FAR 61.31(d) Change

brcase

brcase

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Brian
Anyone notice that FAR61.31(d) has changed recently.

(2) was deleted and (3) replaced it. Looks to me like a pilot may no longer be able to log PIC time while training in an aircraft they are not rated for.

i.e.
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or

has been removed.


Am I reading this wrong or missing something.

Thanks

Brian
 
brcase said:
Anyone notice that FAR61.31(d) has changed recently.

(2) was deleted and (3) replaced it. Looks to me like a pilot may no longer be able to log PIC time while training in an aircraft they are not rated for.

i.e.
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or

has been removed.


Am I reading this wrong or missing something.

Thanks

Brian
Click to expand...

I believe you are reading it wrong. Do not confuse Rated with Endorsed. Basically, you are authorized to log PIC as a student pilot on solo flights as long as the CFI has endorsed you for solo flight IN THAT AIRPLANE TYPE. It has nothing to do with flight training after you get your certificate IF you are flying the same category and class.
 
I certainly could be reading it wrong. Do you think it was deleted because it was redundant?
I need to go review the miles of thread on logging PIC again.
Brian
 
Sort of appears to me that FAR 61.51 covers the logging however I am not sure what "an approved pilot in command training program" is.

Does a CFIG providing instruction for a Glider add on qualify and an approved program?

Brian
 
61.31 speaks only to acting as PIC, not logging PIC time. In that regard, nothing's changed -- you can still log PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i) in any aircraft in which you are rated and of whose controls you are sole manipulator, whether you are qualified to act as PIC or not.
 
Ron Levy said:
61.31 speaks only to acting as PIC, not logging PIC time. In that regard, nothing's changed -- you can still log PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i) in any aircraft in which you are rated and of whose controls you are sole manipulator, whether you are qualified to act as PIC or not.
Click to expand...

So, when I went up with a CFI last night to do some night practice, I could log that even though I wasn't night current? These rules get me all confused.
 
Jeez, even the guy that was only rated in a Skyhawk, that flew and landed the King Air after the pilot had a heart attack got to log PIC...

Were you the sole manipulator of the controls? (i.e. the other guy did not have to take control)
If yes, log it as PIC...
If no, log it as dual instruction...
It is just that simple...

In my logbook it is PIC time if I say it is...

denny-o
 
So the point is that logging PIC and being PIC are not necessarily the same thing.
 
chucky said:
So the point is that logging PIC and being PIC are not necessarily the same thing.
Click to expand...
You got it. There are many threads here on that topic. Also, edfred.has a good flowchart on logging PIC.
 
chucky said:
So, when I went up with a CFI last night to do some night practice, I could log that even though I wasn't night current? These rules get me all confused.
Click to expand...
Assuming the aircraft was one in which you were rated, yes. 61.57 landing currency is only an issue for acting as PIC, not for logging PIC time. If, however, you went up in a twin with your instructor but you hold only an ASEL rating, you could not log that as PIC time, but you could log it as training received ("dual").
 
Dr. O said:
Jeez, even the guy that was only rated in a Skyhawk, that flew and landed the King Air after the pilot had a heart attack got to log PIC...
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
Assuming the aircraft was one in which you were rated, yes. 61.57 landing currency is only an issue for acting as PIC, not for logging PIC time. If, however, you went up in a twin with your instructor but you hold only an ASEL rating, you could not log that as PIC time, but you could log it as training received ("dual").
Click to expand...

Unless the passenger->pilot had a ME rating, he couldn't log it as PIC, coule he?

Category: Check
Class: Need the ME
 
JeffDG said:
Unless the passenger->pilot had a ME rating, he couldn't log it as PIC, coule he?

Category: Check
Class: Need the ME
Click to expand...
It's an interesting question. If the pilot was dead, and our hero was the sole remaining living human occupant, he could still log it as PIC time under paragraph (e)(1)(ii) which does not require being rated. Even if there were other living humans aboard, our hero might still be able to log it under the Chief Counsel interpretation about being the only pilot aboard, although that interpretation did included being rated, so this would be an extension of that interpretation, and thus open to "further review."

However, I don't think it's worth wasting the Chief Counsel's time to get a legal interpretation on the matter unless our hero is really desperate to log the time, and even then, what would be the point?
 
Ron Levy said:
61.31 speaks only to acting as PIC, not logging PIC time. In that regard, nothing's changed -- you can still log PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i) in any aircraft in which you are rated and of whose controls you are sole manipulator, whether you are qualified to act as PIC or not.
Click to expand...

So Ron,

What do you think about a private pilot airplane pilot logging dual training in a glider as PIC. The private pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. But he is obviously not rated in the glider.

I think I am beginning to understand this situation

If I read 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A) correctly, as long as the private pilot has a rated Commerical or ATP pilot ACTing as PIC, the Private pilot can LOG PIC time. Note, it doesn't necessarily have to be a flight instructor.

Is that correct?

Thank You

Brian
 
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brcase said:
What do you think about a private pilot airplane pilot logging dual training in a glider as PIC. The private pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. But he is obviously not rated in the glider.

I think I am begging to understand this situation

If I read 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A) correctly, as long as the private pilot has a rated Commerical or ATP pilot ACTing as PIC, the Private pilot can LOG PIC time. Note, it doesn't necessarily have to be a flight instructor.

Is that correct?
Click to expand...
See the highlighted line above, and then read this from 61.51:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
Click to expand...
Also, from the paragraph you mentioned:
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided-
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation-
Click to expand...
...and reconsider the question.
 
Well, I've learned something about part 61 in this thread. The logging of PIC time does not explicitly have anything to do with who is legally PIC. So two pilots can, in some cases, log PIC time for the same flight (like the refresher flight I mentioned above). But a strict reading of 61.51 seems to imply that there are cases in which there is a legal PIC, but no pilot can log it as PIC time, i.e. the King Air situation mentioned above. Probably a more sensible position, though, is that the case of pilot incapacitation simply isn't covered in 61.51, and that pilot should log the time, and if it were ever an issue as the FAA general counsel for an opinion on the matter.
 
And, Sully couldn't log seaplane time when he landed the Airbus in the Hudson.
 
chucky said:
Well, I've learned something about part 61 in this thread. The logging of PIC time does not explicitly have anything to do with who is legally PIC. So two pilots can, in some cases, log PIC time for the same flight (like the refresher flight I mentioned above).
Click to expand...

Yeah, you got that right. LOL

But a strict reading of 61.51 seems to imply that there are cases in which there is a legal PIC, but no pilot can log it as PIC time,
Click to expand...

As strange as that seems, it is true.

i.e. the King Air situation mentioned above. Probably a more sensible position, though, is that the case of pilot incapacitation simply isn't covered in 61.51, and that pilot should log the time, and if it were ever an issue as the FAA general counsel for an opinion on the matter.
Click to expand...

Well, as long as the time isn't being used for any certification requirements, there is really no harm, in that particular case.
 
chucky said:
Well, I've learned something about part 61 in this thread. The logging of PIC time does not explicitly have anything to do with who is legally PIC.
Click to expand...
No joke. No sarcasm.

You have picked up a basic truth record time; a basic truth many others took a long, long time to accept, and still others will never really understand.

To be fair, there are times when logging PIC =is= tied to being PIC. But in those situations, 61.51 tells you so.
 
Okay, so the question that naturally presented itself to me next was, how is the actual PIC determined? So, a search of the PoA archive. Oof! That's a can of worms!
 
Ron Levy said:
It is determined by agreement (preferably before engine start) between the pilots involved.
Click to expand...
..and by the FAA post facto, based on the probable sequence of pre-crunch events.....as in the FSDO inspector who balled up an Aerostar after having said, "my airplane", at the end of a 135 ride.
 
Ron Levy said:
It is determined by agreement (preferably before engine start) between the pilots involved.
Click to expand...

That I had always understood, and I have it as part of my pre-engine-start checklist.

bbchien said:
..and by the FAA post facto, based on the probable sequence of pre-crunch events.....as in the FSDO inspector who balled up an Aerostar after having said, "my airplane", at the end of a 135 ride.
Click to expand...

It was the legal angle that I was unsure about, and I'm realizing now that there isn't really anything to be sure about. I guess that's unsurprising. Anyway, my apologies for the quasi thread jack, but thanks to all for the explanations - I've learned things.

Now I guess I should start thumbing through my AIM/FAR and see what other regulations I've never fully understood...or go study more IFR stuff.
 
chucky said:
It was the legal angle that I was unsure about, and I'm realizing now that there isn't really anything to be sure about.
Click to expand...
In event of an accident or violation, absent some written assignment (like a name on a flight plan or dispatch sheet), it often turns into a he-said/she-said situation, and the FAA has to sort it out.
 
brcase said:
So Ron,

What do you think about a private pilot airplane pilot logging dual training in a glider as PIC. The private pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. But he is obviously not rated in the glider.


Is that correct?

Thank You

Brian
Click to expand...

I know Ron posted a reply to this but..
"Any Power Pilot" regardless of level of rating, but not rated in a glider, WILL NOT log PIC time in the glider while flying with me. He may log "dual received" if it was agreed to ahead of time and instruction was provided by me and I sign his logbook.

If he does not present his log book, the training never happened.

Once he has received appropriate training and his logbook is endorsed under 61.31(d)(3), then he may log PIC time while flying SOLO.

The standard format under AC61-65E and the FAR does not include an expiration period (ie, 90 day student solo endorsement). It had been recommended by many DPEs to add an expiration date.
62. To act as PIC of an aircraft in solo operations when the pilot does not hold an appropriate category/class rating: section 61.31(d)(3).
[FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]I certify that ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]First name, MI, Last name[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]) has received the training as required by section 61.31(d)(3) to serve as a PIC in a ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]category and class of aircraft[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]). I have determined that he/she is prepared to serve as PIC in that ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]make and model of aircraft[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]). [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05 [/FONT][/FONT]
​
​
Click to expand...


​
 
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brcase said:
If I read 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A) correctly, as long as the private pilot has a rated Commerical or ATP pilot ACTing as PIC, the Private pilot can LOG PIC time. Note, it doesn't necessarily have to be a flight instructor.
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
See the highlighted line above, and then read this from 61.51:

Also, from the paragraph you mentioned:
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided-
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B ) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation-
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The 2010 FAR AIM I have has dropped paragraph (iv) from 61.51(e).
 
TangoWhiskey said:
The 2010 FAR AIM I have has dropped paragraph (iv) from 61.51(e).
Click to expand...
No. The paper reprint "2010" FAR AIM you bought had a publication deadline and is already out of date.

61.51(e)(iv) was added in October 2009.

This seems to be a recurrent theme - people thinking that the paperback reprint of the AIM and selections of the FAR they bought from Joe Publisher is up-to-date when they buy it. The AIM reprint is pretty likely to be up-to-date because even the FAA produces it on (sort of) a schedule, but the FARs can change at any time and the book you buy is more likely to be out-of-date than current.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
No. The paper reprint "2010" FAR AIM you bought had a publication deadline and is already out of date.

61.51(e)(iv) was added in October 2009.

This seems to be a recurrent theme - people thinking that the paperback reprint of the AIM and selections of the FAR they bought from Joe Publisher is up-to-date when they buy it. The AIM reprint is pretty likely to be up-to-date because even the FAA produces it on (sort of) a schedule, but the FARs can change at any time and the book you buy is more likely to be out-of-date than current.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark, you're right. ASA is who I got it from, and they are really good about sending email updates about changes; I note the ones that apply to my areas of operation and update the book (i.e., I don't note all the Part 35 and 121 stuff). I missed that addition! Thanks.

The government's site has the addition listed:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.31
 
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There are big problems with the 2010 FAR/AIM because the FAA released the big 10/20/09 change to Part 61 after the 2010 FAR/AIM's went to press shortly after the August 2009 AIM update went out. Until the 2011 books come out in about six months, unless you get the mid-year update insert which should be coming out about now, you'll have to go to the web to get the current version of Part 61.
 
So to ask a slightly different question. What is the purpose of 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A)?

When would on use this rule?

Thank You?
 
brcase said:
So to ask a slightly different question. What is the purpose of 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A)?

When would on use this rule?

Thank You?
Click to expand...

Is this what you are talking about?

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot --

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
Click to expand...

All three of the parts apply. And I am not sure of the question.
 
I was given an ASA FAR AIM 2010 for Xmas. (yes, dont' guffaw). It was out of date. I sent it back to Sporty.

I had to print all 179 pages from the eCFR and they're on my table at work with a big box clip holding 'em together..... sigh.
 
brcase said:
So to ask a slightly different question. What is the purpose of 61.51(3)(e)(iv)(A)?
Click to expand...
Assuming you really meant paragraph (e)(iv)(A):
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided-
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
Click to expand...
This, along with the other three "anded" paragraphs below, permits a trainee in a commercial operation undergoing type training to log PIC time while the instructor is acting as PIC for the flight. Otherwise, the "rated" requirement in paragraph (e)(1)(i) would prevent the trainee from logging PIC time since the trainee lacks the type rating.
 
bbchien said:
I was given an ASA FAR AIM 2010 for Xmas. (yes, dont' guffaw). It was out of date. I sent it back to Sporty.

I had to print all 179 pages from the eCFR and they're on my table at work with a big box clip holding 'em together..... sigh.
Click to expand...

For some reason the FAA site was down for me so I got my info off of another site. Hmm
 
bbchien said:
I was given an ASA FAR AIM 2010 for Xmas. (yes, dont' guffaw). It was out of date. I sent it back to Sporty.

I had to print all 179 pages from the eCFR and they're on my table at work with a big box clip holding 'em together..... sigh.
Click to expand...

My only problem with eCFR... when will they learn to INDENT?
 
weilke said:
He IS glider rated, so he COULD log it as glider PIC.
Click to expand...
While I recognized the facetiousness of this exchange, from an FAA perspective, it's what's on the Type Certificate which determines glider vs airplane, not whether or not the aircraft is currently generating power.
 
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