FBOs holding airplanes hostage

[tonycondon]

So I took Leah up to Waterloo yesterday so we could go see a play that my sister was involved in. The FBO there closes at 930 and apparently is the only way to get access to the ramp. They told me that since the gate uses swipe cards now the only way to get in was to pay 40 dollar call back fee to get a lineboy to come out and do it. Ridiculous!!!!! Has anyone else ran into this issue? They even have stinking barb wire on the tops of the fences which makes them kind of tricky to climb.

 

[Henning]

So I took Leah up to Waterloo yesterday so we could go see a play that my sister was involved in. The FBO there closes at 930 and apparently is the only way to get access to the ramp. They told me that since the gate uses swipe cards now the only way to get in was to pay 40 dollar call back fee to get a lineboy to come out and do it. Ridiculous!!!!! Has anyone else ran into this issue? They even have stinking barb wire on the tops of the fences which makes them kind of tricky to climb.

Yeah, you learn how to clear barbed wire. There were some places like this before 9/11. Usually if you walk the perimeter fence, you'll find a way in.

 

[tonycondon]

yea we figured out a way in, i just think its ridiculous that the private FBO can essentially block all legitimate access to the ramp for a fee.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Ridiculous!!!!! Has anyone else ran into this issue? They even have stinking barb wire on the tops of the fences which makes them kind of tricky to climb.

We have had the barbed wire topped fence for sometime now here at Boeing Field . We think it's working well because there are no shreds of the terrorists' turbin wraps stuck on it.

 

[tonycondon]

lol dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The whole deal stinks but I would be careful about circumventing security, think video cameras, and consequences. Too bad they can't issue access cards to pilots.

 

[bkreager]

We used to have pretty loose security here, until the TSA visited us. Now we have a new barb wire fence and we're getting swipe cards for the gates. The story that I heard is if things didn't improve, the inspector would make an unannounced visit, and if he could get access to planes there would be some fines handed out. It's stupid that they would charge you a call-out fee just to open the gate though. We still don't lock everything that tight, so people coming in/departing after hours can get through.

 

[CJones]

I landed at Kennet, Missouri last weekend enroute to-and-from Alabama. They have a pretty unique system set up there for access to the FBO building. There is a phone right outside the FBO door. When you pick it up, it connects directly to the local police station. You tell them who you are and that you would like the FBO door unlocked. They can 'buzz' the door unlocked from their office. Completely locked-down to open in a matter of couple of minutes.

At Muscle Shoals, Alabama, the have a number pad on the ramp access gate that is opened by typing in the AWOS or CTAF (can't remember which) freq.

You would think that Waterloo (a semi-busy GA airport) would be able to provide after hours access to the ramp with some form of security still being maintained.

Yet another reason why I dislike ALO as a whole.

-Chris

 

[bbchien]

Sheridan Wyoming has the same problem.

 

[Michael]

Bullhead City, AZ that way too. And they wont give you a card unless you buy a hangar there. I refuse to go there.

 

[mikea]

We used to have pretty loose security here, until the TSA visited us. Now we have a new barb wire fence and we're getting swipe cards for the gates. The story that I heard is if things didn't improve, the inspector would make an unannounced visit, and if he could get access to planes there would be some fines handed out. ...

They'll have plenty to write up if/when they visit my home base. There's not even a fence. There are some scary signs telling you to stay out - like the stop sign on the road leading from the parking lot to the planes.

 

[markb5900]

saw one place that had a "code" entry system. On the way out on the gate it told you what number to punch in to get back onto the ramp. Seemed like a pretty good idea other than key cards.
Yes not the MOST secure, but better than nothing I suppose. The $40.00 fee just to get your plane at a PUBLIC airport is STUPID!.

Mark B

 

[Stache]

There are different kinds of airports private who can do what they want and regulated or funded airports by tax dollars. Funded airports have to follow strict security rules by the FAA to stay open even it they don’t have a tower. Following the rules keeps Federal Tax dollars coming in, if they don't follow the rules heavey fines are imposed.

Title 49 TSA Part 1500 through 1550 cover most of security fences stuff. Airports are required to write a security plan then follow it. If the plan says to lock up the place at 9:30PM they have to follow it. But they should notify pilots about their procedures so you don’t get stuck for shook down for money.

Stache

 

[bstratt]

When you arrive they know you are a legitimate pilot - why can't they issue you a "one time" swipe card and have a box inside the gate area for you to drop it in on your way out?

 

[gprellwitz]

When you arrive they know you are a legitimate pilot - why can't they issue you a "one time" swipe card and have a box inside the gate area for you to drop it in on your way out?

Because then they couldn't collect their $40! (Well, they couldn't justify it as well. They'd have to call it a "processing fee".)

There is a phone right outside the FBO door. When you pick it up, it connects directly to the local police station. You tell them who you are and that you would like the FBO door unlocked. They can 'buzz' the door unlocked from their office. Completely locked-down to open in a matter of couple of minutes

I like that idea. It would make lot more sense at my home airport if we actually had a fence around it!

We are looking at putting up IP cameras on the airport that are viewable by anyone. A lot of people (non-pilots) call the airport manager, asking whether there are planes flying, because we have an airport restaurant that overlooks the runway. THis way, they can tell from home. It also offers additional security, and could be used in conjunction with this sort of a phone system should a fence ever be added in the future.

 

[tonycondon]

When you arrive they know you are a legitimate pilot - why can't they issue you a "one time" swipe card and have a box inside the gate area for you to drop it in on your way out?

thats kinda what i was thinking barry. or why the heck cant the gate access be a punch code that they could give me!?

The $40.00 fee just to get your plane at a PUBLIC airport is STUPID!

my feelings exactly

You would think that Waterloo (a semi-busy GA airport) would be able to provide after hours access to the ramp with some form of security still being maintained.

Yet another reason why I dislike ALO as a whole

thats the way im starting to feel to Chris

 

[Richard]

I've been thinking of which tools to add to my carry on tool box. Sounds like I should add small bolt cutters. Just snip the top and bottom of a single strand in the chain link. "Unspiral" the snipped link by lifting up and twisting. You've just made a hole.

 

[tonycondon]

Do you know if/where there is anyway us mere mortals can get ahold of copies of the airport "security" plans?

There are different kinds of airports private who can do what they want and regulated or funded airports by tax dollars. Funded airports have to follow strict security rules by the FAA to stay open even it they don’t have a tower. Following the rules keeps Federal Tax dollars coming in, if they don't follow the rules heavey fines are imposed.

Title 49 TSA Part 1500 through 1550 cover most of security fences stuff. Airports are required to write a security plan then follow it. If the plan says to lock up the place at 9:30PM they have to follow it. But they should notify pilots about their procedures so you don’t get stuck for shook down for money.

Stache

 

[Tom-D]

WE have commercial service by Kenmore Air, but we don't have any fence, gate, or any restrictions to the ramp or parking lot.

You can park your aircraft n the north side of the runway at the 07 end, and walk across the runway to the parking lot. or you can have your ride drive to the north side and pick you up.

Oh I forgot, the only fence is to keep the neighbors cows off the runway.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We are looking at putting up IP cameras on the airport that are viewable by anyone. A lot of people (non-pilots) call the airport manager, asking whether there are planes flying, because we have an airport restaurant that overlooks the runway. THis way, they can tell from home.

But if they can watch the planes from home, why come to the restaurant? Also, if there's a guy in the pattern, he's probably off-camera at least 3/4 of the time... Maybe add a CTAF sound feed?

 

[tonycondon]

Consider yourself lucky Tom. There are a couple (MCW and ALO come to mind) airports in Iowa that really think they are big stuff because they get a couple of regional flights in a day. I think Mason City handles maybe 4 at the max Saab 340s a day. Waterloo does 4 Saabs and a CRJ every day. Apparently this creates enough of a security concern that I no longer should have access to my airplane.

 

[gprellwitz]

But if they can watch the planes from home, why come to the restaurant? Also, if there's a guy in the pattern, he's probably off-camera at least 3/4 of the time... Maybe add a CTAF sound feed?

(emphasis mine) I do think you've answered your own question here! A better one would be, will pilots be willing to land here if their landings will be broadcast? Imagine, an Internet voting site on the quality of your landings!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Consider yourself lucky Tom. There are a couple (MCW and ALO come to mind) airports in Iowa that really think they are big stuff because they get a couple of regional flights in a day. I think Mason City handles maybe 4 at the max Saab 340s a day. Waterloo does 4 Saabs and a CRJ every day. Apparently this creates enough of a security concern that I no longer should have access to my airplane.

Tony,

I don't think it's so much a matter of airports "thinking they're big stuff". An airport that serves scheduled air carriers with more than 9 (ie 10 or more) passenger seats are subject to Part 139. Kenmore Air's largest land plane is the Caravan, with 9 pax seats, so Whidbey Island is not subject to Part 139. Anything that's got even a single scheduled Saab 340 flight is subject to Part 139.

Specifically, read 139.325(i), (a), and (b) and 139.335(b).

I don't even know what chapter the TSA regs are in, so I don't know where to start looking for those.

I fly from KMSN which has lots of airline flights (Waterski ATR's, Mesaba Saab 340's, SkyEx Beech 1900's and DO-328 jets, RJ's from Eagle (American), Air Wisconsin (United), Contintental, and Delta; and Northwest DC-9's and A319's).

We'd be pretty much in the same boat except for one fact: We have a boatload of GA traffic as well, from Cubs to Gulfstreams to the occasional chartered 757, so Wisconsin Aviation is open 24/7. The GA terminal ("east ramp") is always open. They do lock the secondary GA terminal and hangars ("south ramp") after 9 PM but will send someone down to let you in and pull your plane out. There's also security training for based pilots that gives you the privilege of having your own key to the south ramp.

Without that level of traffic and that level of service from the FBO, well... It sure would be nice if they could do something, but I'm not sure if TSA regs permit them to have a gate code or give out temporary cards under their 139-required security plan.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

(emphasis mine) I do think you've answered your own question here!

My point was that someone might take a glance at the camera and think nobody's there and stay home.

Maybe set up one of those X10 motion-detector cameras and time-stamp the last movement on the field?

 

[tonycondon]

well kent, i got no issues with them having security plans and all that crap, in fact its a great thing. but when im in mason city freaking iowa and have to be escorted to/from my plane and cant walk past some stupid line drawn on the concrete it is getting a little out of hand. Or the above situation when i am locked out of the airport after the tower and FBO have closed. Or I cant walk across the ramp to my airplane in Dubuque because they get a couple american eagle flights a day. It just sure seems like these security measures are designed only for the local pilots which sure doesnt help out the transients.

And how the heck do you promote aviation when the first thing a prospective student sees when he comes to the airport is big red signs with DANGER and WARNING written all over them, and the whole thing is surrounded by barbed wire fencing. Looks like a damn prison. Apparently its only a night prison for transient airplanes though.

 

[TMetzinger]

Lancaster KLRP is a Part 139 airport. They have the SIDA clearly painted on the ramp, and fencing all around. When you park on the GA portion of the ramp you can either walk around the SIDA (just big enough to park the 1900s and other commuter airplanes) into the terminal, and there is a note telling you the code for the cipher lock on the door so you can get back out. Or you can go through a gate in the fence, where (again) there is a note telling you the code to get back in.

There are no requirements (except for airports in the FRZ and Massport airports) codified in law that require airports to physically secure their airplanes. In fact, certain public safety regs practically demand that there be unlocked access to the airfield in case of an emergency. All the super secure airports have fire/rescue on field, so they can get away with completely securing the perimeter.

 

[JRitt]

We have a manned 24hr fire department just inside the gate. If you pull up after hrs and give the horn a quick "toot" they will come out and let you in. I love living in the trusting country.

 

[AdamZ]

Tony that is Moronic. They must not appreciate transient aircraft.

 

[Henning]

thats kinda what i was thinking barry. or why the heck cant the gate access be a punch code that they could give me!?

Once upon a time, the whole country was 532.

Perhaps they may make a nationwide swipe system using your license as the swipe card. You can even have different levels of encoding on the card for various levels of security access.

 

[gprellwitz]

My point was that someone might take a glance at the camera and think nobody's there and stay home.

Maybe set up one of those X10 motion-detector cameras and time-stamp the last movement on the field?

That's not a bad idea! Generally, I think that the ramp is going to show movement/change when the airport's active. Certainly not every minute, but over a 15 or 30 minute span.

 

[mikea]

Once upon a time, the whole country was 532.

Perhaps they may make a nationwide swipe system using your license as the swipe card. You can even have different levels of encoding on the card for various levels of security access.

They'll use the RFID tag implanted in your arm.

I have dibs on number 666.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

well kent, i got no issues with them having security plans and all that crap, in fact its a great thing. but when im in mason city freaking iowa and have to be escorted to/from my plane and cant walk past some stupid line drawn on the concrete it is getting a little out of hand.

Uh, yeah. That reminds me more of MKE, where you can't go on the ramp without a "security pass" which is printed on a receipt printer! In fact, the same printer that the receipt for the $46 in fees was printed on. Not kidding. Wish I was.

Or the above situation when i am locked out of the airport after the tower and FBO have closed.

See, if Wisconsin Aviation wasn't open 24/7, I'd be in the same situation here. And that would suck.

Reminds me of Meigs, where they closed the field fairly early at night - 9 PM maybe? I'd always wanted to land there and catch the Chicago Symphony and then leave again, but it closed too early to really take advantage of that.

 

[acrodisiac]

Think that is bad? I was not allowed OUT of an airport after a late night landing in Crescent City Ca. This was BEFORE 9/11 !
Quite funny actually. The only person there was some nut bar who was only there to recieve a small scheduled flight , after that it is lockdown time.
I arrived way before the scheduled flight so I wasn't the flight he was expecting and wouldn't let us out! He actually locked the door from the ramp to the terminal so we were stuck outside on the tarmac! Great security concept.
It took several phone calls from my cell and over an hour plus the arrival of his supervisor to get the OK to leave. I could hear the chewing out he got over the leaking exhaust of the cab as we departed.

 

[tonycondon]

wow

the last time i was at waterloo late at night i had the same type of issue. this was about a year and a half ago, they must not have had the same gate as they have now or something, because we didnt use it. managed to find a door in the fence somewhere (that is no longer there) so my sister could get out to her car.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

the last time i was at waterloo late at night i had the same type of issue. this was about a year and a half ago, they must not have had the same gate as they have now or something, because we didnt use it. managed to find a door in the fence somewhere (that is no longer there) so my sister could get out to her car.

Heh... I landed at UES late one night to drop a friend off who I'd picked up there earlier in the day. FBO was closed, and in the dark we couldn't find the pedestrian gate they'd told us about. All we could find was the automated vehicle exit gate.

So, armed with some knowledge of how those sensors work, I grabbed a metal stepladder from a fuel truck and held it parallel and close to the ground as I ran it over the sensor. Gate opened, problem solved.

 

[gismo]

I had my plane parked at MDW last weekend and while the FBO was open 24/7, they didn't require any escorts to/from the plane parked a few hundred feet away from the FBO office. And there are probably more potential terrorists in the city of Chicago than in all of Iowa.

 

[Everskyward]

the last time i was at waterloo late at night i had the same type of issue. this was about a year and a half ago, they must not have had the same gate as they have now or something, because we didnt use it. managed to find a door in the fence somewhere (that is no longer there) so my sister could get out to her car.

Taxi your plane up to the car gate. The sensors will open the gate just like they will for a car.

No I have not done this. It's just a wild idea for a Monday afternoon...

 

[gismo]

Taxi your plane up to the car gate. The sensors will open the gate just like they will for a car.

No I have not done this. It's just a wild idea for a Monday afternoon...

That's assuming the gate has a loop sensor buried in the tarmac in the first place and isn't activated by a person inside the FBO. And even if there is a loop, chances are your plane won't be sensed. They work by sensing the change in inductance that occurs when a large conductor or piece of iron comes near the loop. Most airplanes are too far from the ground for the fuselage to have any effect, and the landing gear itself is probably too small. I've never tried this either (just speculating), but these same loops have trouble sensing motorcycles and never see something like a bicycle. The ladder (aluminum?) trick has a better chance because it can get much closer to the loop.

 

[jesse]

I've never tried this either (just speculating), but these same loops have trouble sensing motorcycles and never see something like a bicycle. The ladder (aluminum?) trick has a better chance because it can get much closer to the loop.

I've never had a problem with my motorcycle.. I suspect with some of the new all plastic high tech four pound bikes though it could be an issue.

Left turn lane though.. That's a whole nother story.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Once upon a time, the whole country was 532.

Your memory may be a bit off, or mine might be, but the humor behind why the codes was what is was is great. FWIW, I remember the code as being "2" + "4" (pushed simultaneously) then "3".

One day I was visiting my B&B owner/buddy who had just installed the same make/model key code lock system on his B&B door for guests. The code was "2" + "4" then "3". When I asked how he came to pick that exact code he told me, "That's how it came from the factory."

No, I don't make this stuff up. The FAA would install the locks on airport perimeter fences without changing the factory code.