Fear of fall and stall training

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by WannFly, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    My CFI survived today. I will never understand why someone in their sane mind would take such life risk (AKA - teach me how to fly) for such small amount. I won't!

    If you are too lazy to read this mile long post, here is a shorter version - I did my stall training and I did ok. For everyone else, read on.

    Alright guys… here is my experience with Stall training today. you guys already know, I have a thing for falling from great heights, that’s the primary reason a 30 degree bank turn would drive me nuts. I do them every time I go up, I am pretty comfortable with 25 degrees now and every now and then I touch 30 when I am looking outside and not paying attention to the actual degree of bank. Then I get my eyes inside and I am like .. O crap I am at 30 degree, I better come back to 25 .. I know ridiculous. But it’s a real thing for me and I am pushing the boundaries every day.
    Other than banking last few lessons I had some other trouble too…

    Usually on take-off my CFI tells me, put full throttle in 3 seconds… it takes me 12 seconds and more than 1/2 mile ground roll to take off

    While climbing from 3k to say 4k, when I hear the instruction go full throttle I pretty much disregard it and take my own sweet time and eventually go up t0 80% and stop there - as if I go full throttle the prop is going rip off. Ridiculous - but again a real thing for me.

    Today, I knew I will be doing stall training, mainly power-off and watched enough youtube videos to understand that when the power is off and you enter a full stall, you better push that damn throttle all the way in as soon as you can to save you a$$. So after much thinking about stopping at walmart and buying a diaper, I took the advice from senior members here and didn’t get one and drove to the airport.

    Big smile from my CFI, he declares - "we are going to go up and do power-Off and Power-On stalls today"
    Me: (in my head) WTF dude, the syllabus you gave me said Power-off today and if you are not going to stick to it, why print that damn thing? Damn all of you POA guys who advised against diaper purchase…
    Me (out loud) - "sure"
    CFI - don’t worry we won't do full stalls, we will let you recover when you hear the stall horn
    Me: (in my head) this dude knows I am not wearing a diaper today.
    Me:(out loud) Sure.
    Did my pre-flight, taxi, got clearance for take off…rolled on to the runway
    Me(in my head): if I take 12 seconds to push the throttle in, I am surely going to die today while doing power-off stalls. + didn't get the diaper

    Jammed the throttle in under 3 seconds and took off. Patted myself on my back for achieving the impossible while the CFI said, some right rudder would mean a lot on climb out :)

    We some usual climbing, turns (still getting used to 30 degree bank, but quite comfortable with 25 degrees), mostly keeping turns coordinated and trying to look outside whenever I can. Still looking out 1/3 of the time and at the G1000 2/3 or the time, gotto reverse that, but it was like 10% outside and 90% outside before - so definitely some progress.

    CFI took over control and set up for Power-Off stall
    Me (in my head): and that’s how I die + didn't get the diaper

    CFI: ok so we are at full flaps, I will let the air speed bleed and raise the nose to 12 degrees and hold there. There is the stall horn, there is the stall louder stall horn, there is even louder stall horn.. The is the drop and full throttle, keep the nose in the horizon, reduce flaps.. Climb out.
    Me (in my head): WTF happened to just hearing the stall horn and recovering? where is my diaper?
    Me (out loud): that wasn’t so bad. I imagined much worst in my head.

    And that is true, I don’t really know what I imagined, but I guess imagined the experience to be much worst, I imagined I would be terrified and speechless and would need a diaper. In all actuality, it wasn’t that bad. I have been in worst roller coasters before. This was pretty manageable. It was a full stall, the nose dropped abruptly - but it wasn’t that bad and for sure I wasn’t scared. Which I kinda odd because my fear of fall always kicks in at 30 degree bank, when the nose actually dropped, the power was idle, air separated from the wing which means I am not actually flying that very moment, the fear of fall did not kick in. yes, I am weird.

    Next my turn to do it and he said if you are uncomfortable, we will just hear the horn and recover.
    Me (out loud): let's do this.
    We were at 4500, took over control and before I could do anything ATC calls telling us a plane on our 2 o clock same alt, 3 miles out. CFI takes over.
    Me (in my head): ok so here is how we die today. I should have bought those diapers (note plural now)
    He did an emergency decent to 3500, it turned out another student was roaming around the practice area without notification. We had already made our clearing turns before and he wasn’t supposed to be there. So there is that.
    Took over control, added 10% flaps, decent to 3000, added full flaps,
    CFI : bring the power to idle
    Me (out loud): e…e… are you sure?
    Me (in my head): you should know I didn't buy the diapers.
    CFI (with a chuckle): yes I am sure.
    Power to idle it is and then pulled the yoke back till I heard the stall horn
    CFI: hold it a little more till u hear a louder horn
    Me (in my head): blank. No thoughts what so ever.
    Me (out loud): sure
    Heard the louder horn.
    CFI : recover.
    I dropped the nose, jammed the throttle in under a second I think and recovered.
    Climbed and now for the full stall. Went as planned, the only difference is, when the nose actually dropped in full stall…
    I said: oh ****, put the full throttle in under 1/8th of a second (I had no idea how fast my hand could travel from the yoke to the throttle) and pulled the yoke to bring the nose up. After recovery CFI told me not to do that because it could easily get into secondary stall. Guess more practice in order on that. But the funny thing is, I am not scared of falling out of the sky anymore!! Guess now I am ready for an engine out training as well since I did bring the power to idle.
    Next, power on stall. CFI demoed the power-on stall. I am not very comfortable around this time. (diaper, where are you when I need you?) Guessing looking at nothing but all blue sky and losing the horizon got me. We did the full stall, had a wing drop to the right and saw he recovered with Aileron. This is interesting because everything I have read and watched tells me we use rudder on a wing drop (am I wrong?). Asked CFI, so do u use rudder for wing drop or Aileron? He said Aileron is fine.
    I am little confused now, since if the air has separated from the wing and I am stalled I should have pretty less aileron authority, so…. Well may be it was not a wing drop, I have no idea. Something to clarify and try out next time to have a better understanding.

    He also demo-ed some turning stalls - didn’t like the power-on turning stall at all.
    In my turn, I did the recovery by dropping the nose when the stall horn got intense - didn’t go to full stall. That’s for the next day.

    And I understand correctly, in ACS I need to recover the moment I head the stall horn. I plan to practice full stalls for saving my a$$ though.

    While coming back did some low flying, 500 AGL and learned another valuable lesson… G1000 didn’t have at least 2 telephone towers in its database. Gotto keep eyes out for those… followed a road back to the airport. Felt AWESOME!!

    Overall guys, I thought this would a terrible horrifying experience and I would probably give up flying after that. Turned out to be exactly opposite. I want to go up tomorrow again, too bad CFI takes Sunday off (not acceptable, I am enjoying every minute I fly, hence no off days for you). Cant wait for Wednesday and next training class.

    Now I have a new problem and I don’t know how to solve it. I want to fly every day!!! What do I do???
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Fly every day! So you conquered some of your fear. That's great. Keep at it but remember you'll have to get confident enough to practice all this on your own after you solo. and will have to demonstrate it on your check ride. So keep at it with your CFI, practice practice practice.
     
  3. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I wish I
    could... those guys who signs my paycheck expects me to show up everyday too. I know, brutal. and sun sets at 5, brutal too.... I will keep flying whenever I can. as of now I am flying twice a week weather permitting and that has made a big difference . cant wait for this damn winter to get over so I can go fly after work
     
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  4. SToL

    SToL Pre-Flight

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    You are not wrong! You might want to have a very in depth discussion about this with your instructor, or even better several instructors.

    Keep in mind, most instructors are pretty inexperienced pilots who are just trying to build time to get that first flying job. It's not unusual to get bad, or wrong advice. If in doubt, always as for more clarification and you can always talk to other instructors too.

    PJ
     
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  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, rudder, especially on a power on stall. Talk to your CFI, maybe you misunderstood him.
     
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  6. abqtj

    abqtj Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Great work!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  7. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I am hoping I misunderstood him, may be he used the rudder and then when in coordinated flight used some aileron action to level out. He is very experienced, doing this for 30 years and couldn't care less about building hrs

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  8. evapilotaz

    evapilotaz Pattern Altitude

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    Sorry my ADHD wouldnt allow me to read your long post
     
  9. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    :D:D
     
  10. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    Are you saying that you do not hold the plane in place with your brakes until full throttle, and then release the brakes to begin your ground roll? If you are not doing that, you are increasing your ground roll. The POH calculations are based on you holding the plane in place until full throttle and then releasing. You need to start doing this as standard operating procedure. Most of the time it won't matter. That will reinforce your belief that it's not a problem. But some day when you are a little heavy, it's a little hot, it's a little humid, and the runway is a little short it might. I have a case where there was an accident and a lot of poor take-off techniques, including not holding the aircraft in place on throttle up, combined together to result in an accident that was entirely avoidable.
     
  11. hotprops

    hotprops Line Up and Wait

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    what is all this stall training ,that can come later just go flying for now plenty of time to get to that and sooo much to be learned by just flying .my pm to you at your request outlines what i think of your instructor.
     
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  12. SToL

    SToL Pre-Flight

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    I disagree. This is not a 'standard' operating procedure and in most cases there is very little advantage to doing this and the disadvantage is the extra wear and tear on equipment. Any thing over approximately 700 RPM in a prop aircraft can begin to pick up FOD into the propeller. When operating on any runway that might have any FOD, you would never want to do this procedure. Keep in mind that FOD can be something as simple as a small pebble or gravel. How many runways do you know of that have none?

    That said, yes it can help if you have an extremely short runway and you happen to be heavy and it's humid and it's the weekend of a full moon and one of your passengers has two heads... but 99% of the time it is just not necessary. Yes I know some guys do it, but the fact is it's rarely necessary and only gains them a few feet.

    With several thousand hours flying hot and heavy out of short (600 ft) dirt strips on rivers bars and never used that technique other than maybe one time in my student pilot training.

    And then there's turbine aircraft. Try that in some of those and the plane will literally go skidding and sliding down the runway. In those aircraft you would only bring the throttle up to N1 only to check that all is in the green, then release brakes and apply take off power.

    PJ
     
  13. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    No different than your run up. And you are only there for 3 seconds. Hold the brakes until you let go, and there isn't much wear.

    Admittedly, I haven't done the testing or the math myself. I am relying on the retired Air Force Lt. Col former academy instructor and test pilot I retained to consult with on the accident for the basis of my statement. Again, most times it won't matter until the time it does. It's that thinking which directly led to the accident I mentioned above. Cutting too many corners in a really capable plane, and then there was no safety factor there when it was needed. Entirely unavoidable. I used to think like you do about this issue, too. Now I see otherwise.
     
  14. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    At a busy airport, stopping on the runway when it isn't necessary is rather rude. And your technique may have some unpleasant ramifications on a soft field.

    You should do that on a really short field, unless it's also soft. But for that to matter, short means less than 1500 feet at sea level on a standard day in a full 172, with no wind. Unless you fly backcountry, you're not likely to encounter one that's that short.

    If you're in a zone where the POH TOD matters, then the technique is usually called for. If not, you're spending extra time on the runway and wearing parts for nothing.
     
  15. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    I'm not saying to stop for an eternity. Also, you assume that it takes more time to get out of the way. The point is that the ground roll is shorter.
     
  16. SToL

    SToL Pre-Flight

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    I'd be willing to bet that in your accident case study, there were several factors involved and yeah, *maybe* using that technique *might* have changed the outcome, but more likely than not, the outcome would have been different if you had eliminated any of the other factors. It's easy to look back and say, yeah if he'd have just done this.... when the facts say there were actually several things he should have done. This technique is not a panacea for poor piloting techniques or poor decision making.

    As for my run up, if i'm on dirt or a poorly maintained runway, I never stop to preform the run up. It's done either on the taxi or take off roll, depending on conditions.

    Do the math, yes you'll gain a little, but very little. Here's an excerpt from AvWeb's John Deakin. http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182089-1.html

    Tests have shown there is very little difference between stopping, then going to full power with brake release, or rolling onto the runway at a normal taxi speed, and turning onto the takeoff heading while going to full power. If anything, the latter will produce slightly better performance, and will certainly save your prop from dings and nicks from the gravel and dirt that often goes with the short runway.

    My only argument here is that it is rarely necessary and even then, there is a better alternative. You simply don't gain that much and you risk doing a lot of damage to your prop.

    PJ
     
  17. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    You betcha!

    The problem was he made too many mistakes that combined to leave no outs when the SHTF.
     
  18. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I don't and I was never told to do that. Last take off I did, it didn't take much ground roll as I jammed the throttle in, but I see your point. I though the hold brakes until full throttle is only applicable for smaller runways / soft field take off? Still early in my training days, but I was never told to hold brakes, in fact I was always told to keep heel on the floor so that don't accidentally hit the brakes while trying put in right rudder

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  19. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    feel free to PM.
     
  20. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not in time. It takes slightly more time to accelerate from a dead stop, not less, and even a few seconds extra is an "eternity" with traffic on final.
     
  21. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Alright got the burning question clarified, about the use of eilerons while power on stall. He was a power on turning stall, the wind didn't drop to the right, he was banked to the right and corrected with aileron when we leveled. Things were blurry in my head...

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  22. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Stalls have a way of doing that. Don't sweat it, you'll get it all resolved. Most, if not all, of us have been there.
     
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  23. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Thanks. . On a different note....my CFI sneaked in my first landing today... I was waiting for FIM to take over at 200 AGL... I knew something was wrong when he didn't take the controls over.... loved it

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  24. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Highly recommend spin training, it will really help cement stall recovery into your mind.

    Recovering any type of stall/spin by use of aileron is incorrect and only exacerbates the issue. I'd say that was simply miscommunication between you and your CFI.
     
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  25. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Yepp it was, I was overloaded after the first power on turning stall. I checked with them, but none of their aircrafts are certified for spin. There is a school 3 hrs away, plan to go there and do some spin training after I solo

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  26. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Good deal. It's great training and will sharpen and refine your skills. Have fun!!
     
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