Failed Medical, Psych Eval Results Coming

The advice to contact Dr. Bruce directly and off forum is the best you have so far, MrAviator180

The advice from me is to cease poking this bear in a public forum.
 
Interesting Bruce has stayed off this thread . . . . cause its not in medical matters I guess.
 
Mr. Aviator - where in the DSM-IV or -V is there a dx of 'mild' ADHD? What are the criteria - what is the neuropysch going to say? You have some control over this by talking to the doc and negotiating language . . . I can tell you are a yout cause you think that life happens to you still and it is not the consequence of your action or inaction . . .

If you paid for the report and the report has not been sent -

1. Call the Neuropysch and say no final report without my approval
2. ASk for a draft so you can discuss it.
3. If you do not objectively meet the diagnostic criteria of ADD or ADHD then s/he damn well better not use those words.
4. If 5 of 7 criteria must be present - and if they are not objectively and clearly present then you are not to be diagnosed and s/he should not use the words at all. . . .

The thing about pysch illnesses is that they are generally fairly clearly manifested - someone hearing voices is obviously generally distracted and not with it - there is a clear issue going on with it. When it comes to ADD/ADHD the kids who truly had it - clearly had it- it was not a marginal thing. . . . .

Look - you can stop the train here before it leaves teh station but if the neuropysch does a report in an environment where they are paid to make a dx? Then you are screwed. Do they know what the point of the neuropysch eval is? It is to determine what you want to do the rest of your life?

This is called 'owning your medical' and if you do not do it - no one else will. . . .

https://www.msu.edu/course/cep/888/ADHD files/DSM-IV.htm

Free advice - take it FWIW
 
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Look - you can stop the train here before it leaves teh station but if the neuropysch does a report in an environment where they are paid to make a dx? Then you are screwed. Do they know what the point of the neuropysch eval is? It is to determine what you want to do the rest of your life?

That's part of the reason that the evaluation should not be done with insurance. Insurance companies really, really like to see a diagnosis when they give the doctor money, so they oblige them and provide a dx, and in this case you are specifically trying to get a "no dx" report.
 
Lots of good advice here - but...

I think the OP is 16-17. This is a lot for a guy his age to digest. He'll really need someone to help walk him through, and he said he's already in touch with the doc.

Not to pick on anyone - but when a 'kid' starts training, and wants to prove his independence and decision making ability, then runs headlong into an FAA steamroller due to something that might very well be out of his control or that he might not even be aware of, well...mistakes will be made.

I've said it before - a pet peeve of mine are CFIs that tell students that a medical just involves fogging a mirror. A CFI doesn't have to pry, but a couple quick questions about prescription meds and a suggestion for an AME consult can sure prevent a lot of expensive headaches.
 
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I've said it before - a pet peeve of mine are CFIs that tell students that a medical just involves fogging a mirror. A CFI doesn't have to pry, but a couple quick questions about prescription meds and a suggestion for an AME consult can sure prevent a lot of expensive headaches.

Yes indeed. One of the first things I would talk to a potential pilot about is the medical stuff, especially in this ADHD age.
 
The prob I see with flight training is that a flight school and CFI will take your money - get you started and not ensure you can finish the rating because whats the drop out rate? Easily 60-70% Who cares - rent my airplane for 10-12 hours, some ground school, buy some books, maybe a headset, and CFI hours, so what if 2 out of every 3 drop out . . . . its a stat that is hard earned and understood for a long time . . . . and adds to the bottom line. Sadly.
 
Yes indeed. One of the first things I would talk to a potential pilot about is the medical stuff, especially in this ADHD age.
I think part of the problem is as others have insinuated is that teaching flying is a commercial entity, and the risks of a student failing a medical and losing business because of this are far outweighed by the monetary benefits. Furthermore, I think most CFI's and schools for that matter, probably do not feel they are qualified to make those decisions. Finally, I would bet that the number of people that cannot pass the third class medical are quite small in comparison to the number that pass, and requiring someone to undergo a medical before flying may scare off some people who would otherwise get bit by the bug and then see the medical as something necessary. That being said, I do find it interesting that SCUBA has taken the exact opposite approach, and requires everyone who dives to have medical clearance by their phyisician(I realize its not the same as a AME certified class three medical) prior to training(at least it was when I took training in the early 80's and then recurrent training in the late 90's, and advanced training in the early 2000's).
 
I've said it before - a pet peeve of mine are CFIs that tell students that a medical just involves fogging a mirror. A CFI doesn't have to pry, but a couple quick questions about prescription meds and a suggestion for an AME consult can sure prevent a lot of expensive headaches.

Yes indeed. One of the first things I would talk to a potential pilot about is the medical stuff, especially in this ADHD age.

Not just ADHD, but lots of health issues that the FAA at minimum wants more documentation of and at worst, says denial.

For the small flying club we are launching, I have been considering asking folks that desire to join and would be primary students to voluntarily fill out a questionnaire that includes #17 and 18 of 8500-8. If that reveals any "AME guidance is a good idea" issues, then we can get that known and done upfront before lots of flying money is wasted. I definitely don't want to be one of the "just fog the mirror and lay down in front of the bus" types.
 
I do find it interesting that SCUBA has taken the exact opposite approach, and requires everyone who dives to have medical clearance by their phyisician(I realize its not the same as a AME certified class three medical) prior to training(at least it was when I took training in the early 80's and then recurrent training in the late 90's, and advanced training in the early 2000's).

I don't recall this with the PADI shop where I got my initial training in 2000 nor the other shop and independent instructors I worked with later on.

It's not a bad idea, especially for the more risky stuff (like planned deco), but I don't recall it being a requirement.
 
I don't recall this with the PADI shop where I got my initial training in 2000 nor the other shop and independent instructors I worked with later on.

It's not a bad idea, especially for the more risky stuff (like planned deco), but I don't recall it being a requirement.
When I trained medical clearance from your physician was part of the initial application. My initial training was with the old YMCA program(no longer exists) with an ex navy seal, and then repeat with PADI, and some NAUI mixed in for some of the advanced courses, and then back to PADI.
 
I think part of the problem is as others have insinuated is that teaching flying is a commercial entity, and the risks of a student failing a medical and losing business because of this are far outweighed by the monetary benefits. Furthermore, I think most CFI's and schools for that matter, probably do not feel they are qualified to make those decisions. Finally, I would bet that the number of people that cannot pass the third class medical are quite small in comparison to the number that pass, and requiring someone to undergo a medical before flying may scare off some people who would otherwise get bit by the bug and then see the medical as something necessary. That being said, I do find it interesting that SCUBA has taken the exact opposite approach, and requires everyone who dives to have medical clearance by their phyisician(I realize its not the same as a AME certified class three medical) prior to training(at least it was when I took training in the early 80's and then recurrent training in the late 90's, and advanced training in the early 2000's).

??? I don't recall medical clearances in the SCUBA industry and I worked in it during most of the 90s. I'm certified through SSI, PADI, and IANTD through Divemaster and Trimix and have never seen a doctor for any one of them.
 
Not true in NAUI. You fill out a form with a list of 30 or so conditions that MIGHT be a problem. If any are checked the instructor is supposed to interview the student to determine if they are suitable for diving, and only if in doubt to send the student to the physician.
 
For the small flying club we are launching, I have been considering asking folks that desire to join and would be primary students to voluntarily fill out a questionnaire that includes #17 and 18 of 8500-8. If that reveals any "AME guidance is a good idea" issues, then we can get that known and done upfront before lots of flying money is wasted. I definitely don't want to be one of the "just fog the mirror and lay down in front of the bus" types.

I'm not sure I'd do that. You run into medical privacy issues.

What I would you is provide provide a one-page document explaining the sport pilot catch 22. I would include the list of items identified on 8500-8 form, and advise applicants who check "yes" to any of the items to seek counsel with a qualified AME prior to seeking a medical certificate to determine whether a certificate is possible, and if so, what documentation is necessary.
 
Not true in NAUI. You fill out a form with a list of 30 or so conditions that MIGHT be a problem. If any are checked the instructor is supposed to interview the student to determine if they are suitable for diving, and only if in doubt to send the student to the physician.
Maybe that was the way it was done. In any case, it was a lot more proactive initially than what is done in aviation. The first time anything medical was discussed with me was just before my solo and that was to tell me to schedule my medical. How difficult would it be for the FAA to require some sort of screening medical form to be part of the initial documents to be filled out for flight training.
 
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Maybe that was the way it was done. In any case, it was a lot more proactive initially than what is done in aviation. The first time anything medical was discussed with me was just before my solo and that was to tell me to schedule my medical. How difficult would it be for the FAA to require some sort of screening medical form to be part of the initial documents to be filled out for flight training.

The questionnaire in SCUBA is strictly CYA in case something goes wrong.
 
Not true in NAUI. You fill out a form with a list of 30 or so conditions that MIGHT be a problem. If any are checked the instructor is supposed to interview the student to determine if they are suitable for diving, and only if in doubt to send the student to the physician.

Now this I do remember.
 
I'm not sure I'd do that. You run into medical privacy issues.

What I would you is provide provide a one-page document explaining the sport pilot catch 22. I would include the list of items identified on 8500-8 form, and advise applicants who check "yes" to any of the items to seek counsel with a qualified AME prior to seeking a medical certificate to determine whether a certificate is possible, and if so, what documentation is necessary.

This is a better idea. Thanks!!!
 
Not if the patient voluntarily provides the information . . .

Doesn't matter. If you don't have a need for the information, you shouldn't ask for it. Your medical history is a private thing between you and your doctor...not the membership chairman of the flying club.

Give the applicant the facts and let them decide how to proceed. Most newbies don't know how the system works and don't know the right questions to ask.
 
I don't think CFIs need to get into privacy issues, that's why I said they don't need to pry. But a simple - "If you've ever taken anything for ADD, or are on prescriptions, you probably should call an AME and set up an appointment for a consult. Here's a list of the AMEs around here. It'll cost a couple bucks, but can prevent you from being permanently grounded." would work.

In my case - I got a student (free) 6 month membership to AOPA. They had, maybe still do, TurboMedical. It let's you fill out an unofficial copy of the medical. It guides you through each question, then lets you know if it flags anything.
 
Doesn't matter. If you don't have a need for the information, you shouldn't ask for it. Your medical history is a private thing between you and your doctor...not the membership chairman of the flying club.

Give the applicant the facts and let them decide how to proceed. Most newbies don't know how the system works and don't know the right questions to ask.

Yep, just give them a page of all the disqualifiers and tell them "If any of these apply to you, consult with an AME before proceeding with a medical application." You may even consider giving the Bruce's website.
 
Doesn't matter. If you don't have a need for the information, you shouldn't ask for it. Your medical history is a private thing between you and your doctor...not the membership chairman of the flying club.

Give the applicant the facts and let them decide how to proceed. Most newbies don't know how the system works and don't know the right questions to ask.

Sure it matters - you may an obligation to safeguard the information once they give it to you - but if its voluntary then its freely given.

Its not like the FAA/DMV/FBI/CIA/DHS/LAPD?NYPD/HHS/AETNA/UHC and everyone else don't already have it anyway . . . .
 
Sure it matters - you may an obligation to safeguard the information once they give it to you - but if its voluntary then its freely given.

Its not like the FAA/DMV/FBI/CIA/DHS/LAPD?NYPD/HHS/AETNA/UHC and everyone else don't already have it anyway . . . .

Joe, do you just want to argue, or do you really not get it?
 
And not your instructor who threw you under the bus by not bothering to talk to you about some of the common medical pitfalls.

Did he/she give you the "if you can fog a mirror you will be OK" routine?

Is it your instructor's job to make sure you are medically qualified?

I keep seeing people talking about "mild" ADD/ADHD.. and it being "well controlled"... That tells me people really dont understand the disorder, or what it really means. The drugs may help you concentrate and focus a bit better, but some things still are impaired. Time to execution. Decision-making. Attention to environment. There is a reason children with ADD have a much higher injury rate. And those numbers are factual and not in dispute.

They may do just fine in an unstressed environment, but when it gets down to the nut-cutting and pressure is on, decision-making and reaction falls apart. Put the pilot in an ultralight and only the pilot has to deal with the consequences. Sport pilot on up involves passengers, and increased risk. The FAA's mission is not to promote aviation and turn people into pilots. Its to protect the public and (attempt to) enhance safety.

Doc Bruce has weighed in on this matter repeatedly and consistently. His answer on the subject reflects how the FAA and their aeromedical division views the issue.
 
This thread has officially denigrated into Monty Python sketches . . . sorry.
 
Actually, MrAviator, whomever paid for your evaluation is the owner of the eval, along with you. REQUIRE A COPY of the executive summary (about 5 pages).

The problem is that our pilot here is OUT of the LOOP and has no means to get his eval.... I'm assuming due to how it shook down, that the FAA required it so it's getting sent there.

If he doesn't want to play ball, his license will be endangered. Further you can get it from the agency under FOIA if you need to. The real problem here is WAITING without knowing.

The real heinous sin is the overdiagnosis of ADD. Under title 9, schools get about $6,000 per pupil more for the pupil on meds. The benefits (to the system) of getting someone on the meds is enormous.
 
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In the 90s SSI was self certification until dive control specialist (dive master). Then a form had to be filled out by a physician.
 
In the 90s SSI was self certification until dive control specialist (dive master). Then a form had to be filled out by a physician.

That's how I remeber it with PADI too I had to get medicals for Divemaster and Assistant Instructor. There was not much to them, but they were required.
 
I think I'm at liberty to say that the OP apparently was issued today by the agency.
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No, I didn't have anything to do with this. But the waiting WILL drive you nuts.
 
I think I'm at liberty to say that the OP apparently was issued today by the agency.
:)
:)
:)
No, I didn't have anything to do with this. But the waiting WILL drive you nuts.

Well that's GOOD news!
 
UPDATE 9/19

I got my medical! After four months of ups and downs, I am on track!! Boy, does it feel good. It's under special issuance with likelihood of bring converted to a normal issuance. I will have to get a yearly review, but that's not bad at all.

Blue skies everyone!
 
UPDATE 9/19

I got my medical! After four months of ups and downs, I am on track!! Boy, does it feel good. It's under special issuance with likelihood of bring converted to a normal issuance. I will have to get a yearly review, but that's not bad at all.

Blue skies everyone!

Congrats. Go forth and fly.
 
I presume ADHD, which is considered by the FAA to be both disqualifying and a lifelong dx.

He's already screwed.

If his current psych confirms the dx . . .

I dont know what your AE friends did, but ADHD is a disqualifying medical condition. Period. I'm sorry. It doesn't matter how well you can deal with it.


The FAA will say you have ADHD and you will be denied. Forever. They do not recognize "mild case" when it comes to this. You need an expert advocate such as Doc Bruce, if only to determine if there is any hope.

Unfortunately, for the OP, it appears that the diagnosis was not in error, as his new psych testing confirms the diagnosis.

UPDATE 9/19

I got my medical! After four months of ups and downs, I am on track!! Boy, does it feel good. It's under special issuance with likelihood of bring converted to a normal issuance. I will have to get a yearly review, but that's not bad at all.

Blue skies everyone!

I love it when a guy, and especially a young guy, can fight the system and come out with a positive conclusion despite all the nay sayers.

Congrats Mr. Aviator!!

BTW... Where are you flying? Nome, McGrath? Bethel?
 
UPDATE 9/19

I got my medical! After four months of ups and downs, I am on track!! Boy, does it feel good. It's under special issuance with likelihood of bring converted to a normal issuance. I will have to get a yearly review, but that's not bad at all.

Blue skies everyone!

Good to hear!
 
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