failing eye exam

bluee

bluee

Line Up and Wait
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What would happen if someone failed the eye exam of the third class medical? I know someone taking lessons who I think needs reading glasses but refuses to admit it. What would he have to do if he fails the medical for that? Please don't point out the obvious of going to an eye doctor first; I am trying to convince him of that. I want to know what would happen if he fails the eye exam.
 
As far as I know, not much. That would be his wakeup call to go get an eye exam. Once he does that and gets the corrective lenses, he goes back to the AME and either finishes the exam or retakes it.
 
Once you sign and submit the application to the AME, s/he does not repeat not have the option to just suspend the examination while you go get an eye exam and a pair of glasses. What happens when you can't read the eye chart in any form is the application is denied (not deferred), and the applicant has to reapply after getting corrective lenses. Then, the unsuccessful applicant will have to check "yes" in the box about "have you ever been denied an aviation medical certificate" on every FAA medical and aviation insurance application for the rest of his/her life and explain what happened.
 
Just buy a set of cheaters from the drugstore and use them if you need them. I know lots of pilots (including me) who are on this threshhold. The idea to use cheaters was from my eye doctor. She doesn't see anything wrong with them. No need for an expensive prescription.
 
Everskyward said:
Just buy a set of cheaters from the drugstore and use them if you need them. I know lots of pilots (including me) who are on this threshhold. The idea to use cheaters was from my eye doctor. She doesn't see anything wrong with them. No need for an expensive prescription.
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Yes - but in your case you actually saw an eye-doc prior to the AME.

I'm surprised that I hear so many stories of pilots going to the AME every 2 or 5 yrs without having a vision exam and physical first. I can see that for students because too many times they don't know any better, but for everyone else?
 
Matthew said:
Yes - but in your case you actually saw an eye-doc prior to the AME.
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But that had nothing to do with my medical. I go to the eye doctor every year because I have a prescription for contacts. I know pilots who have never gone to an eye doc. At least that's what they claim.
 
Everskyward said:
But that had nothing to do with my medical.
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Yeah, I understand, I'm in the same situation. But I schedule my annual eye exam before my AME visit - if I need a new prescription then at least I have enough time to get used to it before I see the AME and I also know that I'll pass anyway. (It helps a little that my eye guy is also a pilot.)

It just seems good sense to get an eye exam at a local eye place so you know where you stand first so that you don't force the AME to pull the plug.
 
Everskyward said:
But that had nothing to do with my medical. I go to the eye doctor every year because I have a prescription for contacts. I know pilots who have never gone to an eye doc. At least that's what they claim.
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I wear glasses and probably go every 3 or 4 years (whenever I get tired of my glasses). I think I am supposed to go every 2 years, so I fall into the category of not going enough, I guess. It hasn't burned me yet, but I will start thinking about that more. So far, I am just nearsighted, but I am almost 50, so eventually I will need reading glasses. Stuffing some cheaters in your pocket, just in case, is probably a good idea, though.
 
John221us said:
I wear glasses and probably go every 3 or 4 years (whenever I get tired of my glasses). I think I am supposed to go every 2 years, so I fall into the category of not going enough, I guess. It hasn't burned me yet, but I will start thinking about that more. So far, I am just nearsighted, but I am almost 50, so eventually I will need reading glasses. Stuffing some cheaters in your pocket, just in case, is probably a good idea, though.
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I'm pretty good about the eye doctor part but I've been really lousy about the medical doctor part, especially when I was younger. For a long time the FAA exam was the only time I ever saw a doctor.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm pretty good about the eye doctor part but I've been really lousy about the medical doctor part, especially when I was younger. For a long time the FAA exam was the only time I ever saw a doctor.
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I am the opposite. I get annual physicals pretty religiously and try to stay in pretty good shape. I just don't think about the eye thing, unless I decide I need new glasses.
 
John221us said:
I am the opposite. I get annual physicals pretty religiously and try to stay in pretty good shape. I just don't think about the eye thing, unless I decide I need new glasses.
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I know the annual physical is a good idea and I have tried to be better about it in my older age. It seems like I'm always going to the FAA doc though, since I am required to do it every 6 months.
 
Everskyward said:
Just buy a set of cheaters from the drugstore and use them if you need them.
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The OP isn't the one with the problem -- the OP is trying to get ammunition to convice a friend not to walk into the FAA medical exam unprepared, i.e., to explain the consequences if the friend doesn't pass the eye test first try.
 
People who have the attitude expressed by 'my eyes are fine, I don't need to see the doc my arms are just getting too short" generally do not have a good attitude when it comes to being proactive about pending problems either with themselves or their aircraft. . . .
 
Ron Levy said:
Once you sign and submit the application to the AME, s/he does not repeat not have the option to just suspend the examination while you go get an eye exam and a pair of glasses. What happens when you can't read the eye chart in any form is the application is denied (not deferred), and the applicant has to reapply after getting corrective lenses. Then, the unsuccessful applicant will have to check "yes" in the box about "have you ever been denied an aviation medical certificate" on every FAA medical and aviation insurance application for the rest of his/her life and explain what happened.
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That is what I wanted to know, thank you. I will pass this along.
 
Everskyward said:
Just buy a set of cheaters from the drugstore and use them if you need them. I know lots of pilots (including me) who are on this threshhold. The idea to use cheaters was from my eye doctor. She doesn't see anything wrong with them. No need for an expensive prescription.
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Good idea, thanks.
 
comanchepilot said:
People who have the attitude expressed by 'my eyes are fine, I don't need to see the doc my arms are just getting too short" generally do not have a good attitude when it comes to being proactive about pending problems either with themselves or their aircraft. . . .
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Couldn't agree more. I chose to remain anonymous here, because this describes my former CFI, who admittedly couldn't read charts -- and who knows what else -- anymore! It saddens me that people in the position of being teachers and role models would set such bad examples.
 
I was flying with my son as the sun was going down. I pulled out a flashlight to check the airport frequency and he asked why I needed the flashlight. I told him it was to read the numbers in the dark. He said "You mean where it says 122.9?" The chart was in front of ME, not in front of HIM.

I went to the eye doc and was prescribed +1.25 for each eye. I picked up a bunch of +1.25 cheaters and put them everywhere, including a few pair in the plane.

Next FAA exam, the doc said I'd probably need glasses next time. I pulled out the cheaters and said "These?". He told me to keep them available, but didn't put the restriction on that medical. It went on the next one.
 
I'd just tell him to go see an optometrist. They do a lot more than write eyeglass prescriptions these days. Their services are also pretty inexpensive. An annual trip to the optometrist is a good investment of health care dollars, as far as I'm concerned.

-Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
I'd just tell him to go see an optometrist. They do a lot more than write eyeglass prescriptions these days. Their services are also pretty inexpensive. An annual trip to the optometrist is a good investment of health care dollars, as far as I'm concerned.
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I think the OP knows that pretty well already. It appears the problem here is not what to tell the friend to do, but rather motivating the friend to do it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think the OP knows that pretty well already. It appears the problem here is not what to tell the friend to do, but rather motivating the friend to do it.
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Absolutely right, Ron. That's why I was mentioning the economy of optometrists compared to some other health care providers. Maybe the OP's friend is a tightwad like me who likes a bargain. :rofl:

By the way, did you get my PM?

-Rich
 
For those recommending cheaters... Just go to the eye Doc. Especially if you have never been screened for the various things that can cause vision loss.
 
If you fail, you get denied. Pretty simple. Then, any AME who wants to issue the corrected eyes has to call to get authority on the case. Since few AMEs will do that, expect a 90 day wait.

Tell your friend it he's that cheap, maybe he should be denied. sigh. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
 
bbchien said:
If you fail, you get denied. Pretty simple. Then, any AME who wants to issue the corrected eyes has to call to get authority on the case. Since few AMEs will do that, expect a 90 day wait.

Tell your friend it he's that cheap, maybe he should be denied. sigh. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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Good grief! I was thinking the exact same thing! But I thought I was just being cynical, so I kept my trap shut.

But seriously, the guy wants to be a pilot, of all things; and he's too cheap / apathetic / lazy / whatever to get his eyes checked?

-Rich
 
He's not cheap nor apathetic. He hates to admit he is getting old. In any case, he told me today that he is planning on having his eyes checked beforehand. I think it's borderline if he needs reading glasses or not, and the insinuations that he's a blind idiot are not fair.
 
bluee said:
He's not cheap nor apathetic. He hates to admit he is getting old. In any case, he told me today that he is planning on having his eyes checked beforehand. I think it's borderline if he needs reading glasses or not, and the insinuations that he's a blind idiot are not fair.
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Well think about it. The Flight Physical is a practical test.

Come unprepared for the practical test. Right.

Hating to admit to your limitations is a leading cause of aviation FUBARS. This is all about aviation safety, isn't it?

So what conclusion might one arrive at? That vision is not vital to safety? Or that being able to see might shorten one's training time? Or that maybe just maybe, the guy doesn't "get it" and gets denied? Maybe is there some bass-ackwards FAA "justice" going on here (no, NOT really...:eek:). But seriously, when a man doesn't know his limitations, what kind of a student is he going to be?

If he's a senior aviator, what kind of pilot is he going to be? He'll be the kind of guy who doesn't see you in the pattern, cuts you off, blasts away from the fuel pumps barely missing the other guy's wing because HE CAN'T SEE THE THING even if he thought of it, or sandblasting the fabric taildragger behind the turn because he "can't see it clearly"?

Good on you, Bluee for leading him to the trough. You're a good friend.

Mind you, I spend a lot of my time prepping and defending pilots who just won't do what it takes. When a pilot fails for something as simple....well what should I think?

So here's an example. I'm not quite 60, just gettin close. Yesterday the Skew T shows a layer from 300 agl to 4,000, no ice in the tops (by temps) just yet. I need two approaches. I file. I have 5 hours' fuel. Fortunately, the bottoms are at 400; two approaches (ILS to 200 and LPV to home) are borrring and the needles (hand flown) are LOCKED in the donut. So I see between approaches, at 2300 it's now three degrees colder than when I started. That meant ICE at 4,000. So NO third approach, just the LPV to 288 at my home port. It was about 400 ovc, actually. So why would I create a REAL problem?

How about a guy who can't see? What kind of judgement has he got?

What SHOULD I think? "Application discouraged, and if he insists, denied", like the system demands. So the opthalmologist will find and fix his cataract, and he will be better for it. But best to find out BEFORE the denial so that none of this happens.
 
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Bruce,

This thread brings me to an interesting question.. I'm a current 3rd class holder and had zero issues with that eye exam. I'm uncertain if my eyes are good enough to pass a second. I'm 100% uncorrected. If I fail the second class, can I still retain my 3rd privileges if my eyes pass that until I see an eye doctor?
 
That you negotiate with the AME, who can switch your application to 3rd to avoid failing you. Thank _od that we can still do that.

One more thought about the OP's friend: There REALLY is no excuse. You can get a lenscrafter's eye exam for $29.00. You can buy readers from Wally World for $3.99, selecting the correct one by reading the 20/20 line on the box from 18" away with the correct ones (you have to do one eye at a time to pass the FAA exam).
 
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Unregistered said:
This thread brings me to an interesting question.. I'm a current 3rd class holder and had zero issues with that eye exam. I'm uncertain if my eyes are good enough to pass a second. I'm 100% uncorrected. If I fail the second class, can I still retain my 3rd privileges if my eyes pass that until I see an eye doctor?
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Since Bruce mentioned the word "negotiate," that suggests there's a chance it won't work. I would suggest going to an independent optometrist for a vision check to see exactly what your uncorrected vision is, and if it's not 20/20 in each eye separately, then either get some glasses or limit your application to Third Class.

One thing I've learned from Bruce about aviation medical certification is that preparation is everything. Think of it as an extension of Rumpole's First Rule of Cross Examination -- "Never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer." In this context, one might say that Chien's First Rule of Aviation Medical Examination is "Never submit an FAA medical application unless you already know what the AME will find upon examination."
 
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bluee said:
He's not cheap nor apathetic. He hates to admit he is getting old. In any case, he told me today that he is planning on having his eyes checked beforehand. I think it's borderline if he needs reading glasses or not, and the insinuations that he's a blind idiot are not fair.
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It may not be fair, and I apologize. But I don't know this guy. All I know is what you're saying, and what that boils down to for me is this: A middle-aged or older guy hasn't had his eyeballs checked in a while.

It doesn't matter to me that we're just taking about reading glasses, which are a normal appendage of middle and old age. My point is that that he hasn't had his eyeballs checked in some time. That he wants to be a pilot is actually secondary to age in this regard. There are certain things that should be pretty much automatic once we get to middle age, and annual eye exams are one of them.

By an eye exam, I don't mean reading the eye chart at the DMV. I mean some professional actually examining the eyeballs, including a glaucoma screening, retinal exam, and whatever else it is they look for using those drops that dilate your pupils and make you see blurry for the rest of the day.

I live in NYS, where most optometrists are licensed to diagnose eye diseases, prescribe drugs, and perform full eye exams. But because their overhead and insurance are much lower, a routine eye exam from an optometrist costs a lot less than one from an ophthalmologist.

The optometrist I use was recommended by my PCP and is very thorough. She charges me $92.00 for an annual eye exam, including a new reading glass prescription if I need it, which I think is a pretty darned good deal. New patients pay a bit more, I think an even hundred bucks.

Mind you, that's a hundred bucks a year. We're talking about roughly a hundred bucks a year to protect your eyesight. I plan to put that much down on a 5-year-old gelding in the seventh at Aqueduct tomorrow.

So yeah, it seems strange to me that a middle-aged or older guy hasn't gotten his eyeballs looked at in a while, just on general principles, just because he likes being able to see. With good eyeball exams available on the cheap, not getting one at least once a year does seem negligent and unwise to me.

Good on you, though, for helping him to see the light (pun intended). :yes:

-Rich
 
Bruce,

If we do submit ourselves to an eye exam pre-AME visit or as a "general eye health" thing, is it prudent for us ask the eye doc to complete the 8500-7 form, in case it's asked for?
 
I get a new second class medical every October. So in July I go to my optometrist and, if necessary, update my eyewear. I then go to my ophthalmologist in September with my new eyewear for a more comprehensive exam and have him fill out an 8500-7 which I bring to my AME (I always have issues with the AME's vision machine).
 
I'd sure recommend that your friend take a pair of Valldemart readers along on the AME visit. My AME has never had a problem with my trying the near vision test (or any other vision test for that matter) without correction and falling back on the glasses if necessary. I think one even had a few pairs of readers lying around for applicants to borrow if needed.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Bruce,

If we do submit ourselves to an eye exam pre-AME visit or as a "general eye health" thing, is it prudent for us ask the eye doc to complete the 8500-7 form, in case it's asked for?
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If it's a practitioner known to me, I then have the option to accept his/her data. Most of the time however one or more of the 20 foot/ 32 inch / 16 inch boxes is left blank.
 
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