Felony as a youngster

Henning said:
That is because we turned incarceration into a for profit business.
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Yep. And we also elect the next ******* because he says he'll be "tougher on crime" than the last guy and the idiot public laps it up. Vicious cycle.
 
also, apparently in florida, juveniles are "adjudicated delinquent" not convicted.
 
The question on the 8500-8 affidavit is "have you ever in your life" not "is there findable record of".

Although if there is no findable record, in this computer culture it's nearly the same thing. Trouble is, there's always a website with the old data on it.....so it never really goes away.

Airlines are going to ask about criminal history. If he omits there, and it is found, he is dismissed even 20 years after hiring.

I urge the attorney if you and your daughter are serious enough about this young man. GET GOOD advice!

**********and remember, there are many many fish in the sea...... "sigh......". :(
 
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bruce

is answering yes to -8 result in an automatic referral? or is it up to the examiner?
 
It is up to the examiner but he will be second guessed 100% of the time so unless he is totally well equipped with total information to present to the agency at time of exam, they will all defer. Then all that total information has to get sent in, and the wait begins.

The list of Mandatory denials is in Federal Register Feb 19, 2002 (V67, number 33) page 7537-7545. This young man's offense may not appear there, but that is why you need good counsel. Definitions, definitions, definitions.

"Felony involving Willful destruction of property" is item 26 (i). He seriously needs an attorney's advice.
 
bbchien said:
This young man's offense may not appear there, but that is why you need good counsel. Definitions, definitions, definitions.
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That is why he needs an attorney.....
 
I started looking into that too, but what the law says, and what the FAA says are usually 2 different things...

here is what the florida statute says

985.35(6)

Except as the term “conviction” is used in chapter 322, and except for use in a subsequent proceeding under this chapter, an adjudication of delinquency by a court with respect to any child who has committed a delinquent act or violation of law shall not be deemed a conviction; nor shall the child be deemed to have been found guilty or to be a criminal by reason of that adjudication; nor shall that adjudication operate to impose upon the child any of the civil disabilities ordinarily imposed by or resulting from conviction or to disqualify or prejudice the child in any civil service application or appointment, with the exception of the use of records of proceedings under this chapter as provided in s. 985.045(4).


I got all the info i need, i think he needs a consult with a lawyer, but at least i know it is at least feasible, getting the medical initially will be problematic, but possible.

Im sure there is a lawyer out there somewhere who has experienced this and would know off the top of his head.

So i can advise him and point him in the right direction, and give him a realistic view of what he will be facing.
 
delphipgmr said:
I started looking into that too, but what the law says, and what the FAA says are usually 2 different things...

here is what the florida statute says

985.35(6)

Except as the term “conviction” is used in chapter 322, and except for use in a subsequent proceeding under this chapter, an adjudication of delinquency by a court with respect to any child who has committed a delinquent act or violation of law shall not be deemed a conviction; nor shall the child be deemed to have been found guilty or to be a criminal by reason of that adjudication; nor shall that adjudication operate to impose upon the child any of the civil disabilities ordinarily imposed by or resulting from conviction or to disqualify or prejudice the child in any civil service application or appointment, with the exception of the use of records of proceedings under this chapter as provided in s. 985.045(4).


I got all the info i need, i think he needs a consult with a lawyer, but at least i know it is at least feasible, getting the medical initially will be problematic, but possible.

Im sure there is a lawyer out there somewhere who has experienced this and would know off the top of his head.

So i can advise him and point him in the right direction, and give him a realistic view of what he will be facing.
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Be sure to get a Florida lawyer. I understand that even discussing or thinking about Florida law without a Florida law license constitutes the unauthorized practice of law. I referred an aviation matter to an attorney down there once. Might still have his name.
 
delphipgmr said:
I started looking into that too, but what the law says, and what the FAA says are usually 2 different things...

here is what the florida statute says

985.35(6)

Except as the term “conviction” is used in chapter 322, and except for use in a subsequent proceeding under this chapter, an adjudication of delinquency by a court with respect to any child who has committed a delinquent act or violation of law shall not be deemed a conviction; nor shall the child be deemed to have been found guilty or to be a criminal by reason of that adjudication; nor shall that adjudication operate to impose upon the child any of the civil disabilities ordinarily imposed by or resulting from conviction or to disqualify or prejudice the child in any civil service application or appointment, with the exception of the use of records of proceedings under this chapter as provided in s. 985.045(4).
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That's Florida law. As regards aviation, Federal law preempts Florida law, so you need to know the Federal law on point, too.

i think he needs a consult with a lawyer,
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I know he does. Make sure this attorney knows both the Florida law on point as well as Federal aviation law and procedures.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's Florida law. As regards aviation, Federal law preempts Florida law, so you need to know the Federal law on point, too.

I know he does. Make sure this attorney knows both the Florida law on point as well as Federal aviation law and procedures.
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I don't think federal law preempts a state law on this area.

Preemption in one area of the vast expanse of aviation law does not mean preemption in another. I would think you'd have to look to state law to determine whether there was a felony conviction.
 
Henning said:
The real problem is he's not too bright, while this is a 'good thing' when it comes to an aviation career, it's not that great for a daughter's boyfriend.
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That was my initial thought.
 
Henning said:
Get it expunged, he'll be fine for both the medical and career.
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Unless, of course, he is traveling to a country like Canada, Australia, or some others (even the US does it to travelers seeking to enter the US) that require said traveler to fill out a landing card that asks If one has any convictions. That includes sealed or expunged convictions. Canada and the US are particularly tough on this according to a lot of folks that have run afoul.
 
wsuffa said:
Unless, of course, he is traveling to a country like Canada, Australia, or some others (even the US does it to travelers seeking to enter the US) that require said traveler to fill out a landing card that asks If one has any convictions. That includes sealed or expunged convictions. Canada and the US are particularly tough on this according to a lot of folks that have run afoul.
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He doesn't have a conviction, he was adjudicated delinquent. :D
 
You're on the right track. If the parents don't speak English, it's likely the kid was railroaded. Help him get it expunged. I'd advise him to keep it to himself after that. Once expunged, it's nobody's business.
 
0luke1 said:
You're on the right track. If the parents don't speak English, it's likely the kid was railroaded. Help him get it expunged. I'd advise him to keep it to himself after that. Once expunged, it's nobody's business.
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That's true for criminal procedures. It's not necessarily true for national security issues.
 
0luke1 said:
You're on the right track. If the parents don't speak English, it's likely the kid was railroaded. Help him get it expunged. I'd advise him to keep it to himself after that. Once expunged, it's nobody's business.
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It does not say, "is there any record of".
It says, "have you ever in your life....."

Parent may have had a leg down, but the kid reads English and has to sign.
GET A GOOD FL. LAWYER.
 
bbchien said:
It does not say, "is there any record of".
It says, "have you ever in your life....."

Parent may have had a leg down, but the kid reads English and has to sign.
GET A GOOD FL. LAWYER.
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...been Convicted... The answer by Florida statute for this kid is NO! Look up a few posts and see what Florida Law has to say about it, an adjudication of delinquency...shall NOT be deemed a conviction NOR shall the child be deemed to have been found guilty.

No Guilty finding on this kid and No Conviction, end of story; the law is black and white on this, nobody is bending or twisting it. Get the crap expunged and answer "no" in clear conscience. The kid was never convicted nor found guilty, period.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, it is Federal, not Florida law, which applies here. Answer "no" on a SF86 with something like in your record and your clearance is denied.
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Where was he Convicted by the Feds? He was never convicted, law is law, he was not under federal jurisdiction or anyone else's jurisdiction on this except the State of Florida, so it's the State of Florida that determines the answer to the question of conviction and they say NO.
 
Henning said:
Where was he Convicted by the Feds? He was never convicted, law is law, he was not under federal jurisdiction or anyone else's jurisdiction on this except the State of Florida, so it's the State of Florida that determines the answer to the question of conviction and they say NO.
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:sigh: Go ahead, Henning -- you offer that advice and then indemnify them for the consequences.
 
Ron Levy said:
:sigh: Go ahead, Henning -- you offer that advice and then indemnify them for the consequences.
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:sigh: You tell me how when the court that holds jurisdiction on the matter specifically says "This is NOT a conviction" through black letter law, how anyone will have the legal ability to say "This was a conviction."

The statute leaves absolutely nothing to interpretation on the matter, it reads specifically there was NO conviction.
 
I agree he should get a Florida lawyer to look into this. He can probably give the answer from the top of his head, with cases to back it up.

But I think Henning is right. The fact that the FAA is a federal agency doesn't mean they re trial everything again according to federal law. If the state said there was no conviction, then there was no conviction (and this is what they need the lawyer for, to confirm this, something found on the Internet is not solid enough for what is at stake).
If you have a speeding ticket for going 85 in a state where that is just a speeding ticket, you don't have to say you were convicted of reckless driving in a state where driving above 80 is automatic reckless driving.
If you get caught with pot in a state where it's decriminalized and you get a ticket, I don't think you have to say you were convicted of possession in a federal form. There was really no conviction, even if in some other state (or at the federal level) that is a misdemeanor.

Again, get a lawyer and check this out, it would probably be an hour of his time at most (and then you can come back an educate us all :wink2:).
 
Ron:
I suspect that he did not receive a felony conviction for something he did with a BB gun at age 15
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Slightly O/T, but to give you an idea of how backwards the gun laws are in NJ, they classify BB guns as de facto firearms. So it doesn't matter if oldboy was shooting cars with a BB gun or a .357 magnum. It also means that in order to purchase a BB pistol you would need to get a signoff from the chief of police, for each one purchased, as well as submit to a background investigation that can last up to 2 months, or indefinitely, depending on how the police department feels about people owning firearms.

If what I'm saying sounds ridiculous, it should. But the fact of the matter is that some states have laws that are stricter than many European countries when it comes to firearms, and it pays to be very, very careful.
 
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Henning said:
:sigh: You tell me how when the court that holds jurisdiction on the matter specifically says "This is NOT a conviction" through black letter law, how anyone will have the legal ability to say "This was a conviction."

The statute leaves absolutely nothing to interpretation on the matter, it reads specifically there was NO conviction.
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The only situation I could see would be if there were a federal law that defines "conviction", and that definition includes a finding of delinquency. Such a definition would preempt the state law to the contrary. Is there such a definition somewhere in the US Code? I have no clue whatsoever.

My guess, and it's worth much less than you're paying for it, is that there is no such definition, and as such, the Florida definition would be controlling.
 
Have him get a job with Obamacare. They hire felons and the pay is good. He'll be able to fly on the side.
 
bbchien said:
So far, I have not passed out from them, which would be grounding.....
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I though that it was only unexplained loss of consciousness, not getting your bell rung:wink2:

Edit:
OOPS! I see that I still haven't had an orginal thought today.
 
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