Filing Direct

[dmccormack]

I read an article a while back in which the author suggested always filing Direct in an RNAV equipped airplane. He said "You're gonna get re-routed anyway so why not?"

The reasoning made sense, but I couldn't bring myself to do that every time.

So on a Recent trip to Ocean City, MD from Pittsburgh area, I submitted the most direct routing possible -- it took me to MRB, then BAL, then Direct OXB.

In flight Washington Center gave me an amendment -- MRB via V214 to BAL -- that only required adding the WOOLY intersection -- no big deal, and no big change in time or distance.

So who else is fling direct or nearly so these days, fully expecting routing amendments during clearance delivery or in flight?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Its a fun exercise, trying to figure out what makes the most sense and what is most likely. Sometimes I will use flightaware and actually get what they say is common. If short on time, or not in the mood to play the game, direct it is. I used to try to preplan every wp, but it no longer holds the same interest!

 

[dmccormack]

Its a fun exercise, trying to figure out what makes the most sense and what is most likely. Sometimes I will use flightaware and actually get what they say is common. If short on time, or not in the mood to play the game, direct it is. I used to try to preplan every wp, but it no longer holds the same interest!

The Preferred IFR routes hardly ever align with my departure and destination.

I still enjoy flight planning for longer XC -- but so much is now automatic that the time investment is small.

 

[Danos]

Direct. But good luck with that here.

 

[timwinters]

Direct and it rarely gets changed unless an MOA is active...you guys need to move west!

 

[ScottM]

Does not matter what I file. I will be given the clearence "upon entering controlled airspace heading of 180, Radar Vectors to Peotone, climb to 3000 expect your final altitude later"

 

[sba55]

After discussing this with lots of ATC folks and even witnessing what happens when people file D -> some airport 1000 NM away, I don't do direct for more than a few hundred miles anymore (never really did anyway).

The argument that one will get re-routed anyways might be true in some areas. In others, however, it's not. Most ATC scopes can paint a line to the next fix, but apparently that doesn't always work. If you get handed off to the next controller and you're direct to some fix 500 NM away that the controller doesn't know, he has no idea what heading you'll be flying, unless he can use that map tool. That has all sorts of unintended consequences.

I file direct between points that I know ATC in that area will be familiar with. For example, I don't mind filing San Francisco direct Palmdale in SoCal because I know that every controller around here knows where Palmdale is. But I wouldn't file San Francisco direct Texaco (besides, that's against AIM recommendations).

-Felix

 

[Jim Burns]

I always file direct and haven't had many re-routes, even on long flights. I may have gotten a few radar vectors for traffic but haven't had the dreaded "ATC has new routing instructions, please advise when you're able to copy" in ages.

When flying south then east around ORD I know I'm going to get a re-direct to Kelsi intersection, so I pre-empt it and file direct Kelsi direct destination.

 

[dmccormack]

I always file direct and haven't had many re-routes, even on long flights. I may have gotten a few radar vectors for traffic but haven't had the dreaded "ATC has new routing instructions, please advise when you're able to copy" in ages.

When flying south then east around ORD I know I'm going to get a re-direct to Kelsi intersection, so I pre-empt it and file direct Kelsi direct destination.

I mentioned in another thread that a few weeks ago while flying from FWQ to PVG I received a routing change with each controller handoff though Potomac -- I had filed along airways intentionally in order to fit into the system.

When I signed on to the next I said, "Potomac Approach, Cessna Me, level at 9000 and ready to copy new routing."

He gave me direct from present position.

Not long ago flying from LNS to FWQ I received a routing change on climb out from LNS that added nearly 10 minutes to the 70 minute flight. MDT wasn't very busy (in fact I didn't hear much other traffic at all that Sunday evening utnil I climbed high enough to get handed off to NY Center).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I always file direct and haven't had many re-routes, even on long flights. I may have gotten a few radar vectors for traffic but haven't had the dreaded "ATC has new routing instructions, please advise when you're able to copy" in ages.

When flying south then east around ORD I know I'm going to get a re-direct to Kelsi intersection, so I pre-empt it and file direct Kelsi direct destination.

Jim,

The one time I got into the ORD Bravo while IFR, I'd done exactly that - Direct KELSI, direct KMSN. Usually you never talk to Chicago Approach when doing that, but I guess I grazed the southern part of their airspace and got handed off. Since it's Center that normally has everyone going to KELSI, they're the ones who know where it is. So, the approach controller ended up asking "71G, are you direct Madison?" to which I replied "Negative, I'm direct KELSI, then direct Madison." He said "I can't find KELSI in my computer, would you like direct Madison?"

Well, ya don't have to ask me twice. Got some good shots out of the deal too:

(My brother took the pix, I just flew and enjoyed the view!)

 

[SCCutler]

I always, but always, get a SID/STAR, into and out of the DFW area, so I try to file what I think I'll get. In the directions I am most accustomed to going and arriving from, I can almost always file what they'll give me anyway.

Going to Fredericksburg? "Bonanza Niner Two Romeo is cleared to the Gillespie County Airport via radar vectors Joe Pool Three Departure Waco Transition Direct Climb and maintain two thousand, expect eight thousand one zero minutes after departure Departure frequency one two four point three squawk xxxx"

All I really need to listen for in most instances, is the squawk.

 

[CJones]

I always file direct, but 99% of my flying is from IA -> AL, which only comes close to STL. Usually I'm high enough that I actually get to go right over the top.

Dad has been in-and-out of SAT a few times over the past year since my sister has been down there. He said that's the only time he's ever had to plug a full routing in the 430. He's finally starting to figure out the routing he'll get. Sometimes it's a SID and sometimes it's just their own make-it-up SID to get him out of the area.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I do not have an IFR GPS so that limits me but in just a year of IFR flying and only around a half a dozen XC flights I have obesrved the following.

I can expect to be re-routed over Lake Erie around the DTW and CLE class Bravo no matter what I file.

VOR to VOR is not always better than filing and flying the airway. Especially over our lowly Eastern Mountains when ICE is above. The jogs in the airways are there for a reason.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Just depends on where I'm going and if I've flown the route before. I look at Fltplan.com, but cull out the jet routes. Out of ADS, as Spike has said, I file a DP. If going north--direct. If going East, I will be route around MOAs if they are active; so, I pick an intersection that puts me inbetween. To Florida, direct Hevvn Intersection, arrival to Orlando. To San Diego, direct El Paso, then between restricted space and MOAs.
So, it just depends. If I'm not in a busy area, direct and arrival if appropriate.

Best,

Dave

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Up here you get rerouted no matter what you file, but the TEC routes are typically always valid around here. Occasionally you'll get something different, but it is normally when you're airborne and 30 miles from your departure airport when they start playing the reroute game with you.

Fltplan.com's latest planned ATC routes which comes off the ARTCC host computers works very well. Combine that with local knowledge of the area, and you can typically get as filed. At least from the FD controller.

 

[Lance F]

Kent, Beautiful pictures. Thanks for posting them. I've flown into ORD MANY times commercially at night. I was always happy with a window seat because Chicago's lights are so pretty and distinctive.

 

[Everskyward]

Fltplan.com's latest planned ATC routes which comes off the ARTCC host computers works very well.

I have found that to be true too, and I have very little local knowledge of the northeast route structure. I think it sometimes surprises my flying buddies that I often get "cleared as filed" in the northeast.

In other places I usually file the SID, if I know what it's going to be, and sometimes the STAR or an arrival fix, but I don't normally file airways or intermediate fixes unless I know I'm going to get it. KTEB-KAPA is always ELIOT J60 IOW SAYGE.SAYGE6.

 

[timwinters]

Actually, I've found that when I file direct to an intersection and then direct destination in order to avoid a Class Bravo area (KC and MEM are good examples), the controllers will typically offer me direct and clear me through the Class Bravo.

The exception to this is ATL. I used to regularly fly to GA and I'd always skirt around ATL because I KNEW they didn't want bug smashers transitioning through their space. Amazingly ATL appr. (the old Macon Appr.) would always try to convince me it was okay to go direct. I fell for it once. Got to the border of the Class Bravo and was vectored around by the real ATL appr. On each subsequent trip, when Macon Appr. would offer direct, I would decline and explain why. For some reason they never did understand and they'd try to convince me that I would be just fine transitioning SW to NE across ATL's Class bravo at 6k to 8k...

 

[gprellwitz]

Through Chicago I'll file SIMMN if heading North or EON if going south or east. They usually don't send me to KELSI, but that's probably because I'm going to/from 1C5. Beyond that, I file direct to, often, an IAF. Leslie will normally do the full airways thing. They'll often offer direct once beyond EON anyway, and they'll usually give vectors to that point.

 

[Lance F]

The exception to this is ATL. I used to regularly fly to GA and I'd always skirt around ATL because I KNEW they didn't want bug smashers transitioning through their space. Amazingly ATL appr. (the old Macon Appr.) would always try to convince me it was okay to go direct. I fell for it once. Got to the border of the Class Bravo and was vectored around by the real ATL appr. On each subsequent trip, when Macon Appr. would offer direct, I would decline and explain why. For some reason they never did understand and they'd try to convince me that I would be just fine transitioning SW to NE across ATL's Class bravo at 6k to 8k...

Now the Atlanta TRACON is all in one big room, so the old Macon App absolutely doesn't exist anymore. That being said I've NEVER been given a clearance into Atlanta's Bravo in my bug smasher. But I do consider Atlanta approach to be very helpful, friendly and positive to the little guys.

 

[Jim Burns]

Jim,

The one time I got into the ORD Bravo while IFR, I'd done exactly that - Direct KELSI, direct KMSN. Usually you never talk to Chicago Approach when doing that, but I guess I grazed the southern part of their airspace and got handed off. Since it's Center that normally has everyone going to KELSI, they're the ones who know where it is. So, the approach controller ended up asking "71G, are you direct Madison?" to which I replied "Negative, I'm direct KELSI, then direct Madison." He said "I can't find KELSI in my computer, would you like direct Madison?"

Back when ORD was a TCA... wow, that took some memory! anyway, the ceiling was 10k... I flew VFR right over the top and the controller told me to look down "at the businest airport in the world"... I asked him if he'd ever been to OSH and he laughed.

Great pics!

 

[dmccormack]

Now the Atlanta TRACON is all in one big room, so the old Macon App absolutely doesn't exist anymore. That being said I've NEVER been given a clearance into Atlanta's Bravo in my bug smasher. But I do consider Atlanta approach to be very helpful, friendly and positive to the little guys.

Gotta give props to NY Approach as well -- fast, professional, and -- if they can tell you're on your game -- will work with you.

If not, adios, amigo.

 

[Jim Burns]

Through Chicago I'll file SIMMN if heading North or EON if going south or east. They usually don't send me to KELSI, but that's probably because I'm going to/from 1C5. Beyond that, I file direct to, often, an IAF. Leslie will normally do the full airways thing. They'll often offer direct once beyond EON anyway, and they'll usually give vectors to that point.

If memory serves me at all, I think I used to file EON then Chicago Heights, then South Bend to get around the south end of the lake, but that was a long time ago.

 

[dmccormack]

Back when ORD was a TCA... wow, that took some memory! anyway, the ceiling was 10k... I flew VFR right over the top and the controller told me to look down "at the businest airport in the world"... I asked him if he'd ever been to OSH and he laughed

Usually you're better off filing a route directly OVER Class B airports. It's worked for me at PIT, BWI, LGA, EWK, and many Class C.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Gotta give props to NY Approach as well -- fast, professional, and -- if they can tell you're on your game -- will work with you.

If not, adios, amigo.

Yeup. I've never been denied a Class Bravo transition in NY airspace, ever. I haven't always gotten the altitude I had initially requested in the transition, but I was never denied a clearance to enter the bravo. You can negotiate just about anything as long as you sound like you know what you're doing.

 

[TknoFlyer]

After reading Don Brown's old AvWeb column for a few years (at least before he retired), I started filing airways for XC IFR. I've found it doesn't add much to most flights and offers the added benefit having the system know where to expect you.

However, more often than not, ATC ends up offering a shortcut direct routing that I gladly accept.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

After reading Don Brown's old AvWeb column for a few years (at least before he retired), I started filing airways for XC IFR. I've found it doesn't add much to most flights and offers the added benefit having the system know where to expect you.

I don't recall Don Brown ever saying that you should file airways despite being /G...

What I do recall him saying was to file a flight plan that the controller can understand. Departing from Hartford, CT the controller is unlikely to know where the heck C81 is, for example. So, you're supposed to either file a waypoint based on a VOR near the center borders, OR file to a high-altitude VOR which they can look up from any Center. Oh, and file to an IAF, not an airport. That's all I can remember him saying about the subject.

 

[sba55]

I don't recall Don Brown ever saying that you should file airways despite being /G...

What I do recall him saying was to file a flight plan that the controller can understand. Departing from Hartford, CT the controller is unlikely to know where the heck C81 is, for example. So, you're supposed to either file a waypoint based on a VOR near the center borders, OR file to a high-altitude VOR which they can look up from any Center. Oh, and file to an IAF, not an airport. That's all I can remember him saying about the subject.

That was the gist of what he said. Basically, he made some excellent points about why the AIM's recommendations re. IFR filing actually make sense, and why the airlines save ATC a lot of work by not just filing airport-direct-airport. Those sort of flight plans go against AIM recommendations, and they increase controller workload significantly. Yet, pilots, mostly GA ones, do it all the time.

-Felix

 

[TknoFlyer]

I don't recall Don Brown ever saying that you should file airways despite being /G...

Oh, sure he he did. Hit Google with "don brown file airways site:avweb.com" and this one (among others) comes up:
http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/185690-1.html?type=pf

Granted, he's quoting the AIM, but that's what he did a lot - especially when it helped reinforce his point. Like this one:

There are thousands upon thousands of IFR flight plans filed every day with nothing but the departure point and the destination in the route of flight. But the second the system hiccups, they're all put back on airways. Radar goes out? Back on the airways. When Washington Center had their recent radar problems they put a restriction out for everyone entering their airspace (the whole ARTCC) to be on the airways. When Hurricane Katrina struck and knocked out some infrastructure (radios and radars), we had to put flights back on the airways. When every midnight shift ends -- when traffic starts building back up to normal levels -- we start putting more and more flights back on the airways...

Like I said, it's what I file (which is what the poll question asked), not necessarily what I want, expect or get.

However, like many folks flying around large metro areas, I expect certain behavior/routing from the local controllers. For example, I know no matter what I file coming home to Leesburg, VA (KJYO) from the south, I'm going to get the COATT4 arrival. Departing KJYO to anywhere I'm going to get "D-> STILL", then RV to a local VOR or intersection, then an airway to get me out of the area in the general direction of travel.

Once out of the hustle & bustle of the DC metro area, controllers usually start offering D-> routing.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Don and I had a few debates <g>. We still do on AvSig. He told you what Hotlanta center did. I tried some of his tips at D/FW and it's just not what they wanted. I've flown right over Hotlanta IFR direct many a time. As I said, it really depends on what you're doing and where you're going. Look at Fltplan.com and see how many flight plans are direct from the DP at D/FW to Orlando. One knows it all depends on the MOAs and restricted areas at Eglin and Tindall as far as what they will get over the FL panhandle. Direct has never been a problem on that route, you just know those two areas will probably re-route you. Weather also comes into play. In FL in the afternoon you can bet you will be routed around weather this time of year.

Best,

Dave

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh, sure he he did. Hit Google with "don brown file airways site:avweb.com" and this one (among others) comes up:
http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/185690-1.html?type=pf

Well, I'll be.

I had to look around a bit because the AIM section he was quoting has a different number now (5-1-8(b)(1)) but it's still there.

I do know that my CFII told me to always *have* a plan via airways in case of a radar outage, but I don't think he said to *file* it every time. But, I can see how a sudden radar outage could really mess up ATC with all of us filed-direct flivvers.

Of course, once a route is changed (ie, first controller gives you direct destination or something), do later controllers on your route even have access to the route you originally filed?

I think this is one of those aviation things that will be debated forever. Out here in the midwest, we get direct-to pretty much any time we're not trying to fly near Chicago Approach airspace. I guess that's made me a bit lazy in my filing habits.

 

[gismo]

I use a mixture of departure to destination direct, routes with 1 or 2 VORs, and, occasional airways. It's pretty rare that I'll fly airways for an entire trip but over the mountains I often come pretty close to that. Generally I add VORs when I want to avoid certain airspace (e.g. ORD, ATL, or STL Class B, active military space etc), as I've found that ATC will often accept a route initially and then give you a big dogleg when you get close.

The MSP Class B started doling out DPs to all IFR flights at or above 7000 MSL from my home base a few years ago, but I almost never file them (too lazy I guess, my Flitesoft planner doesn't do well with these). Instead I will often file 5 or 6 thousand and then ask for higher once I'm clear of the Class B. The concept seems rather stupid from my perspective since ATC will almost never let you above 3000-4000 until then anyway and the DPs are pure nonsense, requiring you to head directly to the main MSP airport (which almost never happens once airborne) no matter which way you're headed, including a route that would lead directly away from MSP.

Outside the Rockies and east coast (rarely go there) I hardly ever file airways for any significant portion of my route. Many of the routes I fly have no reasonable airway path that doesn't add considerable mileage and airway routes leave a lot to be desired when you need to deviate around weather. On top of that, many of the plausible airway routes I could file take you right through a Class B, which generally isn't going to be allowed at the altitudes I fly.

One thing I've almost never done is to put a waypoint in each center's airspace on a long flight and I've never, ever had ATC ask where I'm headed except when just starting out.

 

[ScottM]

After reading Don Brown's old AvWeb column for a few years (at least before he retired), I started filing airways for XC IFR. I've found it doesn't add much to most flights and offers the added benefit having the system know where to expect you.

However, more often than not, ATC ends up offering a shortcut direct routing that I gladly accept.

I don't recall Don Brown ever saying that you should file airways despite being /G...

What I do recall him saying was to file a flight plan that the controller can understand. Departing from Hartford, CT the controller is unlikely to know where the heck C81 is, for example. So, you're supposed to either file a waypoint based on a VOR near the center borders, OR file to a high-altitude VOR which they can look up from any Center. Oh, and file to an IAF, not an airport. That's all I can remember him saying about the subject.

I started doing that stuff also based on what Don Brown had written. But the third time I did it I still got an amended route that sent me to my destination direct. I just stopped it and kept filing direct. Less paperwork for me since they really did not want to hear what I wanted anyways.

 

[BartY]

Actually, I've found that when I file direct to an intersection and then direct destination in order to avoid a Class Bravo area (KC and MEM are good examples), the controllers will typically offer me direct and clear me through the Class Bravo.

The exception to this is ATL. I used to regularly fly to GA and I'd always skirt around ATL because I KNEW they didn't want bug smashers transitioning through their space. Amazingly ATL appr. (the old Macon Appr.) would always try to convince me it was okay to go direct. I fell for it once. Got to the border of the Class Bravo and was vectored around by the real ATL appr. On each subsequent trip, when Macon Appr. would offer direct, I would decline and explain why. For some reason they never did understand and they'd try to convince me that I would be just fine transitioning SW to NE across ATL's Class bravo at 6k to 8k...

How long ago was this? I did most of my flight training on the south side of Atlanta (FFC and CCO) and regularly went "over the top" of ATL to get to PDK and other points north and north-east of town. For grins, if I was up later at night, I'd ask approach if I could get a full stop (no touch and goes there!) at Hartsfield. I brought along a video camera for one of them and got some pretty decent footage of what coming into ATL on 27L in a 172 looks like!

I just wish I had thought to do the same when my cousin wanted to go pick up his paycheck (he used to work for AirTran) and didn't want to drive to get it. We loaded up in the club's Cherokee 140 and actually got cleared to land at Atlanta...at 2 in the afternoon.

 

[wayne]

It depends upon my flight. I did on Sunday from RYY to CHA and then again on the way back. ATC gives different things on that route, although usually BUNNI2 on the way back. I don't usually file Direct the whole way, because I'll never get it when starting under the Atlanta Class B. I will file Direct via a limited number of points though. My goal is to go as direct as possible, but I'll plan for airspace deviations so I don't get rerouted at the last second.

There's no sense in plotting a Direct course through a TFR or Prohibited space, and I avoid R space too. MOA's I'll plot around if it's not much distance, otherwise I plan through and see what happens. Or I'll plan around and then ask if I can go direct through once in the air. My hope is that a good path will get me less "ammendments" from ATC.

On a trip from Fernandina Beach (55J) to Sarasota (SRQ) during SnF I flew IFR in nice weather due to concern for more planes; extra eyes and being 500' off of the VFR altitudes was my theory. I also plotted a course through the MOA and R-space, including over one. Good thing, all of it was hot and people were getting warned off (MOA) and denied (R-space) by ATC, but I had smooth sailing as I had picked a good route. ATC helped by giving me a more western approach to SRQ on the west side of TPA. A few more miles, but less traffic and a beautiful view of the coast, gulf and Tampa.

When I file I rarely include a Victor airway. I'll file direct between VOR's even if there's an airway. I'll fly them when ATC assigns them, but not otherwise.

 

[Pi1otguy]

As a renter I rarely file as if I have GPS due to occasional db currency issues. Once outside of the busy SoCal air, I often get direct to the furthest waypoint within each center or approach's airspace.

 

[wayne]

Now the Atlanta TRACON is all in one big room, so the old Macon App absolutely doesn't exist anymore. That being said I've NEVER been given a clearance into Atlanta's Bravo in my bug smasher. But I do consider Atlanta approach to be very helpful, friendly and positive to the little guys.

Never? Wow. I go through on a regular basis. Out of FTY or RYY going to Jekyll or Florida. I often get TRBOW on the way back, but actually got VFR south-to-north to FTY coming back from Florida in April (VFR since the vacuum died while in IMC and I landed and waited in Eastman until VFR weather).

 

[Ted]

Yeup. I've never been denied a Class Bravo transition in NY airspace, ever. I haven't always gotten the altitude I had initially requested in the transition, but I was never denied a clearance to enter the bravo. You can negotiate just about anything as long as you sound like you know what you're doing.

I'll have to share my experience otherwise.

I've made three trips near NY Bravo. On two of them, I got clearance through the Bravo no sweat. Like you said, if you sound like you know what you're doing and act professional, that goes a long way. I suppose I sound enough like I know what I'm doing. You have to be quick and on the ball, but so long as you are, you're good to go.

When you'll get an "UNABLE Remain clear of Bravo" in my experience is on a MVFR day when everybody's filing IFR. They have too much going on then between all the IFR GA traffic and dealing with all the flights into and out of the major airports. One Sunday I was flying home to IPT from FRG, and it had been MVFR all day. It cleared up enough that it looked like I'd be alright to make it home, so I hopped in the Archer and off I went. Got my "UNABLE" immediately upon contact. So, I stayed low and plugged HPN in. HPN was great, handled me through their airspace, and then I was on my way and picked up flight following by Wilkes-Barre.

For this reason, when I go through a Bravo while VFR I make at least two plans. One is ideal, and one is assuming that they respond "NO BRAVO FOR YOU!" That way, I don't have to come up with this stuff on the fly.

Of course, I notice that this planning is easier and takes significantly less time as I fly more. Using the GPS helps a lot, too.

I'm not going to answer this question, either, since I don't have my instrument ticket. The planes I fly don't have IFR GPSs anyway, so forget about filing direct.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Not an instrument pilot, so I can't say what I'd do, but here's a trick that I heard from Daniel Baker, the founder and CEO of FlightAware:

Set up an alert so you get a text message or email whenever a flight plan is filed for your plane. Then, just file direct. The actual routing that is entered into the system is what will be sent to you in the alert. That way, you don't have to write down your full route clearance as ATC says it, you're just verifying it with what was sent to you.

On my King Air flight the other day, the PIC filed direct KERV - KSGR. When I called up for our clearance while airborne (KERV is non-towered), they gave us D -> SAT, D-> SEEDS SEEDS.LISSE6 KSGR. Not to toot my own horn, but I was actually pretty impressed myself that as an 80-hr VFR-only Private Pilot, I knew and understood what they were talking about! (Thank you VATSIM!)

 

[phkmn]

Out of Gary, IN I use airways if convenient, otherwise direct via common waypoints that put me on convenient airways from time to time. I came direct from Louisville one time and they lost me completely for a while.

This doesn't always work. If I'm headed anywhere from NW through East, they always route me at 060 or 360 straight over Lake Michigan.

So my first call is usually "Chicago Departure, Bonanza 18S out of 2000 for 3000, can I get closer inshore?"

They usually oblige. I have tried putting "avoid offshore" in my flight plan but it never seems to do any good.

I tried refusing the clearance once and ended up sitting on the taxiway for 10-15 minutes before I got a new clearance, so won't do that again.