FAR 91.146 Donating a charitable Lunch

slcwork

Filing Flight Plan
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Stevec
Hi All,

I'm new to the forum. I have a questions about FAR 91.146.

I live near Lake Erie in Ohio. A group I belong to is having a silent auction.

I would like to donate a lunch for 2 on Put-in-Bay island (a small island that is a short flight from Port Clinton).

As a private pilot can I, subsequent to the auction, arrange to fly the winners to the island without violating 91.146?

I do not have the 500 hours required to donate the flight itself, but I don't believe the reg's say anything about donating a lunch and arranging transportation.

Too questionable?

I look forward to your thoughts.
 
Hi All,

I'm new to the forum. I have a questions about FAR 91.146.

I live near Lake Erie in Ohio. A group I belong to is having a silent auction.

I would like to donate a lunch for 2 on Put-in-Bay island (a small island that is a short flight from Port Clinton).

As a private pilot can I, subsequent to the auction, arrange to fly the winners to the island without violating 91.146?

I do not have the 500 hours required to donate the flight itself, but I don't believe the reg's say anything about donating a lunch and arranging transportation.

Too questionable?

I look forward to your thoughts.

"You are allowed to carry passengers under Part 91 provided they pay no more than their pro-rate share"

Would you be violating a technicality? Possibly. Would you ever be called on it? Very doubtfully.
 
What the OP has suggested is that he donate a lunch and not include the flight as part of the deal, and "make the decision to fly them" later. Someone could POSSIBLY make the argument that the flight was implicitly part of the deal, if they were really out to get the OP.

Let's say I fly a couple passengers to Catalina Island and unbeknownst to me, they had a voucher for a free lunch at the restaurant we eat at that they won at a charitable event. Have I violated 91.146?

Frankly, I've never understood the rationale behind that rule.
 
It is of my opinion that the flight would be legal as it was not part of the donation to the charity that the party received.
 
I would not do it myself because there are very few people I trust enough to hand my pilot's license over to. Meaning there are very few people that I would invite along if I planned on violating the regs.
 
There are ways to do this legally.
No, there aren't -- not for a Private Pilot with less than 500 hours. Since it involves a flight including landing somewhere other than the departure airport, it does not fall under 91.146. Further, the transportation is inextricably linked to the lunch for which the passengers are paying. It was a "free" flight tied to a paid party at that very same airport which cost this pilot his ticket.
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/5061.pdf

As for doing this "under the radar," all you need is one person involved to make mention of it to anyone else and the FAA to then find out even long after the event, because you will have left a paper trail with sufficient proof to hang you even if the folks involved do not testify.
 
Actually Ron, you need to re-read the reg. the OP proposes a flight from point a, land point b, and return to a. A PP cannot complete that flight even with 500 hours under 91.146.
Exactly what I said -- doesn't fall under 91.146. The fact that a PP with more than 500 hours can't do it either doesn't change the situation for the OP.

I never said for a private pilot could do this legally
Yes, you did:
There are ways to do this legally.
Perhaps you could share the ways the OP could do this legally.
 
Ok, there is an air taxi service for this island, is that a legal option Ron? The cost is $45 PP one way. The OP asked if he could "arrange to fly" the winners, which he legally can do.
I really don't think that's what the OP meant, but you are correct -- the OP can donate a couple of tickets on that commercial operator's flight along with the lunches. How you read that into the original post is beyond me, as it very definitely appeared s/he wanted to fly them him/herself, but there it is.

If you are going to be the site's chief self proclaimed FAA enforcement officer, you should learn to be a better investigator and ask questions instead of jumping to your own self proclaimed conclusions.
For someone who thinks things need to be added to the P/CG when they are already there, you might take your own advice and do better research yourself and stop throwing insults at me.
 
Hello all,

I never thought this question would generate friction. Take is easy gentlemen.

Thank you to whomever sent the legal document. That pretty well spells out the FAA's stance.

I still don't understand it. I can fly people I know to the island all day long and split the operating costs with them without an issue, but if I want to treat 2 people to a charitable lunch and absorb the costs of flying them to the island in my 172 somehow that's wrong. Completely incomprehensible.

I suppose I should just write a check to the organization equivalent to the cost of av-gas and the meals and call it a day. Doesn't provide anything for an auction but the ultimate point is to raise funds.

Peace,
Steve
 
Thank you to whomever sent the legal document. That pretty well spells out the FAA's stance.
You're welcome.

I still don't understand it. I can fly people I know to the island all day long and split the operating costs with them without an issue,
Not quite. You can fly them to the island with you when you go there for your own reasons other than to take them, and fly them back, but if you fly back and forth "all day" carrying friends, you're violating the "common purpose" criterion which is not explicitly stated in the regulations. Here's another interpretation taking about that issue, and it just happens to cover flying friends to an island:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...009/bobertz - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf


but if I want to treat 2 people to a charitable lunch and absorb the costs of flying them to the island in my 172 somehow that's wrong. Completely incomprehensible.
Perhaps not so incomprehensible if you understand the background. The FAA is absolutely adamant about having higher standards when folks are paying to be flown somewhere than when they're just hitching a ride with a friend who's going there anyway. That's a major part of their "levels of safety" concept for regulating flight operations. The highest level of safety is applied to "common carriage" operations such as the airlines, a lower level of safety is applied to non-common carriage operations such as charter flights, and the lowest level is applied to pilots flying by themselves (e.g., Student Pilots flying solo).

With these charity flights, someone is paying money to be flown somewhere, and has little idea about who's doing the flying or the plane in which they'll be flown. The FAA views that rather differently than when you're taking friends flying, since the FAA figures your friends know you well enough to decide whether they want to get in a plane with you. In the charity case, they want to provide more assurance of safety to the person paying for the flight but without going through the procedures for certifying a commercial air taxi operator, hence, the strict limits on such flights.

I suppose I should just write a check to the organization equivalent to the cost of av-gas and the meals and call it a day. Doesn't provide anything for an auction but the ultimate point is to raise funds.
You can do what you want, but please try to understand the reasons for the FAA's stance on these flights. As Dean pointed out you can either donate a couple of seats on the air taxi operator's flight out along with the lunch, or instead of donating the lunch, you could donate a sightseeing ride within 25 miles of the airport of departure -- lots of folks (including me) have been doing that for many years, and the riders always seem to enjoy it.
 
That's ok Ron, theres not 61.207 you listrd n that either.
I can't find any post of mine with "61.207" in it.

Get off your high horse. If you don't like someone oublically telling you that - get over it.
I don't mind someone pointing out an error, but I do mind when someone accuses me of being wrong when I'm not, or having posted something I didn't. Get your facts straight or stop bothering me.
 
I still don't understand it. I can fly people I know to the island all day long and split the operating costs with them without an issue, but if I want to treat 2 people to a charitable lunch and absorb the costs of flying them to the island in my 172 somehow that's wrong. Completely incomprehensible.

But you are not treating anyone (except the charity). Those folks are paying for the lunch and paying for the flight. It is just that the charity is getting the money but not you.
 
Apologies for bringing up this thread again, but woud the outcome be different if the flight and lunch was raffled? The difference I see is that no party would have directly paid any other party for the flight/lunch. It would be luck of the draw that awards the flight.

Granted people bought the raffle tickets and the flight/lunch was a potential prize, is this any different?
 
Let's say I take donations for flight across the USA in the form of money and or borrowing equipment such as an aircraft, headsets etc from sponsors, much like the Flight of the Human Spirit, can I take a passenger (co-author of my book) or is she gonna have to follow me everywhere on the ground in a car?

I apoligize, but this crap is confusing to me. :goofy:
 
Let's say I take donations for flight across the USA in the form of money and or borrowing equipment such as an aircraft, headsets etc from sponsors, much like the Flight of the Human Spirit, can I take a passenger (co-author of my book)
Sure, as long the people donating the money aren't getting air transportation of themselves or anything they own in return.
 
This type of situation comes up all the time on aviation boards. It seems simple to me. I must say Ron's explanation in post 14 should be made a sticky. Now every time a PP wants to understand why the FAA frowns on commercial operations for the PP he can be referred to this post. Well said Ron.
 
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