Finally - Airlines are held responsible

[Dr. O]

All the arguing and logic chopping over FAA regs and ALPA rules, etc. in the world will not change facts...
Facts are, that passengers subjected to being stranded in a plane for [insert number] hours, prefer to be stranded in the terminal for [insert number] hours with working toilets, food dispensers, magazines, etc...
Congress has finally gotten that message and is doing what the founders envisioned - making the laws that the majority demand [a rare occurrence]...
Now, whether the rules that the Congress just handed down to the Airlines will accomplish that end, remains to be seen...

denny-o

 

[Everskyward]

If there's departure delays, why are they even boarding?

My answer was in reference to the question by Kent about when they bring the full airplane back to the gate why they don't just depart the one already sitting at the gate.

 

[wabower]

In most cases, because they think they may be able to make the trip, even if it's delayed. If they don't board, there's no chance. If you're in New York wanting to be in New Mexico, which do you want?

Bear in mind that if it's a weather-related event, the airlines don't owe you squat. For all they care you can rent an apartment and live in New York if you want, they aren't paying for your stay.

If there's departure delays, why are they even boarding?

 

[tdager]

Your choice, pal. Go quietly and we'll just use the wrist-ties. Make it tough on us and it's full cuffs and shackles.

What do you do on I-35 when you're trapped in a blizzard at mile marker 93 due to a semi accident blocking all four lanes?

Nothing...I am smart enough to look at the weather and make informed decisions about NOT getting on an Interstate in that weather...that is plain stupid.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If there's departure delays, why are they even boarding?

Because, most of the time (not always) those delays get shortened or outright cancelled and they get underway long before they otherwise might have, Seen that happen probably 90% of the time.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

My answer was in reference to the question by Kent about when they bring the full airplane back to the gate why they don't just depart the one already sitting at the gate.

I missed that one. And where would the one at the gate that is full go? Out in the line to wait? Oh wait. That plane isn't full because no one wants to wait in line for unknown amount of time. Why not pull the empty one off the gate so the loaded one can unload? Because the airport is gridlocked and there is no where to PUT the empty plane on the gate. I have seen that happen a time or two at O'Hare.

Pointed at Kent, not you, Mari.

 

[SkyHog]

My answer was in reference to the question by Kent about when they bring the full airplane back to the gate why they don't just depart the one already sitting at the gate.

But that's the point....if there's delays, that plane shouldn't even be at the gate taking on passengers yet.

 

[SkyHog]

I missed that one. And where would the one at the gate that is full go? Out in the line to wait? Oh wait. That plane isn't full because no one wants to wait in line for unknown amount of time. Why not pull the empty one off the gate so the loaded one can unload? Because the airport is gridlocked and there is no where to PUT the empty plane on the gate. I have seen that happen a time or two at O'Hare.

Pointed at Kent, not you, Mari.

They have places to park planes. I've seen it done before for many reasons. The airlines have 3 hours now, so they can back away from the gate, sit in the parking area and wait for a chance to leave.

Not gonna make it? Return and deplane.

 

[Everskyward]

I missed that one. And where would the one at the gate that is full go? Out in the line to wait? Oh wait. That plane isn't full because no one wants to wait in line for unknown amount of time. Why not pull the empty one off the gate so the loaded one can unload? Because the airport is gridlocked and there is no where to PUT the empty plane on the gate. I have seen that happen a time or two at O'Hare.

I can see that problem happening a lot if full airplanes start to return to the gate but there are no gates available.

 

[Greebo]

Someone elsewhere was all up in arms - "ABOUT TIME THEY DID THIS! THIS HAPPENED 800 TIMES LAST YEAR! DID YOU SEE THE NEWS???"

I said, "Can you tell me how many commercial flights happen in a day?"

"I'd guess about 4,000."

"Over 28,000. Per day. 800 in a year is 1 every 70,000 flights."

 

[SkyHog]

Someone elsewhere was all up in arms - "ABOUT TIME THEY DID THIS! THIS HAPPENED 800 TIMES LAST YEAR! DID YOU SEE THE NEWS???"

I said, "Can you tell me how many commercial flights happen in a day?"

"I'd guess about 4,000."

"Over 28,000. Per day. 800 in a year is 1 every 70,000 flights."

False imprisonment is false imprisonment, regardless of how often it happens.

 

[Greebo]

False imprisonment is false imprisonment, regardless of how often it happens.

Hey, I'm not saying that it's OK for the airlines to hold you hostage for longer than the actual length of the estimated flight or crap like that.

I'm just saying, this is hardly the major crisis in the airline industry that the media's making it out to be.

 

[wabower]

You're a pilot too, right? Why don't you just make the same decision about getting on the jet?

Nothing...I am smart enough to look at the weather and make informed decisions about NOT getting on an Interstate in that weather...that is plain stupid.

 

[SkyHog]

Hey, I'm not saying that it's OK for the airlines to hold you hostage for longer than the actual length of the estimated flight or crap like that.

I'm just saying, this is hardly the major crisis in the airline industry that the media's making it out to be.

I agree. But those numbers are using the 3 hour mark that Congress inappropriately picked. In the last 5 years, I'd wager that 75% of my flights have resulted in a considerable delay, sitting on the ramp, waiting for something for almost 2 hours.

I'd have liked to see 90 minutes as the threshold.

 

[Trapper John]

I agree. But those numbers are using the 3 hour mark that Congress inappropriately picked. In the last 5 years, I'd wager that 75% of my flights have resulted in a considerable delay, sitting on the ramp, waiting for something for almost 2 hours.

I'd have liked to see 90 minutes as the threshold.

What price are you willing to pay for 90 minutes of potential delay compared to 3 hours of potential delay?

If the hangup is number of gates available, then more gates are needed. But more gates cost money, and either the airlines pay for them directly, or as part of their gate leases at whatever airport. So, that's going to show up on the ticket cost, right?


Trapper John

 

[wabower]

Just as the weather is clearing and you've got a chance to get out? Would you rather be three hours late getting home, or seven hours late? Or pay for a room and get home sometime after lunch the next day?

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

They have places to park planes. I've seen it done before for many reasons. The airlines have 3 hours now, so they can back away from the gate, sit in the parking area and wait for a chance to leave.

Not gonna make it? Return and deplane.

 

[Greebo]

I agree. But those numbers are using the 3 hour mark that Congress inappropriately picked. In the last 5 years, I'd wager that 75% of my flights have resulted in a considerable delay, sitting on the ramp, waiting for something for almost 2 hours.

I'd have liked to see 90 minutes as the threshold.

Too bad. You got 3 hours. So 75% of your flights won't be changed.

Yay congress!

 

[SkyHog]

Just as the weather is clearing and you've got a chance to get out? Would you rather be three hours late getting home, or seven hours late? Or pay for a room and get home sometime after lunch the next day?

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

My understanding is that this has been addressed, and discretion is available if an immediate clearance is going to be available...

 

[Everskyward]

I agree. But those numbers are using the 3 hour mark that Congress inappropriately picked. In the last 5 years, I'd wager that 75% of my flights have resulted in a considerable delay, sitting on the ramp, waiting for something for almost 2 hours.

You must be really unlucky because I have never sat on the ramp for 2 hours in an airliner, in the terminal, yes, but not on the airplane.

 

[wabower]

I've sat in lots of cockpits for lots of hours during delays (including jumpseats in carriers prior to 9-11) and don't know how they think they can predict when a clearance will be immediate, or how that's defined unless you are #1 position and hold. And even then you can lose your spot or your timing.

I don't condone the conversion of airplane cabins into concentration camps, and don't like airline travel as the product is currently offered to the public. I have successfully limited my use of the airlines to one leg in 2009 and hopefully only two in 2010. OTOH, I know first-hand what goes on during those delays, and that the airlines hate it as badly as the passengers do, since they know nothing good will come from the publicity.

It will be interesting to see how they respond, and how the rhetoric will change. I predict that we'll see Schumer on TV railing about his constituents who "spent two and a half hours locked in the cabin of a jetliner on the tarmac at LGA, only to be taken back to the terminal and told their flight was cancelled and their bags would be available for pickup at the baggage claim area" and they were on their own to find a hotel during a terrible snowstorm that halted the cabs and hotel busses from running, and all the reasons why that policy is unacceptable.

Hope you're not on that flight. I know I won't be.

My understanding is that this has been addressed, and discretion is available if an immediate clearance is going to be available...

 

[Greebo]

Hey - food for thought here.

Who controls when the plane can even leave the gate?

 

[wsuffa]

They have places to park planes. I've seen it done before for many reasons. The airlines have 3 hours now, so they can back away from the gate, sit in the parking area and wait for a chance to leave.

Not gonna make it? Return and deplane.

You must be really unlucky because I have never sat on the ramp for 2 hours in an airliner, in the terminal, yes, but not on the airplane.

Oh, I have, Mari. And Nick, not always: see below.

Memorable events:

Coming back from Europe via JFK a few years ago we pushed close to on-time for the JFK-DCA segment. Number 97 for takeoff (for real). We got to #5 (2-1/2 hours) and hit min fuel. Back to the gate. Airline didn't want us to deboard - I called airline on cellphone and had them protect me on the later (last flight of the night). After another hour we were allowed off the plane and the flight canceled as the crew timed out.

DCA-SAT via DFW a couple of years ago. We got into DFW 3+ hours late (weather at DFW), to find all the gates full. It took 75 minutes for AA to find a gate for us to pull in to, and another 25 minutes to find a gate agent to pull the jetway up to the plane. Now midnight, I also found that all the evening flights on to SAT had been canceled. (Fortunately, I had booked a rental car for "backup" as soon as we landed and ended up driving to San Antonio... by the time we were off the plane, there was no availability of rentals).

Having said that, I also think the new rules - with no flexibility - will cause greater pain to passengers. After all, this gives airlines *yet another* excuse to cancel flights... and it doesn't even begin to address issues like the ATC system crashing like the flight-plan filing computer did a month ago.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

But that's the point....if there's delays, that plane shouldn't even be at the gate taking on passengers yet.

Where would you put it?

 

[Tristar]

I've been in similar situations. Thankfully I never had to sit in the airplane for 3+ hours but I have been diverted to another airport. They told us most security had gone home and there was no one to let us off the airplane. I have a hard time believing that any airport should be considered for an alternate if they are unprepared to handle one at all hours. How much security does ~30 passengers need? However, we were let off the airplane in an hour and had a bus within 2 hours.

 

[bockwoman3]

All the arguing and logic chopping over FAA regs and ALPA rules, etc. in the world will not change facts...
Facts are, that passengers subjected to being stranded in a plane for [insert number] hours, prefer to be stranded in the terminal for [insert number] hours with working toilets, food dispensers, magazines, etc...
Congress has finally gotten that message and is doing what the founders envisioned - making the laws that the majority demand [a rare occurrence]...
Now, whether the rules that the Congress just handed down to the Airlines will accomplish that end, remains to be seen...

denny-o

Congress likes to hand down rules...and leaves the fixing to the airlines (or whatever business is affected by the ruling) when its not always their problem & no easy fixes...which...results in higher overhead which results in higher fees to passengers (customers)...which in turn customers bitc...about the prices. Airlines are like all other for-profit businesses...they are created to make money and not lose money or they can't and won't stay in business.

And...oh wait!...never mind that if I were to take that same trip via car or others means it would cost as much or more dollars AND take 2-5+ times longer (unless its flying one's self & there's no weather delays or mechanical delays) to make it to the destination...even many times if, God forbid, a flight is delayed. If the difference in time between flying and driving isn't all that great (you make the judgement has to what isn't all that great) then maybe a person should opt to not fly. When we purchase an airline ticket we do so with the knowledge that flying airlines have their limitations just like everything else in life...and except in rare circumstances, we know ahead of time what those limitations are including but not limited to bad customer service & flight delays.

Having said all that...I personally think its ridiculous and no excuse for a flight to get left on an airplane for more than 2-3 hours except in very rare circumstances.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I've been in similar situations. Thankfully I never had to sit in the airplane for 3+ hours but I have been diverted to another airport. They told us most security had gone home and there was no one to let us off the airplane. I have a hard time believing that any airport should be considered for an alternate if they are unprepared to handle one at all hours. How much security does ~30 passengers need? However, we were let off the airplane in an hour and had a bus within 2 hours.

THAT is what needs to change. THAT is controllable. Weather issues need some latitude.

 

[Ted]

Everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In most cases, because they think they may be able to make the trip, even if it's delayed. If they don't board, there's no chance. If you're in New York wanting to be in New Mexico, which do you want?

If I'm in New York or Chicago or whatever, and I want to be home in Madison... I'd still rather get stuck for the night OFF the plane, than sit for 6 hours on the ground ON the plane. Period, end of story. When these planes do get stranded, how many pax did you hear saying "I wish we could have stayed on the plane for just a few more minutes so we could get going..."???

Also, I'd be very interested in actual statistics as to how many of the 3+ hour strandings happened before takeoff and how many were after landing. As annoying as sitting in New York might be when I want to be home, it would be orders of magnitude more... Okay, not even in the realm of "annoying" but "aggravated and furious" if I had to sit on the ramp for 6 hours at my home airport!

 

[Ted]

When these planes do get stranded, how many pax did you hear saying "I wish we could have stayed on the plane for just a few more minutes so we could get going..."???

Zero, because nobody made the announcement "We were #1 for departure, but our time ran out."

 

[Greg Bockelman]

As annoying as sitting in New York might be when I want to be home, it would be orders of magnitude more... Okay, not even in the realm of "annoying" but "aggravated and furious" if I had to sit on the ramp for 6 hours at my home airport!

Exactly. And I think THAT is the issue that should be addressed. There is very little to NO excuse for that.

Departure delays are a separate issue and have their own set of problems.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And where would the one at the gate that is full go? Out in the line to wait? Oh wait. That plane isn't full because no one wants to wait in line for unknown amount of time.

If they want to catch their flight, they'll get on the plane, especially if they know they WON'T be required to sit on the plane longer than 3 hours. Without this new rule, I'd sure be hesitant!

Why not pull the empty one off the gate so the loaded one can unload? Because the airport is gridlocked and there is no where to PUT the empty plane on the gate. I have seen that happen a time or two at O'Hare.

Considering that this is an unusual situation, I'm sure you can find space at ORD. Hell, tow 'em over to Signature's ramp, or stack 'em up in front of United's maintenance hangar if you have to. There is room - Just not necessarily the most convenient room.

 

[Ted]

Considering that this is an unusual situation, I'm sure you can find space at ORD. Hell, tow 'em over to Signature's ramp, or stack 'em up in front of United's maintenance hangar if you have to. There is room - Just not necessarily the most convenient room.

So how do you propose to move all of those planes across the airport at the same time like that when they have a hard enough time dealing with current capacity at the gates?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Congress likes to hand down rules...and leaves the fixing to the airlines (or whatever business is affected by the ruling) when its not always their problem & no easy fixes...

Easy fixes? No. Possible fixes? Yes. The airlines chose not to do the possible, and thus invited this reg.

which...results in higher overhead which results in higher fees to passengers (customers)...which in turn customers bitc...about the prices. Airlines are like all other for-profit businesses...they are created to make money and not lose money or they can't and won't stay in business.

The airlines? Raise prices? Doubt it. Their managements are too stupid. They'll just go after their employees to give back more money.

 

[Ted]

Andrew, these are problems that are easily solvable. The airlines simply chose not to solve them.

Easy fixes? No. Possible fixes? Yes. The airlines chose not to do the possible, and thus invited this reg.

Umm...?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So how do you propose to move all of those planes across the airport at the same time like that when they have a hard enough time dealing with current capacity at the gates?

If need be, the crew originally assigned to the flight can taxi them where they need to go.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Their managements are too stupid. They'll just go after their employees to give back more money.

That isn't entirely true. Every time one company tries to raise prices, one of two things happen. Maybe more. But one, no one else matches, and they have to lower the prices to maintain market share, or two, the passengers complain that they have to pay an extra 10 bucks to cover some unneeded service they feel they don't need.

And so it goes.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If need be, the crew originally assigned to the flight can taxi them where they need to go.

Well, THAT isn't as easy as it would seem. There may or may not be contractual issues with that. And there may or may not be duty/flight time issues with that.

Nothing about any of this is as cut and dried as people seem to think it is.

 

[Ted]

That isn't entirely true. Every time one company tries to raise prices, one of two things happen. Maybe more. But one, no one else matches, and they have to lower the prices to maintain market share, or two, the passengers complain that they have to pay an extra 10 bucks to cover some unneeded service they feel they don't need.

I've often wondered how the price structure actually does work. I book flights to Belgium and Paris frequently for my mom (she hasn't learned how to use Delta.com yet and probably never will). So it's the same route over all different types of year. I can't make any rhyme or reason of how much it costs and why it fluctuates as much as it does. I'm also not in tune with all the factors. It seems to me like it shouldn't be cheap - that's a long trip. But I've seen it vary from $500 to $2000 for the same flight on the same airline. Now I realize that's a lot different than domestic flights that people might be more in tune with, but I admittedly don't know why that goes on (other than the obvious supply/demand). Doubly so when fares go up $100 or more over the 30-minute period when my mom is being indecisive trying to save $10 on a ticket that she's now paying an extra $50 for. Maybe they know I'm looking at tickets for her.

So my point - obviously everyone will notice the extra $100, and they might notice the extra $10 on cheaper domestic flights, but would the average consumer really notice a $10 price change across an airline?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

 

[gprellwitz]

Doubly so when fares go up $100 or more over the 30-minute period when my mom is being indecisive trying to save $10 on a ticket that she's now paying an extra $50 for. Maybe they know I'm looking at tickets for her.

Actually, they do know you're looking. Not you in particular, but that people are showing an increased interest. They also have complex algorithms on the back end that look at time to departure, proportion of each seat type available, and probably the phase of the moon.

 

[Ted]

Actually, they do know you're looking. Not you in particular, but that people are showing an increased interest. They also have complex algorithms on the back end that look at time to departure, proportion of each seat type available, and probably the phase of the moon.

And when the moon is full...

It makes sense. I'd figure that they'd use something to figure out when people are looking and raise fares accordingly. What a complicated world we live in. It's harder to negotiate with a computer than with a human.