FAR Rewrite

[Greg Bockelman]

Anybody see this? From AOPA.

http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2009/090820partfinalrule.pdf

This is the final stuff and will go into effect in 60 days. So I understand.

Any comments?

It "fixed" the part where Advanced Ground Instructors could give instrument instruction in ground training devices.

Anything else stand out?

 

[poadeleted20]

• Student Pilot certificate duration now matches medical duration -- saves young folks from getting new SPC at the 24 month mark.
• Dumped idea to have no-expiration CFI certificates but a separate revalidation process -- FAA wanted to avoid issuing new certs every two years.
• Makes several things (but not landing currency) calendar months rather than exact days.
• Dropped some pretty drastic changes to the IFR currency rules.
• Allows issuance of CFI to designated military IP's after just a knowledge test.
• Allows dual XC's for CP to be done IFR, not just VFR.
• Eliminates the ability of CFI's with only an Instrument rating to give flight training (61.195(b)(1)) -- now must also have category/class rating for that aircraft on their CFI ticket.

 

[tonycondon]

i see they extended tow pilot currency to 24 months from 12 months.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I saw that too.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

• Allows dual XC's for CP to be done IFR, not just VFR.

NICE!

 

[poadeleted20]

NICE!

I'm not in favor of this one -- I think CP's who may be flying folks around in GA planes under VFR to places where there's no IFR service should be tested on their ability to navigate to Commercial standards using a map and compass. However, the FAA relented to pressure from flight schools who wanted to be able to use the 250nm IFR XC to meet that requirement as a cost-saving measure, and to avoid having to wait for good enough VFR for the night flight.

 

[ScottM]

I'm not in favor of this one -- I think CP's who may be flying folks around in GA planes under VFR to places where there's no IFR service should be tested on their ability to navigate to Commercial standards using a map and compass. However, the FAA relented to pressure from flight schools who wanted to be able to use the 250nm IFR XC to meet that requirement as a cost-saving measure, and to avoid having to wait for good enough VFR for the night flight.

I'm not following you on this Ron, please explain. The 250NM XC could always be done IFR but it is solo. How would flying that one help with the two dual XCs if those were changed to be able to be flown IFR?

I get the weather comment I am just missing how the 250NM ties into this at all.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm not following you on this Ron, please explain. The 250NM XC could always be done IFR but it is solo. How would flying that one help with the two dual XCs if those were changed to be able to be flown IFR?

The 250nm IFR XC is a requirement for the instrument rating, and must be done dual. The question is whether that flight could be double-counted to meet the dual XC requirement for Commercial, which had been limited to VFR only, and now it will be possible to do that. You may be thinking of the 300nm solo XC (including a landing more than 250nm from the original point of departure) required for the Commercial, which could always be done IFR or VFR, and which was not affected by or part of any of this.

 

[TMetzinger]

Let's see, they also removed the AGI's instrument teaching privileges, and even used the word "removed" in their comments, making it clear that AGIs could do instrument teaching before. Glad I've got the IGI exam scheduled on September 11th.


But if I read your earlier summary correctly, Ron, someone who takes the CFII ride as their first ride can't teach instruments in the actual airplane because they don't have the appropriate category and class ratings? That's good to know as I was considering doing the CFII first, but it would be almost useless unless I only taught in sims.

 

[ScottM]

The 250nm IFR XC is a requirement for the instrument rating, and must be done dual. The question is whether that flight could be double-counted to meet the dual XC requirement for Commercial, which had been limited to VFR only, and now it will be possible to do that. You may be thinking of the 300nm solo XC (including a landing more than 250nm from the original point of departure) required for the Commercial, which could always be done IFR or VFR, and which was not affected by or part of any of this.

I understand what you meant now. You had left off that you were speaking in the IFR XC and I was thinking CP requirements, thinking that you meant that long solo XC which indeed has a 250NM requirement and a 300NM requirement in it as you mentioned.

 

[poadeleted20]

Let's see, they also removed the AGI's instrument teaching privileges, and even used the word "removed" in their comments, making it clear that AGIs could do instrument teaching before.

There was never any question of that in the 1997 revision, but right from the start, they said it was a mistake they'd fix on the next revision.

But if I read your earlier summary correctly, Ron, someone who takes the CFII ride as their first ride can't teach instruments in the actual airplane because they don't have the appropriate category and class ratings?

That sure seems to be the way it reads now. It fixes the issue with the comma that some lawyer at FAA HQ said made it legal for folks to do that before.

 

[Palmpilot]

One thing I'm rather confused about is that the preamble says this, but it's not reflected in the final rule:

Under new § 61.57(c)(2), a person may use a flight simulator or flight training device
exclusively by performing and logging at least three hours of instrument recent flight
experience within the six calendar months before the month of the flight. [emphasis added]​

Here is the new 61.57(c)(2) in its entirety, with no mention of the three hours:

(2) Use of a flight simulator or flight training device for maintaining instrument
experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person
performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in a flight simulator or flight
training device, provided the flight simulator or flight training device represents the category
of aircraft for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained and involves having
performed the following—
(i) Six instrument approaches.
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic
systems.​

It's also confusing that the preamble says this about 61.57(c)(2) - (5):

Permits the use of flight simulators, flight training devices, or ATDs for
performing instrument recent flight experience.​

However the old rules already appeared to allow this for a flight simulator or flight training device, so it appears that they are only adding ATDs to this.

(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought... [emphasis added]

 

[BillTIZ]

• Student Pilot certificate duration now matches medical duration -- saves young folks from getting new SPC at the 24 month mark.

Capt Ron, I need to dig up an old event..
I understand that the new Student Pilot certificate was supposed to match the duration of the medical.. i.e., Class III.

But in an instance were a medical is not required for balloons or gliders.
Why would the FSDO issue a "non medical student certificate" with a 2 year expiration?

Are they applying the "over 40/under 40" age rule for Class III medicals to non medical student certificates?

This revision of § 61.19(b)(3) extends the duration period to 36 calendar months for the student pilot certificate for persons seeking a balloon or glider rating.​

In the NPRM, we proposed to revise § 61.19(b)(3) to extend the duration period for the student pilot certificate for persons seeking a balloon or glider rating to thirty-six calendar months. Since we proposed this revision, the FAA has issued the “Modification of Certain Medical Standards and Procedures and Duration of Certain Medical Certificates” final rule (73 FR 43064; July 24, 2008) that incorporates a new § 61.23(d) that extended the duration of the third class medical certificate to the “60​

th month after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate” for persons under the age of 40 years.
Therefore, we are making a conforming change that further revises § 61.19(b)(3) to parallel the provisions set forth in the “Modification of Certain Medical Standards and Procedures and Duration of Certain Medical Certificates” final rule. In effect, this revision extends the duration period for the student pilot certificate for persons seeking a balloon or glider rating to 60 calendar months after the month of the date the student pilot certificate was issued, regardless of the age of the person. Under the rule, persons seeking a balloon or glider rating are not required to hold a medical certificate (See § 61.23(b)(1)).
Three commenters supported the proposed increase in duration of student pilot certificates for persons seeking a glider or balloon rating. One commenter recommended the duration also be increased for persons seeking an airship rating due to the limited training assets available. The FAA has determined that the recommendation to expand this revision to include persons seeking an airship rating is beyond the scope of this final rule.
The FAA acknowledges the comments received on this proposal, and has made the change and conforming changes to § 61.19(b)(3). ​

So what happened?​

 

[bbchien]

It did not change. I get a FAR AIM (2010 this year) for xmas. 61.19b still says 24 months.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

It did not change. I get a FAR AIM (2010 this year) for xmas. 61.19b still says 24 months.

Check the printing date? Many of them, if not all, were printed prior to the new regulations taking effect. Jump on the FAA website, and compare your 2010 FAR/AIM to the website.

 

[bbchien]

I used paper because the DOT server is down. Got to faa.gov and put 61.19b in the search box. "Can't display this...."

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's the new rule, Bruce:

Section 61.19: Duration of pilot and instructor certificates.

(a) General. The holder of a certificate with an expiration date may not, after that date, exercise the privileges of that certificate.
(b) Student pilot certificate.
(1) For student pilots who have not reached their 40th birthday, the student pilot certificate does not expire until 60 calendar months after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate.
(2) For student pilots who have reached their 40th birthday, the student pilot certificate does not expire until 24 calendar months after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate.
(3) For student pilots seeking a glider rating, balloon rating, or a sport pilot certificate, the student pilot certificate does not expire until 60 calendar months after the month of the date issued, regardless of the person's age.
(c) Other pilot certificates. A pilot certificate (other than a student pilot certificate) issued under this part is issued without a specific expiration date. The holder of a pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license may exercise the privileges of that certificate only while that person's foreign pilot license is effective.
(d) Flight instructor certificate. Except as specified in 61.197(b), a flight instructor certificate expires 24 calendar months from the month in which it was issued, renewed, or reinstated, as appropriate.
(e) Ground instructor certificate. A ground instructor certificate is issued without a specific expiration date.
(f) Return of certificates. The holder of any airman certificate that is issued under this part, and that has been suspended or revoked, must return that certificate to the FAA when requested to do so by the Administrator.
(g) Duration of pilot certificates. Except for a temporary certificate issued under 61.17 or a student pilot certificate issued under paragraph (b) of this section, the holder of a paper pilot certificate issued under this part may not exercise the privileges of that certificate after March 31, 2010.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997, as amended by Amdt. 61–118, 73 FR 10668, Feb. 28, 2008; Amdt. 61–124, 74 FR 42547, Aug. 21, 2009; Amdt. 61–124A, 74 FR 53644, Oct. 20, 2009]

And yeah, the 2010 FAR/AIM books went to press before the 10/20/09 changes went into effect. You'll have to send in for the "mid-year update" to get them.

As for "what happened," well, I guess they realized they missed this issue when they wrote the NPRM, and that keeping the glider/balloon Student tickets at two years while kicking the others up to as much as 60 months was silly so they fixed it in the Final Rule.

 

[jnmeade]

Do FAR/AIM books get updated throughout the year, or is the 2010 edition on sale in paper the only version we'll see, so that we have to obtain an update to be current? How often does the FAR get changed - is this an issue to keep track of typically, and if so, where does one check to see that one is up to date?

Does one just use the online FAA version and don't buy paper, that way one should have the current version?

 

[poadeleted20]

Do FAR/AIM books get updated throughout the year, or is the 2010 edition on sale in paper the only version we'll see, so that we have to obtain an update to be current?

That's all up to the publishers, but generally, they updated the FAR/AIM books for the next calendar year right after the semi-annual August AIM update. Some publishers include a certificate for a mid-year update right after the February AIM update.

How often does the FAR get changed

It can happen on a daily basis, since every AD issuance is a Part 39 update. However, the FAR parts in your FAR/AIM book don't usually get updated that often -- more like every few months for minor changes, or every few years for major rewrites.

- is this an issue to keep track of typically, and if so, where does one check to see that one is up to date?

The only way to do that is to keep track in the Federal Register, because even the official Federal government CFR site isn't updated that often.

Does one just use the online FAA version and don't buy paper, that way one should have the current version?

Even the FAA online version can lag months behind the actual rules published in the Federal Register. I think it was 4-6 weeks before the 10/20/09 Part 61 rewrite made it up on the official site. Personally, I get the FAR/AIM book every year, and try to stay current on changes via online means.

 

[bobmrg]

Do FAR/AIM books get updated throughout the year, or is the 2010 edition on sale in paper the only version we'll see, so that we have to obtain an update to be current? How often does the FAR get changed - is this an issue to keep track of typically, and if so, where does one check to see that one is up to date?

Does one just use the online FAA version and don't buy paper, that way one should have the current version?

ASA has a product update page (www.asa2fly.com/farupdate), plus you get a free midyear update when you buy their book.

I go to the FAA home page when I need an answer based on the latest information.

Bob Gardner

 

[BillTIZ]

As for "what happened," well, I guess they realized they missed this issue when they wrote the NPRM, and that keeping the glider/balloon Student tickets at two years while kicking the others up to as much as 60 months was silly so they fixed it in the Final Rule.

But obviously the local FSDO does not know the new 60 month rule for glider students because he wrote an expiration date on the certificate for 24 months, not 60 months... which was the orginal question.

Not that I would want my student dragged out over 60 months, 24 is more than enough, we can usually do it in one year depending on the student.

But I have seen it drag out when life gets in the way... until the student either gives up totally or finally commits to getting it done.

 

[poadeleted20]

But obviously the local FSDO does not know the new 60 month rule for glider students because he wrote an expiration date on the certificate for 24 months, not 60 months... which was the orginal question.

And the idea that the FSDO missed this change is shocking because...?

 

[gismo]

And the idea that the FSDO missed this change is shocking because...?

Because they're never wrong. You knew that already.

 

[BillTIZ]

And the idea that the FSDO missed this change is shocking because...?

Shocking.. not really.. but surprised they did not check.
Our local FSDO is more into Part 121 and 135 operations and not so much on Part 91, General Aviation. Let alone to think about gliders or balloons.

 

[BillTIZ]

My question to the FSDO now will be.
Will student pilot certificates issued before Oct 2009 or after with a 2 yr expiration date automatically be valid for 60 months without additional paperwork to reissue the certificate?

I have one teen age student, his certificate was issued the month after his 14th birthday in 2008. He will be eligble for his check ride this fall. We will have about 6 weeks before the 2yr date expires.

So providing everything lines up.. we'll be ok. If not he'll have to get another student certificate to take a check ride.

 

[bbchien]

THanks Ron. I just packaged up that FAR AIM 2010 for return.....the website doesn't even have the update to part 61 on it. Sigh.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Remember that the FAR can change at any time and that while the AIM is on a schedule, it can also be changed by NOTAM at any time.

The paper FAR reprints have always had a currency problem.

 

[poadeleted20]

My question to the FSDO now will be.

You don't need to ask them -- it's in the rule quoted above.

Will student pilot certificates issued before Oct 2009 or after with a 2 yr expiration date automatically be valid for 60 months without additional paperwork to reissue the certificate?

There is no expiration date on the certificate. The expiration date is set by the regulation currently in force, not the regulation in force at the time of issuance. Thus, certificates issued prior to 10/20/09 are extended to the durations per the new version of the rule.

 

[BillTIZ]

You don't need to ask them -- it's in the rule quoted above.
There is no expiration date on the certificate. The expiration date is set by the regulation currently in force, not the regulation in force at the time of issuance. Thus, certificates issued prior to 10/20/09 are extended to the durations per the new version of the rule.

Thanx.. I'll check that again.. but the newly issued glider (non-medical) student certificate issued last week clearly had an issue date and an expiration date 24 months later.

When the new rules were discussed last fall before the 10/20/09 date, I agreed that the certificates would extend to the new version of the rule.

Thanx

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanx.. I'll check that again.. but the newly issued glider (non-medical) student certificate issued last week clearly had an issue date and an expiration date 24 months later.

In that case, the Inspector or Examiner screwed up. Take it back, point out the new reg, and have the Inspector/Examiner consult with AFS-600 before issuing a replacement. BTW, the problem is that the relevant section of FAA Order 8900.1 has not been updated since 2007 despite the reg change.