that when things become difficult and frustrating for absolutely stupid reasons that it's a sign that you are taking the wrong path.

Here's a thought for you, you are entering a loser program, very expensive way to go about flying with a very limited use result. Nobody, nobody hiring pilots gives a rats ass about what field your degree is in, heck, unless you make it to a major a degree is optional anyway. None of them give a rats ass as to where you got your ratings from either. The only caveat to these rules is the 'Old Boy Network' of alumni. That is where any value in these university aviation programs lies.

You may be much better off getting a different degree not aviation specific, a general business degree or whatever. If you're really cooking upstairs you'll set yourself up with an undergrad degree that sets you up for a grad program in another field. If you have enough going as well as meet the other criteria, you may consider some engineering degree as well as ROTC or at least keep your nose clean for OCS later. If you really want to make it in aviation, the military programs are still the best start.

You can do your flight training privately with anyone that has a CFI/I, doesn't need to be an ATP. The best economics for this is to buy a Cessna 150 with an IFR panel and rent it to other students for their flight training. Find a CFI with an A&P ticket to manage and maintain the plane. Get your CFI done as quick as you can so you too can join the ranks of the blind leading the blind and building time on someone else's dime.
Click to expand...

Greg, if you can look past the delivery, this is very good advice.

Well, accept for the last paragraph. Not sure what fantasy world Henning is living in, where a poor college student can buy an IFR C150, and come up with all the additional costs associated with owning it.
 
Look at the cost of the cars many college students are driving. Working well paying ball busting jobs. Or making a deal with Mom and Dad have an IFR 150 well within range for college students. It is the independent thought required that is the hurdle, not $. Working for cash and being in a grant rich environment I had buckets of disposable income when I was in college. Spent most of it flying/jumping/traveling.:)

Mafoo said:
Greg, if you can look past the delivery, this is very good advice.

Well, accept for the last paragraph. Not sure what fantasy world Henning is living in, where a poor college student can buy an IFR C150, and come up with all the additional costs associated with owning it.
Click to expand...
 
Mafoo said:
Greg, if you can look past the delivery, this is very good advice.

Well, accept for the last paragraph. Not sure what fantasy world Henning is living in, where a poor college student can buy an IFR C150, and come up with all the additional costs associated with owning it.
Click to expand...

Same way every flight school does, by renting it out to others. You can only rent out property you own or control. Flight schools can manage leaseback arrangements, I'm not sure that a poor student can pull that off, but hey, if they can, go for it. A C-150 can be had for <$20k and doesn't cost a fortune to maintain, in fact it's as low price as they get. Typically university flight school program aircraft costs are exorbitant, if you can offer a useable machine at half the price, you will do a lot of business with it. If one is doing a business major, one can take this actual working business as their program project as well while simultaneously adding real business experience to their resume rather than just some classes.

If you don't have the wherewithal to finagle a plane to use and go through the university flight program, you can add at least $20k to come out as a CFI with nothing to your name except a plastic card, a sheepskin and a mountain of debt. I'm just trying to point out some options other people have worked to great effect.
 
Honestly, I don't understand all the bashing this poor kid is taking here.

He applied to, was accepted to, and enrolled in a degree program that includes flight training as part of the curriculum. This way, he can use student loans to get his degree and his tickets.

Now he's being told that the first semester class is full, and go to the airport for training, and presumably pay out of pocket for the class, as well as transportation to/from the airport.

It really seems to defeat the purpose.
 
Steve Foley said:
Honestly, I don't understand all the bashing this poor kid is taking here.

He applied to, was accepted to, and enrolled in a degree program that includes flight training as part of the curriculum. This way, he can use student loans to get his degree and his tickets.

Now he's being told that the first semester class is full, and go to the airport for training, and presumably pay out of pocket for the class, as well as transportation to/from the airport.

It really seems to defeat the purpose.
Click to expand...

Y'all do realize there are two threads going here and Mafoo is not bigblockz, right?

As far as signing up for a school that doesn't have their **** together, that's completely normal. The school is paid by maximizing the classrooms to overloading with students.

I had overloaded classes. I had to juggle to get into requiredthings.

When I read the story to Karen, her reaction was, "He just doesn't get it, does he?" as she related her story of taking night classes to finish up her nursing degree "on time" because there was no possible way to meet the requirements and go to class during the day, since many required courses overlapped.

It happens to everyone. It happens MORE at disorganized and/or lame schools who have no business taking my money. We have no control over who he chooses to hand his money to. We're just pointing out that they're not there for him, they're there to stuff classrooms full (especially undergrad) and maximize their profit margin.

Nothing new here. The young man is just surprised by it. My post was simply an injection of reality into his world. If no one told him stuff like this would happen, every single semester, they did him a disservice.

You adapt to their silliness or you change schools. It's a pay to play game, and they only respond to "my money and my time are going elsewhere". But not even really that. They don't care. You're a number on a computer printout.

You get to decide if it's worth it to you to fart around and get their paper. If you need their specific smell of paper, for a particular job that requires it, you buckle down and play their games.

Along the way you MIGHT get to know an instructor or two personally and find that they're actually interested in teaching something about aviation. Usually it happens over a beer at the bar, far away from the classroom.
 
denverpilot said:
Y'all do realize there are two threads going here and Mafoo is not bigblockz, right?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I do. I was ignoring the Mafoo sub-thread

As far as signing up for a school that doesn't have their **** together, that's completely normal. The school is paid by maximizing the classrooms to overloading with students.

I had overloaded classes. I had to juggle to get into requiredthings.
Click to expand...

Oh, I understand the concept. I just graduated from the Mickey Mouse School of Law where you had to camp out overnight to get into required classes. But my point is that this is a required first semester class. Not something that only runs once every few years. It seems similar to going to an engineering school and being told that Calculus I is full, but you can go across town and take it at another school.

You adapt to their silliness or you change schools. It's a pay to play game, and they only respond to "my money and my time are going elsewhere". But not even really that. They don't care. You're a number on a computer printout.
Click to expand...

Again, I understand. I just think the reaction from some of the posters was especially harsh. The guy's got a valid gripe, but is being lambasted for voicing that gripe.
 
Steve Foley said:
Honestly, I don't understand all the bashing this poor kid is taking here.

He applied to, was accepted to, and enrolled in a degree program that includes flight training as part of the curriculum. This way, he can use student loans to get his degree and his tickets.

Now he's being told that the first semester class is full, and go to the airport for training, and presumably pay out of pocket for the class, as well as transportation to/from the airport.

It really seems to defeat the purpose.
Click to expand...

He's being warned that this is just the tip of the iceberg and get used to it or find your own way around it because you are getting what you are given; if you don't like that, it's up to you to change it, no one else. It's a reality check to introduce him to the adult world where people are lazy and don't give a **** about you. Not to mention that the degree he is being sold is a bill of goods that can be replaced with one of twice the utility and half the cost.
 
I didn't go so far as to say it, hoping the young man would have his own epiphany. But yes, any school that's overloading first year classes, sucketh mightily, verily and forsooth.

The reality is, all aviation schools overload first year courses, because they know they'll have a 50% attrition rate due to running kids out of money by the third year. They'll happily take that free gub'mint cheese for two years, though.
 
DavidWhite said:
1 in 19000 are the numbers for any teenager with a private ticket or better.
Click to expand...

Without participating in the bickering...how exactly do you mean that? One in 19,000 people are teenagers with a private ticket, or one in 19,000 teenagers has a private ticket?
 
jpower said:
Without participating in the bickering...how exactly do you mean that? One in 19,000 people are teenagers with a private ticket, or one in 19,000 teenagers has a private ticket?
Click to expand...

The latter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top