Failed engine on a night flight...

T

Tracey

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
825
Display Name
Display name:
tracey
I'm going on my first night flight tonight and my instructor said that the thing about night flights is that if you have an engine failure and need to do an emergency landing, you can't really see any fields, so you're kind of hosed, but do your best. This wasn't a very comforting thought.

I thought I'd ask all of you pros here if you had any other ways to look at engine failure at night (without the benefit of the light from a full moon)... as far as landing ideas. (Although I realize there's always a lit up freeway, right? We can land WITH traffic...:redface:).

Any other ideas? Suggestings? Different perspectives?
 
Last edited:
My instructor told me to wait until I was a few hundred feet above the ground and then turn on the landing light. If I didn't like what I saw, turn it off.:D
 
John Collins said:
My instructor told me to wait until I was a few hundred feet above the ground and then turn on the landing light. If I didn't like what I saw, turn it off.:D
Click to expand...
Alrighty then. Not sure if I should :rofl: or :no:

Thanks! (I think?!).
 
  • Plan flights over airports. IOW, go out of your way to avoid large expanses of black darkness below.
  • Do a thorough preflight in daylight before the flight. If that isn't possible, bring a good flashlight. Take your time.
  • You will hear the engine make sounds at night that you've never heard before. These will be amplified if you are alone, x2 if you are single pilot IFR.
  • Know how to use the NRST function on your GPS.
  • If the engine fails, look for the airport you just flew over.
  • If there's no airport in gliding range, remind yourself not to do this again.
 
I'm no pro, but you go into night flight with the understanding that the risk level is always elevated due to your inability to see visible moisture very well (especially critical in New England this time of year) and of course the terrain and obstructions over which you are flying. Before you make the flight, your instructor should be working with you closely with a sectional, mapping out all the major roads, preferably interstates, and airports with timing and routing so that you have the best opportunity to make a landing on or off field, as possible. Thats just how it goes.

If you have a GPS map in the plane, it is your friend at night, especially the nearest airport feature. Should anything go amiss on the flight, don't hesitate to land. BTW you'll be amazed how every little sound, vibration and wiggle is amplified at night. Again, that's just how it goes. Night flying is really cool and beautiful!
 
Two other points... make SURE you have a good weather briefing. A cloud layer can develop VERY quickly underneath you at night, and you won't know it until it's fairly well developed. Second, if the clouds allow for it, flying higher gives you a much longer distance to glide, so if you ever DO have that engine failure, you are more likely in gliding distance of something decent to land on, or at least have more time to troubleshoot why the engine quit working.

Ryan
 
My policy is to always fly high at night; a larger "cone of options" is yours with altitude. As noted, the "nearest" function on the GPS is very helpful here, and some practice is also wise. Many pilots forget that the best option may well be *behind* them.

The airplane does not know whether it's light or not - prepare well, and enjoy the flight. I love flying at night, as the air is smoother, there is much less traffic, and I very often get the magic phrase, "cleared direct destination" from ATC.
 
Excellent excellent advice everyone. Thank you so much. I really appreciate all of this info and plan to execute all of your suggestions as well.

Thank you so much!
 
Just the title of the thread is enough to scare me! Even though most of my flying is in pretty open country, losing an engine at night would still be BAD!

During my oral exam, the subject of night flying came up and I said something about the fear of losing an engine at night. The DPE's response was, if you have no fuel problems, modern aircraft engines will never quit. He then went on to warn me about flying at night as far as runway approaches being different and other warnings.

I'm STILL not anxious to do a lot of night flying.

I went ahead and did my night flying so there was no restriction on my Private, but if you are afraid of it, just don't do the night flying and take the restriction on your certificate. I think you can still do this.

I will get more comfortable with it over time and it is mandatory if I want to achieve my goal of CFI.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Just the title of the thread is enough to scare me!
Click to expand...
Good to know I'm not the only one.

As far as having a restriction on my ticket... I'm trying not to let my inner wimp win :no: ... so I'm gonna go for it (but keeping in mind everyone's suggestions here, that's a huge help).

Good luck on persuing your CFI ticket! And thanks for your response.
 
Tracey said:
Good to know I'm not the only one.

As far as having a restriction on my ticket... I'm trying not to let my inner wimp win :no: ... so I'm gonna go for it (but keeping in mind everyone's suggestions here, that's a huge help).

Good luck on persuing your CFI ticket! And thanks for your response.
Click to expand...


I don't think there is an option for a PP with Night Flying restriction....

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
  • You will hear the engine make sounds at night that you've never heard before. These will be amplified if you are alone, x2 if you are single pilot IFR.
Click to expand...
Oh, and this bit of info... thanks a lot for it. I can imagine freaking myself out over unfamiliar noises-- so thanks for pointing this out (along with everything else).

(And your last point made me laugh).
 
dmccormack said:
I don't think there is an option for a PP with Night Flying restriction....
Click to expand...
I seem to recall reading that there is IF you live in Alaska, where it may be months before you can get a night flight done. You can get your certificate with a restriction on night flying, but you have to do the night flights when you're able. I don't think there is an option for just keeping the restriction permanently.

Well, there is, kind of. The Recreational Pilot certificate. That has other restrictions, but the worst of them (no flights outside of a 50 NM radius, no operations in Class B/C/D airspace) can be worked around with training and a logbook endorsement. Then you're just limited to daylight flying, no more than 4 seats, only one passenger, no more than 180HP, and under 10K ASL or 2K AGL.
 
DaleB said:
I seem to recall reading that there is IF you live in Alaska, where it may be months before you can get a night flight done. You can get your certificate with a restriction on night flying, but you have to do the night flights when you're able. I don't think there is an option for just keeping the restriction permanently.

Well, there is, kind of. The Recreational Pilot certificate. That has other restrictions, but the worst of them (no flights outside of a 50 NM radius, no operations in Class B/C/D airspace) can be worked around with training and a logbook endorsement. Then you're just limited to daylight flying, no more than 4 seats, only one passenger, no more than 180HP, and under 10K ASL or 2K AGL.
Click to expand...

That is correct. Sport pilots are also limited to Day, VFR.
 
DaleB said:
I seem to recall reading that there is IF you live in Alaska, where it may be months before you can get a night flight done. You can get your certificate with a restriction on night flying, but you have to do the night flights when you're able. I don't think there is an option for just keeping the restriction permanently.
Click to expand...

See 61.110.
 
Remember that hypoxia affects your night vision first (supposedly, above 5000' for a flatlander). So unless you have oxygen keep that in mind as you stay higher for options. Thus far I haven't gone above 6500 at night. It was hard to tell if my night vision was negatively impacted. If I was planning a long XC at night I'd seriously consider investing in an O2 system (can you rent them?) because I'd want to keep the altitude up for margin.

If you are very conservative about fuel planning (IMHO the 45 minute required night reserve is not enough!) your likelihood of an engine failure goes down quite a bit.
 
A very useful tool for night flying is having a moving map GPS with detailed terrain, in particular lakes, roads and of course airfields. If unable to reach an airfield a road would be a good choice if there is no power lines along it. A lake ditching is highly survivable as long you carry flotation gear (life vest or seat cushions). The worst survival scenario is crashing over mountains at night. Either fly at high altitude or over a mountain pass where there are roads.

José
 
Dan, thanks. My proposed altitude is 4500 there and 5500 back. But the winds aloft are pretty strong, (if you ask me), they're 2936 at 4,500 and 3045 at 6,000.

Another thing, I was told to get a headlamp with a red bulb, but then someone else told me this: Red is old standard and still in use but new research is leaning towards soft (very soft and dim) white and blue-green) as being better.

Do you guys have any thoughts on that too?
 
Piloto said:
A very useful tool for night flying is having a moving map GPS with detailed terrain, in particular lakes, roads and of course airfields. If unable to reach an airfield a road would be a good choice if there is no power lines along it. A lake ditching is highly survivable as long you carry flotation gear (life vest or seat cushions). The worst survival scenario is crashing over mountains at night. Either fly at high altitude or over a mountain pass where there are roads.

José
Click to expand...
We don't have a moving map with detailed terrain, but we do have a moving GPS map. Just that magenta line thing.

And as far as my plan to crash over mtns tonight: No way Jose!;) (I just had to say that). Thank you for your response!
 
John Collins said:
My instructor told me to wait until I was a few hundred feet above the ground and then turn on the landing light. If I didn't like what I saw, turn it off.:D
Click to expand...
I heard the same thing before my night flight too. We did do one landing with the landing light off and just the runway lights which was an unusual experience. Not that big of a fan of driving in the dark so not sure if I'll purposely do any night flying, but if I get back from a trip and it's dark I'd still land. I wouldn't take off in the dark though.
 
saracelica said:
I heard the same thing before my night flight too. We did do one landing with the landing light off and just the runway lights which was an unusual experience. Not that big of a fan of driving in the dark so not sure if I'll purposely do any night flying, but if I get back from a trip and it's dark I'd still land. I wouldn't take off in the dark though.
Click to expand...

You'd better be alone. :yes:

If you never take off in the dark it is impossible to be night current (to carry passengers).
 
You can also get the same engine noises by flying over large bodies of water :)

As everyone has pointed out, plan to stay in gliding distance of a airport if possible and have outs. Make sure you have plenty of fuel. Mostly think of this, the chances of losing a engine are really really small. I don't have the number handy but I'm willing to bet that the chances of losing a engine at night vs. the chance of losing it during the days a like winning the lottery. It happens but not very often.
 
Look in the POH and determine a conservative glide distance per 1000' of altitude. In other words, know if your plane can go 1, 1.5, 2 miles per altitude that you have. Then remember to deduct the average ground elevation from your cruising altitude. You should be able to know (and regularly be doing the simple math during the flight) that you're cruising at 6,500 feet, the ground is at 500 feet, so you have 6000 feet to glide, and at 1.5 miles per 1000, you can go 9 miles to your nearest airport. If your GPS says the nearest field is 12 miles away, spending your time heading that direction is a losing effort, and you'll know that immediately.

Then, I'd also advise to be aware of what the winds aloft are doing prior to your flight. If there are strong winds, heading into the wind is going to shrink your glide radius / circle. Going downwind may give you an increased glide range.

If you have to put down off field, knowing the general surface wind direction ahead of time can help you plan your landing to land into the wind--slowest possible touchdown speed will increase your chances of survival in an off airport landing.

Finally, remember that your engine doesn't know it's night time, and they don't fail any more often at night than they do during the day. Relax, enjoy the smooth air, the ease of spotting traffic and other aircraft, and enoy the flight!
 
TangoWhiskey said:
If there are strong winds, heading into the wind is going to shrink your glide radius / circle. Going downwind may give you an increased glide range.
Click to expand...
The winds aloft are 2936 at 4,500 and 3045 at 6,000. (I'll be flying at 4,500 and 5,500). Those winds seem pretty strong to me, do they to you?

And thanks for the glide info... I will factor that in/figure that out too. Good info. Thank you.
 
jtheune said:
I don't have the number handy but I'm willing to bet that the chances of losing a engine at night vs. the chance of losing it during the days a like winning the lottery.
Click to expand...
Ok, now I'm glad that I've never won the lottery! lol.

Thank you.
 
dmccormack said:
  • Plan flights over airports. IOW, go out of your way to avoid large expanses of black darkness below.
Click to expand...


Whats the best option in this situation. You know there are mountains with large towers and windmills behind you as you just flew over them, unable to make nearest airport or not 100% sure you could make it back, everything is dark BUT you can see light reflecting from a large size lake.

In this situation , would you opt for the water landing ? I think I would since it is the only thing I can without a doubt make out and guarantee .
 
cavmedic said:
Whats the best option in this situation. You know there are mountains with large towers and windmills behind you as you just flew over them, unable to make nearest airport or not 100% sure you could make it back, everything is dark BUT you can see light reflecting from a large size lake.

In this situation , would you opt for the water landing ? I think I would since it is the only thing I can without a doubt make out and guarantee .
Click to expand...

Having done that several times over the Alleghenies in SW PA and WV, I can tell you I don't have much of a plan between airport gliding range. The lake landing would be the last resort, but it would not be fun to ditch at night in a fixed gear SEL.
 
Tracey said:
The winds aloft are 2936 at 4,500 and 3045 at 6,000. (I'll be flying at 4,500 and 5,500). Those winds seem pretty strong to me, do they to you?
Click to expand...
Bumping my winds aloft info... in case anyone wanted to weigh in. They seem strong to me, but what do I know. :dunno:
 
Once you're off the ground, about the only things winds aloft will do is slow you down (they always seem to be headwinds!).

And remember - if you you have strong winds aloft from one side, you'll be in a pretty big wind correction angle. If you are looking for a landmark or airport that you expect to be at your 12:00, you might end up seeing it at your 10 or 2.
 
I haven't made a night flight in a couple years, but I love it. It's cooler, calmer, and out west here, the big splotches of light look just like the yellow spots on the sectional. VFR navigation is almost boring when you can be climbing through 4,500 on departure and see the nav beacon at the destination airport on the horizon.

Two of my most memorable flights were at night. I proposed to Cindy in a DA-20 flying over the Portland, OR area at night. The other was the night cross-country with my instructor in an open tandem gyroplane.

But +1 on using GPS and trying to stay within gliding range of an airport. Following roads is also a strategy, but I'd prefer it be an interstate, because there will be fewer wire crossings. If wires are hard to see in the daytime, they'd be about impossible at night.

The gyro is a little different, with its very limited glide range. Look for the next lighted parking lot and make a vertical descent to the ground, sacrifice the gear and possibly the aircraft, but walk away. Same strategy but better outcome with an auto in a helicopter, but you'd better not be rusty on timing the pull on the collective to flare.

Lots of you guys are instrument rated, but I'm not, so a flight plan and flight following are pretty important for me at night.

There's lots of remote desert area here. If you had to put it down in western Utah, you also need a communications plan, because you could easily be outside cellphone range. Spot, 406 ELT, a ham radio handlheld that can reach civilization, something. Use 121.5 on the way down. There are people who survive emergency landings at night and die of exposure waiting for help.
 
All good things here. Mine is fly higher, follow airports and roads even if it makes the trip longer, GPS ready to hit NRST
 
Tracey said:
Dan, thanks. My proposed altitude is 4500 there and 5500 back. But the winds aloft are pretty strong, (if you ask me), they're 2936 at 4,500 and 3045 at 6,000.

Another thing, I was told to get a headlamp with a red bulb, but then someone else told me this: Red is old standard and still in use but new research is leaning towards soft (very soft and dim) white and blue-green) as being better.

Do you guys have any thoughts on that too?
Click to expand...

I use a red headlamp (LED). My cherokee does not have panel lights, so I really need it. The headlamp works great.

John
 
Tracey

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_472JZpyoio is an interesting video over a mountain crash over Colombia. Had the aircraft been equipped with terrain depiction the pilot would have been aware of the mountains and avoid the crash. Portable GPSs like the Aera, G496, G796 and others shows terrain in detail at a relative low cost. They are worth every penny.

José
 
Piloto said:
Tracey

Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_472JZpyoio is an interesting video over a mountain crash over Colombia. Had the aircraft been equipped with terrain depiction the pilot would have been aware of the mountains and avoid the crash. Portable GPSs like the Aera, G496, G796 and others shows terrain in detail at a relative low cost. They are worth every penny.

José
Click to expand...

+1 I had a "situational awareness" issue early in my training, which caused me to see the safety value of adding a portable GPS (I bought a 496).
 
I fly nights a lot - I really enjoy night flying - and the one thing I do is alter my course so that, as much as possible, there is always an airport within gliding distance along my route. I also tend to fly a couple thousand feet higher at night. I think those are the major differences.
 
Yes, Tracey the winds aloft seem strong. If they aren't flowing over mountainous ridges though they are not likely to cause trouble other than to affect your ground speed and track.
I fly at night a fair amount out here and you can't stay high enough to glide to an airport there aren't many! I just enjoy the cool, calm air and accept the risk. I mitigate it by knowing where I am because I fly the route routinely during the day and have taken note of it very carefully.
I like to take the students up first on a clear full or nearly full moon night as their first flight and then on a night with no moon so they see the difference. It matters when you are flying in open uninhabited areas.
You'll enjoy your flight, just be mindful of weather.
 
dmccormack said:
Having done that several times over the Alleghenies in SW PA and WV, I can tell you I don't have much of a plan between airport gliding range. The lake landing would be the last resort, but it would not be fun to ditch at night in a fixed gear SEL.
Click to expand...

Having a GPS that could switch to a roadmap mode could come in handy in that scenario. That possible road could be the better of the other two .
 
Tracey said:
Dan, thanks. My proposed altitude is 4500 there and 5500 back. But the winds aloft are pretty strong, (if you ask me), they're 2936 at 4,500 and 3045 at 6,000.

Another thing, I was told to get a headlamp with a red bulb, but then someone else told me this: Red is old standard and still in use but new research is leaning towards soft (very soft and dim) white and blue-green) as being better.

Do you guys have any thoughts on that too?
Click to expand...

AIM 8-1-6(b)(2)...red light is not at the top of the list.

Bob Gardner
 
I wouldn't be afraid of the night flight, but as others have stated, you have to be more aware and plan accordingly.

During the day, you should be asking yourself, "If my engine goes out, where am I landing?". At night, this is even more important. Flying a route along airports is good, but not always practical. Extra fuel is a must.

But.... if your engine goes out, this is what I've been taught.

Option 1: NRST on the GPS, try to glide to the nearest airport.
No airport / too far.
Option 2: Pick the nearest MAJOR highway. (You'll be able to pick roads out without any problem at night) Expressway is best, 2 lane is worst. When driving along sometime, check to see how many wires are strung across a normal 2 lane road. How many poles, trees, etc. Line up with traffic, turn your landing light on, then the last 25', force the plane down to the road. Minimize your time between 10' and 25' to avoid power lines, signs, bridges, etc.
No close roads (Northern WI), No airport AND Winter
Option 3: Field if you can see it with moonlight, frozen lake, etc. If you know the ice is good, a frozen lake would be option 2. But thin ice, getting wet, is a death sentence in winter. As someone else said, "When you get down near the ground, turn on your landing light......if you don't like what you see..... turn it off". A controlled full stall landing into trees / rough field / can be survivable.
No roads OR Summer, Dark Night, Densely Populated
Option 3: Time for damage mitigation. Go for the water landing or turn away from the city. It's not going to be pretty, but you hopefully won't kill anyone on the ground. The last night flight I did coming in over the bay to Green Bay for my complex rating, the instructor asked "Engine out, where would you land?" I couldn't see fields, best glide was into the city (short of the runway) or into the bay. The water was option 1.

That's my $0.02 at least.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top