FAA withdraws ATD rule.

TMetzinger

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Tim
SUMMARY: The FAA is withdrawing a direct final rule regarding aviation training devices published December 3, 2014. That rule would have relieved burdens on pilots seeking to obtain aeronautical experience
for an instrument rating by increasing the allowed use of aviation training devices. The FAA received adverse comments to the direct final rule and, thus, is withdrawing the direct final rule.

DATES: The direct final rule published on December 3, 2014 at 79 FR 71634 is withdrawn, effective January 15, 2015.

Background

On December 3, 2014, the FAA published a direct final rule regarding use of aviation training devices (ATDs). The direct final rule would have increased the maximum time that may be credited in an ATD toward the instrument time requirements for an instrument rating under Sec. 61.65(i). The direct final rule would have permitted a person to credit a maximum of 20 hours of instrument time in an approved ATD toward the requirements for an instrument rating under that section. The direct final rule would have also amended appendix C to part 141 to increase the limit on the amount of raining hours that may be accomplished in an ATD in an approved course for an instrument rating. With this direct final rule, an ATD would have been permitted to be used for no more than 40 percent of the total flight training hour requirements for an instrument rating. Finally, the direct final rule would have revised Sec. 61.65(i)(4) to eliminate the requirement that pilots accomplishing instrument time in an ATD wear a view-limiting device.

Withdrawal of Direct Final Rule

The FAA is withdrawing the direct final rule because the agency received adverse comments to the rule. The agency is obligated by Sec. 11.13 to withdraw a direct final rule if the agency receives any adverse comments. One commenter raised concerns regarding the effectiveness of ATDs for training, suggesting that these devices do not provide appropriate sensory cues or provide a realistic environment. Another commenter believed that the increases in time/percentage of training contained in the direct final rule were too great. As a result of this withdrawal, the current regulations remain in effect, which provides that no applicant for an instrument rating under part 61 may credit more than 10 hours of instrument time in an ATD toward the minimum aeronautical experience requirements required to take the practical test for an instrument rating. In addition, no graduate of a training program approved under appendix C to part 141 may credit more than 10% of the required coursework in ATDs (unless that program has been approved in accordance with Sec. 141.55(d) or (e)). The FAA notes that the regulations do not place a limit on the amount of time that a person may train in an ATD. Rather, the regulations place a limit on the amount of time in an ATD that may be credited toward the minimum aeronautical experience requirements for an instrument rating. Operators may continue to use these devices to improve pilot proficiency and potentially reduce the overall time required in an aircraft. In addition, those devices that were issued an LOA that terminated on January 1, 2015, may continue to use the device for pilot proficiency and training. However, any time logged in such a device could not be used to meet any aeronautical experience requirements of part 61, or any of the flight training coursework requirements of part 141.
 
"...these devices do not provide appropriate sensory cues or provide a realistic environment."

Unlike full-motion sims that lean back to tell you you're accelerating at the same time they give conflicting information to your inner ear that you're pitching up, meanwhile telling your eyes that your pitch attitude hasn't changed....Can you say "vertigo generator"?
 
For IFR ops the motion doesn't really help or hurt IMO.

Too bad, I hope this doesn't discourage students from using ATDs, after all it's how the big boys do it.
 
IMC ops aren't so bad, but I've had just enough guys puke in the sim doing visual ops that I watch for it.:yikes:
 
Boooo!! What a bunch of malarkey. Low cost ATD's & AATD's are some of the best things to hit aviation training since fuel injection. This halting of progress over unfounded comments is shameful.
Those systems make safer and more knowledgeable pilots, being able to train in an environment that can be paused. Then go execute in the expensive fault ridden airplane.

Luckily some 141 flight schools have their agreements that supersede any guide ruling, so they won't be in trouble.

Let's just keep magnetos and leaded fuel around forever too... That makes perfect sense.

Sensory cues..... pffft.
 
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For IFR ops the motion doesn't really help or hurt IMO.

Too bad, I hope this doesn't discourage students from using ATDs, after all it's how the big boys do it.

Actually I think it is good training. Your eyes are seeing something your ears don't sense. Good training to trust the gauges and not what your ears/body sense.

Of course, that is based on using a device that is more capable than just a toy.
 
The negative comments came from two individuals, neither of whom do instrument training, and if you read them, you'll see they're totally bogus. However, by law, the FAA is barred from completing the Direct Final Rule process if any negative comments are received. The folks in AFS-800 are royally peeved over this, but have no choice under the Administrative Procedures Act but to initiate the full NPRM process, probably delaying implementation of this no-brainer rule change for maybe two years. :mad:
 
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The FAA is withdrawing the direct final rule because the agency received adverse comments to the rule. The agency is obligated by Sec. 11.13 to withdraw a direct final rule if the agency receives any adverse comments.
Either I am not reading this correctly or I don't understand the process. I can't imagine a rule which does not receive any adverse comments. People will never agree 100% on anything.
 
Either I am not reading this correctly or I don't understand the process. I can't imagine a rule which does not receive any adverse comments. People will never agree 100% on anything.
You might be surprised. The FAA has done DFR's before successfully, and they were stunned that anyone objected to this one.
 
Either I am not reading this correctly or I don't understand the process. I can't imagine a rule which does not receive any adverse comments. People will never agree 100% on anything.

Quite a few go direct-to-final without any comment at all. And then there's a process for an emergency final rule with says "we don't care WHAT your comments are". I believe the SFRA/FRZ changes were done this way, I don't think they went through a a normal change and I know that there would have been opposition to a direct final rule.
 
You might be surprised. The FAA has done DFR's before successfully, and they were stunned that anyone objected to this one.
I guess all the bitching an moaning you see about rule changes is just that and very few care enough to actually go through the process of submitting an adverse comment to a rule.
 
I guess all the bitching an moaning you see about rule changes is just that and very few care enough to actually go through the process of submitting an adverse comment to a rule.

You can comment on proposed changes easier than you can post here. Most folks don't comment because they don't know that something's open for comments.
 
Too bad they didn't take AOPA's view...

For the foregoing reasons, AOPA respectfully suggests that the designated comment should be considered “insubstantial” and, accordingly, not “adverse” under the criteria that govern this type of rulemaking.

The guy is basically saying ALL flight training should be done in airplanes. I agree with Ron's assessment...totally bogus.
 
There is a place in training for sims. The airplane is good but gets expensive,when doing all the repetition in prep for the IFR ride.
 
You can comment on proposed changes easier than you can post here. Most folks don't comment because they don't know that something's open for comments.
I can see why most folks don't comment, but to say that a rule can be withdrawn if it receives any adverse comments doesn't sound correct to me. There are certainly people out there who like to comment on things in an official way.
 
I can see why most folks don't comment, but to say that a rule can be withdrawn if it receives any adverse comments doesn't sound correct to me.

That's only for the "final Direct Rule" method, which bypasses the NPRM process. As Ron indicated, the next step is an NPRM, which doesn't require 100% agreement to pass.
 
I can see why most folks don't comment, but to say that a rule can be withdrawn if it receives any adverse comments doesn't sound correct to me.
That is true for the full rulemaking process, but not for a Direct Final Rule, a which bypasses the normal NPRM system. See 14 CFR Part 11 and the Administrative Procedures Act for details. Not only can it be withdrawn, but it must be withdrawn if there are any adverse comments -- even one.
 
That is true for the full rulemaking process, but not for a Direct Final Rule, a which bypasses the normal NPRM system. See 14 CFR Part 11 and the Administrative Procedures Act for details. Not only can it be withdrawn, but it must be withdrawn if there are any adverse comments -- even one.


In that case it would seem to be a risky method to use since there is always going to be that one person., as was the case here when there were two.
 
In that case it would seem to be a risky method to use since there is always going to be that one person., as was the case here when there were two.

Not always. It's a regulatory shortcut, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

It's really most useful for corrections or non-substantive changes.
 
The negative comments came from two individuals, neither of whom do instrument training, and if you read them, you'll see they're totally bogus. However, by law, the FAA is barred from completing the Direct Final Rule process if any negative comments are received. The folks in AFS-800 are royally peeved over this, but have no choice under the Administrative Procedures Act but to initiate the full NPRM process, probably delaying implementation of this no-brainer rule change for maybe two years. :mad:

I think that's pessimistic.

For one, they really don't need to go back and redraft the rule and coordinate it through all the FAA offices. They've all signed off on it.

They just need to publish the NPRM, review and respond to comments.

They could publish the NPRM by the end of the month (remember what I said about the internal coordination being done already?) APA specifies a 60 comment period, then a 30 day reply period. Say another 30 days for the FAA to publish the Final Rule, and it would take effect 60 days hence, so 6 months.

Normally, I'm very pessimistic about such things, but in this case, all the pre-work has been done.
 
And in this case, the FAA folks involved didn't have the remotest thought that anyone would object. At the same time, they wanted to get this one done ASAP in order to enhance training and get rid of that stupid hood-in-the-sim rule. Now they have to go back and do the full NPRM process, and they really have a lot of other things the want to do with their time
 
Leave it to total idiots on them Interwebs to derail a simple and useful rule making.
The general populus, albeit dumb as a rock, always wins. The secret is in numbers. Which, ironically, only a small fraction of the Earth's population understands. :)

Jeff, love your avatar. :)
 
And in this case, the FAA folks involved didn't have the remotest thought that anyone would object. At the same time, they wanted to get this one done ASAP in order to enhance training and get rid of that stupid hood-in-the-sim rule. Now they have to go back and do the full NPRM process, and they really have a lot of other things the want to do with their time

Or they could publish a final rule with a request for comments ending after the effective date.
 
I can see why most folks don't comment, but to say that a rule can be withdrawn if it receives any adverse comments doesn't sound correct to me. There are certainly people out there who like to comment on things in an official way.

Most items that go through the 14 CFR 11.13 Direct Final Rule process don't get picked up by industry media. This one did, and as expected got comments.

My guess is the commenter probably did not realize his single comment would derail the process. Then again, maybe he did.
 
One adverse comment sinks the change? I am reminded of the teen who calls in fake bomb threats just to get out of school. This kind of thinking puts too much power in the hands of individuals with an axe to grind.

Bob Gardner
 
One adverse comment sinks the change?
Yup -- that's the law (14 CFR 11.31b2) regarding a Direct Final Rule (which bypasses the normal NPRM rulemaking process), unless the adverse comment is determined to be "frivolous or insubstantial", which, regarding this one, Flight Standards propose but the Chief Counsel's office rejected.

I am reminded of the teen who calls in fake bomb threats just to get out of school. This kind of thinking puts too much power in the hands of individuals with an axe to grind.
I think that's a fair assessment. Personally, I agree with Flight Standards on the "frivolous or insubstantial" nature of this one, but the lawyers make the final call on that, and that brings us back to "too much power in the hands of individuals with an axe to grind".
 
Yup -- that's the law (14 CFR 11.31b2) regarding a Direct Final Rule (which bypasses the normal NPRM rulemaking process), unless the adverse comment is determined to be "frivolous or insubstantial", which, regarding this one, Flight Standards propose but the Chief Counsel's office rejected.

I think that's a fair assessment. Personally, I agree with Flight Standards on the "frivolous or insubstantial" nature of this one, but the lawyers make the final call on that, and that brings us back to "too much power in the hands of individuals with an axe to grind".

Sounds better than bureaucrats making royal decrees. Even if I like the decree.
 
Sounds better than bureaucrats making royal decrees. Even if I like the decree.
This was hardly a "royal decree" -- it was a smart and well-thought-out change to which nobody who knows diddley-poo about instrument training could be expected to object.
 
This was hardly a "royal decree" -- it was a smart and well-thought-out change to which nobody who knows diddley-poo about instrument training could be expected to object.

In your opinion.

EDIT: sorry, that was abrasive. I was more referring to the process than the content of this particular rule.
 
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Boooo!! What a bunch of malarkey. Low cost ATD's & AATD's are some of the best things to hit aviation training since fuel injection. This halting of progress over unfounded comments is shameful.
Those systems make safer and more knowledgeable pilots, being able to train in an environment that can be paused. Then go execute in the expensive fault ridden airplane.

Luckily some 141 flight schools have their agreements that supersede any guide ruling, so they won't be in trouble.

Let's just keep magnetos and leaded fuel around forever too... That makes perfect sense.

Sensory cues..... pffft.

Doesn't say you have to quit using them at 10 hrs, just says that is all you can use toward the minimum times for the rating.
 
I found it interesting that a single negative comment requires a rescinding of the order. That doesn't really equate to the "Out of control rule making ability" so often touted as the destructive power of the FAA.
 
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