FAA vs NTSB for investigations

Doc Holliday said:
I take it you’re aware the FAA and the NTSB attend the same courses and receive the same certifications.

Also, the NTSB is involved with accident investigation full time, while it’s an additional duty of the FAA ASI. But the techniques and procedures are the same.
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Yes I am aware of and understand these things, thus my comment about laziness or ineptness, or perhaps as you suggest, they're just too busy to truly do a thorough job.

Also, as you know, just because 2 different people attended the same class, does not mean they are both going to be equal. A lot has to do with additional or follow-up training, the individual, the management and leadership, policy, expectations, time available, being held to a higher standard, etc.

But in my limited personal experience, as I said, sometimes it's obvious, to even the uninitiated, that the report just doesn't' add up to the evidence obtained at the scene.

To answer your previous question, it was in Arizona at one of the top 10 academies in the nation at the time.
 
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SToL said:
Yes I am aware of and understand these things, thus my comment about laziness or ineptness, or perhaps as you suggest, they're just too busy to truly do a thorough job.

Also, as you know, just because 2 different people attended the same class, does not mean they are both going to be equal. A lot has to do with additional or follow-up training, the individual, the management and leadership, time available, etc.

But in my limited personal experience, as I said, sometimes it's obvious, to even the uninitiated, that the report just doesn't' add up to the evidence obtained at the scene.

To answer your previous question, it was in Arizona at one of the top 10 academies in the nation at the time.
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What academy? What specific aviation accident investigation courses were offered?

And the NTSB finalizes every accident report. If they (NTSB) feel anything is lacking the report is sent back for more info. The NTSB has the final say on all reports.
 
Doc Holliday said:
What academy? What specific aviation accident investigation courses were offered?

And the NTSB finalizes every accident report. If they (NTSB) feel anything is lacking the report is sent back for more info. The NTSB has the final say on all reports.
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No kidding? Well why don't they just call it the Final NTSB report? I'm not sure why you're so defensive, I didn't mean to step on your toes. I'm just telling you what I've seen on more than one occasion, from my own personal, on site experience and photographs taken at the scene.

I'm not saying all reports are wrong, or even most of them. I am saying there have been times that it's so glaringly obvious that the report just doesn't match the scene, you just shake your head. No entity, or person is perfect, mistakes (or laziness) happens, and the FAA or NTSB is not exempt. Seriously, how accurate can a report be if they didn't even bother to go to the actual scene? I've been on several where because of location, they never went.

You are free to argue on about it if you want, but I've made my comments, I stand behind what I've said and I have no interest in trying to justify myself to you. Maybe I'm completely wrong and don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or maybe I'm being truthful and speaking from experience. It's your choice to accept it or not, but I'm not going to continue just to satisfy you.
 
SToL said:
No kidding? Well why don't they just call it the Final NTSB report? I'm not sure why you're so defensive, I didn't mean to step on your toes. I'm just telling you what I've seen on more than one occasion, from my own personal, on site experience and photographs taken at the scene.

I'm not saying all reports are wrong, or even most of them. I am saying there have been times that it's so glaringly obvious that the report just doesn't match the scene, you just shake your head. No entity, or person is perfect, mistakes (or laziness) happens, and the FAA or NTSB is not exempt. Seriously, how accurate can a report be if they didn't even bother to go to the actual scene? I've been on several where because of location, they never went.

You are free to argue on about it if you want, but I've made my comments, I stand behind what I've said and I have no interest in trying to justify myself to you. Maybe I'm completely wrong and don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or maybe I'm being truthful and speaking from experience. It's your choice to accept it or not, but I'm not going to continue just to satisfy you.
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my glorious interaction with the NTSB was an inspector in Hawaii conducting an investigation on an accident in the Rocky Mountain region. He did everything over the phone... it was clear there was an ulterior motive by the time it was all over with ... career progression in a large bureaucracy can be a real *****. Sometimes a fellow just has to make his own reality.
 
SToL said:
No kidding? Well why don't they just call it the Final NTSB report? I'm not sure why you're so defensive, I didn't mean to step on your toes. I'm just telling you what I've seen on more than one occasion, from my own personal, on site experience and photographs taken at the scene.

I'm not saying all reports are wrong, or even most of them. I am saying there have been times that it's so glaringly obvious that the report just doesn't match the scene, you just shake your head. No entity, or person is perfect, mistakes (or laziness) happens, and the FAA or NTSB is not exempt. Seriously, how accurate can a report be if they didn't even bother to go to the actual scene? I've been on several where because of location, they never went.

You are free to argue on about it if you want, but I've made my comments, I stand behind what I've said and I have no interest in trying to justify myself to you. Maybe I'm completely wrong and don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or maybe I'm being truthful and speaking from experience. It's your choice to accept it or not, but I'm not going to continue just to satisfy you.
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Not defensive.

It just helps to know facts when discussing a subject.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
my glorious interaction with the NTSB was an inspector in Hawaii conducting an investigation on an accident in the Rocky Mountain region. He did everything over the phone... it was clear there was an ulterior motive by the time it was all over with ... career progression in a large bureaucracy can be a real *****. Sometimes a fellow just has to make his own reality.
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What accident was this?
 
Doc Holliday said:
Not so in aviation accident investigations.
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Wishful thinking.

The NTSB is just as susceptible to human error and bias as anyone else. By and large, the products coming out of that organization right now might as well be written by internet armchair experts.

In my work with the DOJ on transportation cases in the last two years, I have seen a lead investigator wined and dined by lobbyists directly connected to a company involved in the accident.

I have scene investigators ignore data provided by the FAA when it didn’t fit their preconceived notion of what happened.

I have seen the NTSB include falsified statements from crew members in a final report even though the evidence proving the statements were false was provided to the Board well before they adopted the report.

I’d trust the FAA far more than I’d trust anything coming out of the NTSB right now.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Wishful thinking.

The NTSB is just as susceptible to human error and bias as anyone else. By and large, the products coming out of that organization right now might as well be written by internet armchair experts.

In my work with the DOJ on transportation cases in the last two years, I have seen a lead investigator wined and dined by lobbyists directly connected to a company involved in the accident.

I have scene investigators ignore data provided by the FAA when it didn’t fit their preconceived notion of what happened.

I have seen the NTSB include falsified statements from crew members in a final report even though the evidence proving the statements were false was provided to the Board well before they adopted the report.

I’d trust the FAA far more than I’d trust anything coming out of the NTSB right now.
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Curious, what we’re these accidents on?
 
Doc Holliday said:
From your description it just sounded interesting.

Not sure what “large bureaucracy” you are talking about, the NTSB is rather small as government agencies go.
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It’s big compared to one person. Saying it’s small for a government agency says more about other agencies than the NTSB.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s big compared to one person. Saying it’s small for a government agency says more about other agencies than the NTSB.
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I only bring up the size of the agency because it is very small, and it's one of the few agencies that answer directly to the President. The size of the NTSB is also the reason they farm out investigations. Also keep in mind the NTSB does more than aviation.

Interesting how a discussion on Human Factors in Aviation Accident Investigation has devolved in this thread.
 
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