Fatal yacht Crash
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Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
My assumption is a collision with a large commercial vessel. Most participate in AMVERS (Automated Mutual assistance Vessel Rescue System ), so their courses and schedules can be back traced to see who was in the vicinity at the projected time of the incident.
I don't know the sea state at the time but it would be easy for a small craft to get lost in the sea return on the radar scope on the bridge of a larger vessel. Sadly, human lookouts on merchant vessels are a thing of the past for the most part.
Speaking from personal experience, there is nothing more disheartening than closing out a case with these kinds of results.
I don't know the sea state at the time but it would be easy for a small craft to get lost in the sea return on the radar scope on the bridge of a larger vessel. Sadly, human lookouts on merchant vessels are a thing of the past for the most part.
Speaking from personal experience, there is nothing more disheartening than closing out a case with these kinds of results.
steingar
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The masts on those boats are tall enough to not get lost in the swells, which I doubt were that big that time of year.
Threefingeredjack
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Indeed, but you assume a bored watch stander on the bridge of a merchie is constantly watching the radar. Most have contact alarms whose alert threshold is adjustable.
If the range was slewed out 25 or 30 miles a small contact would be easily missed. The Mark 1 eyeball is the preferred tool for small contacts, but depending on the vessel human lookouts may not be on duty.
The sail boat almost certainly had corner reflectors on it to make it stand out very brightly on radar as well.
Me too, I used to sail it on Diosa Del Mar and Ranger in the mid to lat 80s, we always had charters for that.
gprellwitz
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Here's an updated story, in which they name some of the decedents. Unfortunately this hits close to home for the PoA community, because some of them are close colleagues of Bill Suffa.
I would suspect that the ship had a few hundred nightmare targets on the radar between he and and his port in SD or LA and the guys on the boat were drunk or sleeping (often both on that race). It was quite likely dark at that point in the race.
AdamZ
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As Grant said one of the sailors that perished was a friend and colleague of Bill Suffa.
steingar
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Didn't know anyone to drink during the race, especially if they were competitive. Afterwards, you bet. Was very hard to see much of anything at night though.
Thing is, winds in that part of the world are really light. I doubt the yacht could have done anything to get out of the way of a powered vehicle. They might have had a diesel on board, but I don't know how long it takes to get one of those things going once you know you're in danger.
10% of the fleet is competitive, the rest is people going along for the sail and the party. Even if not, with a 3 man crew on that race they probably didn't have a proper watch schedule and everybody ended up asleep or down below eating or fixing something and just let the autopilot run it. I watch it all the time, it's not unusual to see no-one at the helm or even on deck anymore. Everybody has an autopilot now so watch standing standards have really fallen from the days when you had to steer.
steingar
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Good point, things are no doubt different today. But what they could have done in little wind with a ship bearing down on them is somewhat opaque to me.
Cap'n Jack
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For a race like that? Pretty much everyone tries to be competitive. I used to do Block Island Race Week- everyone gave their best shot on the water.
That race is less than 200 statute miles- no reason for everyone to be asleep. Possibly they had one person on deck steering and they didn't see whatever hit them under the sails, depending on their course and wind and closing direction. Especially close-hauled, there's a big blind spotehind the sails.
nddons
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I can fly in IMC at night without a problem. But being on the ocean, especially at night, scares the crap out of me. Am I alone in this fear?
I once took a Russian hydrofoil from Spain to Tangier across the Straits of Gibraulter. On the way back, we were in dense fog, and moving at a crawl. I could hear ship horns all over the place, and felt like any moment a freighter would come out of the fog right at us as if we were the PT- 109.
I once took a Russian hydrofoil from Spain to Tangier across the Straits of Gibraulter. On the way back, we were in dense fog, and moving at a crawl. I could hear ship horns all over the place, and felt like any moment a freighter would come out of the fog right at us as if we were the PT- 109.
gprellwitz
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Actually, I think it was two of them.
steingar
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My condolences to Bill. First fatalities in that race of which I've heard. I remember peering into the darkness on night watch and wondering if I could see a big ship bearing down on us. Quite tragic.
Threefingeredjack
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A good point, bow on at close range a large ship's running lights would be hard if not impossible to see. Bow wave possibly, but if your boat was laid over pushing hard anything to leeward might be blocked by the sails.
Cap'n Jack
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My condolences also.
wsuffa
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Two of them were close colleagues, including the boat owner/skipper. A third retired a couple of years ago - I had met him before he retired.
A very sad situation, especially since the two close colleagues were great engineers and really, really nice folks. The boat owner/skipper was an engineering fellow - and worked with radar, sensing & tracking of objects in 3 dimensions.
It's a very sad day at work today. Rest in peace, my friends.
A very sad situation, especially since the two close colleagues were great engineers and really, really nice folks. The boat owner/skipper was an engineering fellow - and worked with radar, sensing & tracking of objects in 3 dimensions.
It's a very sad day at work today.
Rest in peace, my friends.
steingar
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I am so sorry for your loss Bill.
Cap'n Jack
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I am also sorry for your loss. RIP
Skip Miller
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Illuminating the sail with a hand-held spotlight would make the sailboat very visible. However, this assumes that the merchie crew was neither drunk nor asleep either. This would obviously have to be done before the two vessels were in extremis, so that the merchant alone could have avoided the crash.
-Skip
Start the engine and shove it in gear. If someone red flags it worst you'll get is maybe a couple minutes penalty; race committee isn't typically retarded.
John Baker
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I lived on my sailboat for 12 years. I don't know how many times I have sailed those exact waters at night. I used to love to just head out by myself and head south. Several times I trimmed it and just sacked out for the night. I enjoyed waking up in the morning, having some coffee, then plotting my position, actually, more like guessing it, as it was all water, in all directions, then heading home or into Ensenada, well just a few miles north. My girlfriend at the time had a house on the beach just outside of town.
I never worried about shipping. Their radar would ping off my mast if they were anywhere near. It's a loud noise that sounds exactly like those old WWII submarine movies. Nobody is going to sleep through that. I heard it several times, but never saw a ship.
I've never been on the Newport to Ensenada race, but I crewed on the San Diego Ensenada race six times.
-John
I never worried about shipping. Their radar would ping off my mast if they were anywhere near. It's a loud noise that sounds exactly like those old WWII submarine movies. Nobody is going to sleep through that. I heard it several times, but never saw a ship.
I've never been on the Newport to Ensenada race, but I crewed on the San Diego Ensenada race six times.
-John
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wsuffa
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If the news reports are correct, Theo and crew were entered in a category that permitted use of a motor for parts of the race.
dell30rb
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You're joking right? It makes a noise?
I've been caught in thick fog in a boat once and was lost for hours. Fog is not usually a consideration on the chesapeake, but I should have known better. Nice day about 2mi offshore in waters I knew very well on my 24 foot fishing boat. It took me two hours but I made it back to the entrance of my creek using the sun and a depth sounder. Very creepy in the fog.. I'm fine at night offshore but no fog please!
A good radar reflector helps. I'm guessing the boat was equipped. Like a mid-air collision, just one of those freak things that is both sad and unfortunate.
My condolences.
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Yeah, I forget what year, maybe 87, it got retarded slow with no wind and people not quitting, we were one.
It went like a day overtime and kind of screwed up the timing. It was the last time I went too, I'll never subject myself to that again.
We would have fired up long ago but the charter party wanted to continue on and was willing and able to pay, so we did it. I heard they created some rule after that to keep things safe and on schedule but I never did hear what it was.
John Baker
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Nope, not joking a bit. It would make a very loud pinging noise off of my aluminum mast. It really does sound exactly like those old submarine movie pinging noises just before the depth charges would start going off if the ship was near.
I've never had a problem with sailing at night in the fog off our coast. The wind is usually pretty steady from the west, plus with charts and compass, all you have to do is find "The whistler" buoy outside San Diego harbor, which is pretty easy to do. It makes a very loud, kind of eerie groaning noise that is pretty hard to miss if your anywhere near it.
Once you find that, you just plot your way in to the bay. My boat was tied up inside Shelter Island, so it was pretty much straight in from the whistler.
That I have done many, many times. Of course I was in my 30s in those days. Young, stupid, not afraid of anything.
-John
gismo
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Sorry to hear this about your friends Bill.Two of them were close colleagues, including the boat owner/skipper. A third retired a couple of years ago - I had met him before he retired.
A very sad situation, especially since the two close colleagues were great engineers and really, really nice folks. The boat owner/skipper was an engineering fellow - and worked with radar, sensing & tracking of objects in 3 dimensions.
It's a very sad day at work today.
-lance
Threefingeredjack
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Threefingeredjack
I would be extremely interested if someone could explain this phenomena to me. An electromagnetic wave creating an audible response from a non-magnetic material.
Serious, I've noticed it too on a couple of boats, the rig has to be tuned just so and yeah you'll hear a ping in a mast from a nearby radar, I think it has to be a 10cm, which most big ships carry.
Not a clue outside of some kind of harmonic; it's all wave energy...
. In 25 years of sailing I've only noticed it on a handful of boats and only occasionally on them as well. I wouldn't consider it anything reliable.
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Threefingeredjack
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Not a clue outside of some kind of harmonic; it's all wave energy...
Yeah my guess as well....but it would have to be certain mast heights and a multiple of the 25cm, ( or whatever radar freq) wave if I remember my wave physics correctly. Neat however.
bbchien
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I did a six man crew to deliver a Sou'wester 54 to Hamilton, from Southwest Harbor. You know what almost got us? a half submerged dumpster.
I'm terrified to be out in a single hulled vessel without a BIG dinghy. It's crazy out there.....
I'm terrified to be out in a single hulled vessel without a BIG dinghy. It's crazy out there.....
2 bands in use, 3cm (typical and low cost) and 10cm (bigger and expensive, mostly only on larger ships, advantage is it isn't blocked by rain.)
LOL, we ride it out like the albatrosses and other birds you'll see bobbing along and feeding in the froth. Just keep her dry inside and loaded to a safe trim, get rid of excess free surface from tank spaces. Break out the MetRx Bars and Ensure and hunker down ready to hand drive.
You carried as I'd expect, a minimum crew for running a round the clock any weather watch, 6. 2 man watches, 4 hrs on, 8 hrs off. In heavy weather the 2 can spell each other on hourly or more frequent basis as required. Autopilots can't drive heavy weather. Autopilots can on react, driving the boat in heavy weather requires looking over your shoulder and proactively aligning yourself for every wave and do your best to keep the wind broad on the starboard quarter, that will get you to safe conditions quickest in the N Hemisphere. It also gives you a tail wind around the South side of a N Pacific extra tropical cyclone free from icing.
Thing on a boat is you need six strong drivers, and if one (or more) goes down fatigue on the remainder builds quickly and you get results like in the Sydney Hobart race that year they had all those bad accidents in heavy weather. That was because they were too short handed and too exhausted to continue driving. With electric hand tiller steering and a tug it's not too bad if you have a solid and good seat. If you have a wheel that can be steered by foot, its ok, but I still prefer a small stick that represents in rudder position and motion.
dell30rb
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If you want to do it right and build a legacy yacht your grandchildren will have their kids out on, you build it out of 90/10 copper nickle and you'll never spend a dime on bottom paint or corrosion maintenance over its entire life.
The pay off over Corten Steel right now is about 12 years.As for safety, any material is safe so long as you keep it in deep water. The design and ability to maintain water tight integrity is what is important. Keep it dry and in deep water and you will be ok.
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dell30rb
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If you want to do it right and build a legacy yacht your grandchildren will have their kids out on, you build it out of 90/10 copper nickle and you'll never spend a dime on bottom paint or corrosion maintenance over its entire life.
Never would have thought of that. I knew the bottom paint has copper.. and they used to just slap sheets of copper to cover the bottom of the hull