Federal Court Decision: Flight training is carrying passengers for hire

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by flyingron, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach

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    That’s the difference between living under the regulations and enforcing the regulations. There is zero point in having this discussion with the person enforcing the regulations. They are clueless.
     
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  2. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Know why elephants have such skinny tails? FAA streamlining.
     
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  3. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I'm going to channel Doc. H. and say "the FAA always does what's right and everything will be fine. You're overreacting." or maybe simply "what's the problem? There's a process, and it'll be streamlined."
     
  4. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    So I read this:
    faa letter 1.JPG

    So that tells me a follow up is coming behind this to clarify the decision. Should we wait to see that or just declare the sky is indeed falling?

    Also I read this:

    faa letter 2.JPG
    faa letter 3.JPG

    So it appears to me the FAA is not shutting down anything, but once again being forced to go back and clarify a position in the regulations.

    Furthermore, it was these groups that wanted clarification from the FAA on the experimental side, so they put the FAA is a position to formulate an answer, and as seen numerous times in the past, they don't like the answer they received. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

    But I also read where the FAA wants to make sure the flight training is being provided.

    Perhaps we should do a wait and see, and perhaps for those paying the various organizations for representation let them work it out and find a solution.

    YMMV, and all other disclaimers.
     
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  5. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    How about I channel Salty and say "No need to read the documents, it's all a huge conspiracy!" or maybe "Where's my tinfoil hat dammit!" ;)
     
  6. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Go back and reread the letter.

    No doubt. And as long as there will be regulations and laws, there will be those who try to circumvent them, making life harder on those who don't.

    But IMO this is far from over, and is not in concrete.
     
  7. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    You seem to have missed the point that the sky has already fallen. You only point out promises to lift it back up again. :rolleyes:
     
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  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Waiting for the official proclamation is obviously what’s necessary, but the response letter sounds a lot more like, “you’re right, and well have official documentation of the policy changes at some future date,” than “no, this only applies to those operations to which we have previously issued LODAs, and well clarify that at some future date.”

    Unfortunately this is nowhere indicated to the general flying public.
     
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  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    I don't see it as a big deal, but it does give many something to clutch their pearls over and fret about.
     
  10. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    There are folks who do this, I know people who have bought Vans and gotten instruction. I think the TW student should maybe beat the bushes a bit harder.
     
  11. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    In your world I'm sure it's fallen and the world is burning around you. I'm also pretty sure in your world those chem trails are doing evil things as well. :eek:o_O
     
  12. Marshall Alexander

    Marshall Alexander Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So, what about sport CFIs in the mean time, that aren't charging anything anyway? Yes, right now, I'm teaching a student for free.
     
  13. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Pretty much exactly what I guessed you'd say.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    And Doc H. says "People don't need to train in their own planes. They can just go find someone that already has a LODA. This is not a problem. Stop making a big deal out of nothing. Making it harder to get training doesn't make people less safe."
     
  15. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    You're usually the lead pearl clutcher.....;)
     
  16. TonyG

    TonyG Pre-Flight

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    I have.

    When you read the FAA stating that their own guidance to inspectors is inconsistent with their (new) interpretation of the regulations (see footnote 5), you gotta believe they've screwed up. Whether they've just tumbled to it now, or their new interpretation of instructing as carrying persons for hire bit them, it doesn't matter. They've now established a framework where avenues to instruction in a new-to-the-pilot aircraft type are impeded.
     
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  17. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    And you the lead apologist for even the most foolish action that makes safe flying harder to accomplish.
     
  18. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Again, we're looking at it differently. I think this will get clarified as the different organizations are involved and will lobby for an equitable solution. The FAA looks for "equivalency of safety" and if the AOPA and EAA and GAMA can offer a solution that shows just that, then I think they will have common ground.

    We'll see.
     
  19. TonyG

    TonyG Pre-Flight

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    Sure there are. And some even do this instruction consistent with the regulations.

    In the US, there are 13 people that actually hold letters of deviation authority (LODAs) for relevant airplanes (in my view, RVs that aren't RV10s or 12s). He's calling all of them.

    Prior to the June 4 letter, he could've received instruction in his own airplane. Now he has to find one of these 13, or get his own LODA, at least per this letter.
     
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  20. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Which is less safe?

    1. Taking a couple hundred people a year on a joy ride in a two seat P-40
    2. Making it impossible for owners to get training in 26,000 experimental aircraft without lengthy paperwork that most do not know how to get
     
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  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Which would be a relevant question if “safe or legal, pick one” was acceptable.
     
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  22. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    It’s a relevant question because the Faa decided the second one is preferred. But I agree they should have dealt with the legality issue of the first one rather than making the second illegal. It’ll relevant, because it made things overall less safe, not more safe than before this action.
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It’s still up to the pilot to be safe...the FAA may not be making it easy to be safe, but they are not demanding unsafe operation.
     
  24. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    So you don’t think making instruction more difficult to attain makes things less safe overall?

    Let’s back up here. Do you think it’s unsafe to train in an experimental without a LODA? That’s a reasonable position I suppose, but I want to clarify.
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    Kinda like FAA clutching pearls that the operation was unsafe without a piece of paper, but magically becomes safer with it? Ha.

    Let's be honest here, I'm fine with them shutting the thing down, but they never made a numbers based safety case that this particular joyride facility was any less safe that all the other joyride groups they've approved are.

    Even let a kid crash a bomber.

    But I'm suuuuuuure that little screwup had nothing to do with the sudden increase of scrutiny... Haha. Right.

    Of course if we all point it out too loudly they'll just stop all of it. Why not? It's all for the nuns and kids in the schoolbus...

    I can't decide if joyride groups are truly worth it or not, and neither can FAA... But in general if anyone climbs aboard something that old they know it doesn't come with an airframe parachute...

    Whatcha gonna do? Waffle a lot, probably.

    The real mistake here was in whoever wrote the initial reply not understanding that they widened the scope of types affected. Slapdash letter.

    They'll circle the wagons and get the wording right the second time.
     
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  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If making instruction more difficult to attain makes things less safe, pilots are allowing themselves to fly in a less-safe environment.
     
  27. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Moving goalposts.

    if We go down that train of thought, then you are saying flying experimental aircraft shouldn’t be allowed due to safety concerns. I can’t get training, so I shouldn’t fly.
     
  28. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    No, it always was, is now, and always will be the responsibility of the PIC to ensure that the flight is safe.
     
  29. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    It is and was, but the discussion is not about the PICs responsibility, the discussion is about the FAAs responsibility.
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    The FAA’s responsibility is not to make it “easy”.
     
  31. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Is it their responsibility to make it harder as they did here?
     
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  32. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    The trouble in this case did not come from Warbird Adventures. They clearly had a limited category airplane and they clearly did not have a LODA to give flight training it. They persisted in selling rides in it, which clearly is "for compensation". There's no room to imagine that they were in the right.

    The problem is the judge's overly broad language which defines flight instruction as carriage for compensation. That triggers all kinds of things in the FARs, well beyond 91.315. For example, does a CFI need a Part 135 certification now to carry a passenger for compensation? By one reading of the judge's order, yes.

    The FAA is working on a statement. That statement might come in a week, it might come in a year. Either way, I'd just keep on doing what we've been doing, other than the "selling a warbird experience in a limited category airplane" thing.
     
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  33. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Their responsibility is to encourage safety. When compliance becomes harder, fewer people will comply and they are not equipped to catch everyone.
     
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  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    No, but if this continues to be the cluster**** that it looks like, it’s still the pilot’s responsibility to ensure safet flight.
     
  35. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Either it stays that way, which is the only indication the general public has; or cooler heads may prevail as Doc thinks will happen. Either way, compliance isn’t optional, it’s required.

    Adding irrelevant information to the argument is exactly what the court did, and adding more isn’t going to fix it.
     
  36. DaleB

    DaleB Final Approach

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    And wouldn't it also prohibit a regular CFI who doesn't hold a current second class medical from giving paid instruction?
     
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  37. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    If everyone is required to comply with what the court said, then all training will be done in 135/125 organizations. GA will be dead. Personally, I can see that elimination of an activity gives you a perfect safety record, but I don't think "no operations" achieves the goal of "safe operations".

    As I said, just keep doing what we've been doing. The court's decision is unpublished, which means it not setting precedent. I expect the FAA will clarify it all. Probably before Oshkosh so they don't have 1,000 pilots dropping by to ask the same question.
     
  38. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    True, if you assume normally-certificate airplanes are already a thing of the past.
     
  39. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    I don't care how we arrived at this point. The real point is tens of thousands of pilots and owners of experimental and limited category aircraft now can't get training in their aircraft without a LODA.

    Everything beyond that is speculation.
     
  40. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    I think what I said was true whether or not I assume certificated airplanes are done...I don't. However requiring us to have professional level training will make it so.